Preparing for checkride with instructor but...

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davef22

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Dave
Hi All,

Just a bit of background..I have been working on PPL and done with all requirements (solo time, X-country,hood time etc). I am working with my instructor to get the OK for a final check-ride. Due to family,job,time constraints it has been hard for me in general and it is costing me $$ as well. I have gone up for 4 mock check rides and had to review on short-field/soft field landing but suddenly my previous flight..slow flight become an issue but I got that out of the way as well. Has anyone had this kind of issue where they got so far in their training and feel drained about not able to do a good short-field landing or get an OK from their instructor? This is getting expensive for me but I don't want to give up at the last moment. The oral exam preparation has been good and my instructor is pleased as well. Any tips on how to nail the short-field landing/take-off will help me.

Thank you!
 
To help you in a more directed manner, what has been going wrong on these take offs and landings?
 
The short field take-offs and landings..it had been a while since I did them. My prev flight..I confused short field procedure with soft field take-offs. It is more of a proficiency issue. I picked a point for the short field but was a little short of it and then landing on the center line was an issue. Soft field take offs..I am ok with it. It is just that I have come so far and want to nail these down. For short field I pick the 1000 feet markers and then try to be 90-100 feet at the numbers and then land. Is this ok?
 
I think the place you are in - feeling drained - is quite common. I am sort of there myself... I have found that I perfect one thing, and then another issue pops up, where there was none before. And it is hard to find time to get everything right when there is work and family, as well. That is just life.
One thing my instructor said was okay to do was to write up procedures on index cards, and refer to them in the check-ride if necessary. I have done that for short and soft-field takeoffs and landings - being able to refer to them takes some of the stress away. Otherwise, don't give up. We are so nearly there! I can't even imagine how I will feel when it's all over. Even more drained probably! But happy.
 
davef22 said:
Any tips on how to nail the short-field landing/take-off will help me.
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Yes, go to an actual short field with your instructor, say, about 2200' long with some real trees. when you've nailed it there five out of five times, go back to your long instrument runway and use exact the same technique.

dtuuri
 
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AnnaG said:
I think the place you are in - feeling drained - is quite common. I am sort of there myself... I have found that I perfect one thing, and then another issue pops up, where there was none before.
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This is exactly what happened in my previous flight. Never had issues with slow-flight and all of a sudden I had issues with it but squared it away. End of the day, wasnt able to to do the check-ride which means more $$$ to get this right. Are you preparing for your check-ride at the moment?
 
dtuuri said:
Yes, go to an actual short field with your instructor, say, about 2200' long with some real trees. when you've nailed it there five out of five times, go back to your long instrument runway and use exact the same technique.

dtuuri
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Thanks for the tip.
 
I didn't really "get" soft-field landings until the day before my checkride. Hang in there.
 
davef22 said:
The short field take-offs and landings..it had been a while since I did them. My prev flight..I confused short field procedure with soft field take-offs. It is more of a proficiency issue. I picked a point for the short field but was a little short of it and then landing on the center line was an issue. Soft field take offs..I am ok with it. It is just that I have come so far and want to nail these down. For short field I pick the 1000 feet markers and then try to be 90-100 feet at the numbers and then land. Is this ok?
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It would not be OK with me as your instructor. The PTS calls for touchdown within 200 feet of a designated point, and if I am your DE that point will be just beyond the numbers. IMHO 90-100 feet over the numbers is way too high and is a habit that you should lose in a hurry...you are giving up a lot of usable landing surface.



Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
IMHO 90-100 feet over the numbers is way too high and is a habit that you should lose in a hurry...you are giving up a lot of usable landing surface.
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Unless you're landing at a Class C airport where a jet just landed at the 1000 foot touchdown zone. Then, it's about right for a landing 2000 feet past the numbers.

It is a VERY useful skill for a pilot to be able to land ON the numbers, or any other designated point on the runway.

Note that you have to remain above the PAPI/VASI/whatever on approach, but not over the runway. You can go below it in Class B/C/D when necessary for a safe landing. See 14 CFR 91.129(e)(3). Landing on the numbers is still a landing. Sometimes the visual glideslope will push you up to 50 feet over the numbers (that's 1000 feet downrange at 3 deg slope), not 100. You can lose 50 feet in a hurry cutting the power to idle with full flap at a 60 KIAS approach in a 172. If you can't lose it, you're probably too fast. ALL short field landings should be made at full flap and idle power at minimum safe speed.
 
davef22 said:
Hi All,

Just a bit of background..I have been working on PPL and done with all requirements (solo time, X-country,hood time etc). I am working with my instructor to get the OK for a final check-ride. Due to family,job,time constraints it has been hard for me in general and it is costing me $$ as well. I have gone up for 4 mock check rides and had to review on short-field/soft field landing but suddenly my previous flight..slow flight become an issue but I got that out of the way as well. Has anyone had this kind of issue where they got so far in their training and feel drained about not able to do a good short-field landing or get an OK from their instructor? This is getting expensive for me but I don't want to give up at the last moment. The oral exam preparation has been good and my instructor is pleased as well. Any tips on how to nail the short-field landing/take-off will help me.

Thank you!
Click to expand...

You are over prepping. Take the checkride, if you fail part of it, you can redo just that part. Get out there, get er done.
 
dtuuri said:
Yes, go to an actual short field with your instructor, say, about 2200' long with some real trees. when you've nailed it there five out of five times, go back to your long instrument runway and use exact the same technique.

dtuuri
Click to expand...
This is a good suggestion
 
CTLSi said:
You are over prepping. Take the checkride, if you fail part of it, you can redo just that part. Get out there, get er done.
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:confused: How is the OP overprepping? His short/soft field takeoffs and landings are not up to par according to his CFI. He should be able to do everything on the PTS to the specified tolerances. This is pretty terrible advice.
 
jordane93 said:
:confused: How is the OP overprepping? His short/soft field takeoffs and landings are not up to par according to his CFI. He should be able to do everything on the PTS to the specified tolerances. This is pretty terrible advice.
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Okay, it might be bad advise. But consider he has done the training by his own admission, and he says he has paid for and taken four mock checkrides.

If he can't do it by now, he probably will never be able to. Or he is over prepping and freaking out and needs to get it over with and find out for real if he is deficient in front of the DPE, not his CFI.

If he doesn't want to chance the checkride, then he should go to a far away field and get in the plane with a completely different CFI and see if there is consensus on his deficiencies.

One thing for sure, he is spinning his wheels by going back up with his current CFI. If he wasn't he would be taking his checkride right now.
 
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CTLSi said:
If he doesn't want to chance the checkride, then he should go to a far away field and get in the plane with a CFI and see if there is consensus on his deficiencies.

One thing for sure, he is spinning his wheels by going back up with his current CFI. If he wasn't he would be taking his checkride right now.
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Agreed. It is a good idea and most schools have a policy of taking the mock checkride with the Chief CFI or another instructor just to get another view. I'm not sure if the OP did his four mock rides with different CFI's.
 
Taking another mock check ride is the wrong technique, but he's not over prepping if he's screwing up.

The check ride is a test of safety. If he can't perform the relevant techniques reliably safely, he can get himself in a bind.

Now, it's entirely possible that nerves are playing a role. Checkrides are an astonishing head game. If that's truly relevant, that issue needs addressing more than the techniques. Though the short field technique described above has a lot of traps in it.

The usual advice when stuck at a given level is to try ONE lesson with a different instructor.
 
davef22 said:
This is exactly what happened in my previous flight. Never had issues with slow-flight and all of a sudden I had issues with it but squared it away. End of the day, wasnt able to to do the check-ride which means more $$$ to get this right. Are you preparing for your check-ride at the moment?
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm scheduled for this Sunday. I do think nerves and general mental tiredness are part of the problem. I fly so much better when I'm relaxed, and according to my CFI, I should try and "have fun". So that's what I am going to do. I agree that the check ride prep and exam itself are mentally very tough.
 
My issue is about proficiency...but other than the short-field, the other maneuvers have been great. I could tell from my prev flight that I wasn't ready for the check-ride because of my short-field take-off/landings. I have had the mock check rides with one other instructor earlier. Even X Country,diversions,Steep turns, S-turns, Stalls and turns around a point are not an issue...my concern was in the end of their training , do people get nervous and goof up on maneuvers? Thank you all for your advice.
 
davef22 said:
My issue is about proficiency...but other than the short-field, the other maneuvers have been great. I could tell from my prev flight that I wasn't ready for the check-ride because of my short-field take-off/landings. I have had the mock check rides with one other instructor earlier. Even X Country,diversions,Steep turns, S-turns, Stalls and turns around a point are not an issue...my concern was in the end of their training , do people get nervous and goof up on maneuvers? Thank you all for your advice.
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By proficiency, I'm assuming you are referring to consistency. I guess what I was wondering is how you can be consistent when trying to be 100 ft above the numbers rather than having an aiming point on the runway. 100 ft in altitude can have a significant impact on consistency depending on winds. Especially when you have a limited window in your approach speed. A 10 knot head wind by the time you lose 100 ft altitude will be quite different from having no head wind or having a crosswind. If you have an aiming point (maybe on of the center lines) for rounding out 15 feet or so above the ground your touchdown points should be more consistent. Also, you'll be aiming for the center line and maybe you can kill two birds with one stone.
 
Keep in mind that the short field landing objective is to land in the zone between the designated point and another point 200 feet beyond the designated point. Since you get the same passing grade for touching down anywhere in the zone, give yourself the best chance to land in that zone by aiming to touch down not on the designated point, but 100 feet beyond it, i.e., in the middle of the designated zone. I think things will go better for you if you try that.

IOW, if you aim for the designated point and land 1 foot short, you fail. OTOH, if you aim to touch down in the middle of the zone and land up to 99 feet long or short of that middle, you pass. Which seems easier to you? So take some pressure off yourself and do it the easier way.

Of course, you will have to pick a visual aim point maybe 200-300 short of your intended touchdown point to allow for the flare, but to maximize your chance of success, you should base your visual aim point on the middle of the zone, not on the beginning of the zone.
 
My advise is based on my prep techniques for the check rides I have taken over the years.
1. Relax - not be lazy or sloppy, just mentally downshift the pressure of the check ride. This is not a one shot and life is over kind of thing. Self induced mental pressure will cause you to second guess things that you really know already. You should have set personal performance expectations for flight maneuvers. I would hope those expectations are more strict than the PTS. So instead of worrying about making the examiner happy, fly to your standards. It's just a mental game, but it always worked for me.
2. Do not underestimate the effect mental practice can have on your performance. You are struggling with short field techniques, very normal. Things happen quickly at the end of an approach and its easy to get behind. Spend some time in your favorite chair at home with your eyes closed and hands on the controls and you imagine each step of the procedure. Landings are not a muscle memory item, they are a thinking action. Sure there are certain things we do the same, these are checklist items! Get your mind used to dealing with dynamic parts of the landing.
3. Trust your CFI. I might be in the minority, but in 20 years of flying I have had only one out of countless CFIs that I felt wasn't worth listening too. Without knowing your guy personally, I can't guarantee he is doing things right but it sounds like he is making the effort to make sure you are prepared. That is a good thing. When he says you are ready then be confident in that judgement and just go do what you have trained to.

I know these aren't specific but they are a vital part of what has been successful for me and helped me get through 6 different check rides.

Best of luck!
Stan
 
AnnaG said:
Yes, I'm scheduled for this Sunday. I do think nerves and general mental tiredness are part of the problem. I fly so much better when I'm relaxed, and according to my CFI, I should try and "have fun". So that's what I am going to do. I agree that the check ride prep and exam itself are mentally very tough.
Click to expand...

The DPE knows you are nervous and expects you to make a mistake or two. How you handle recovering from a mistake is more important than making the mistake.

The real purpose of a checkride is to see if you are safe to fly, and have a working knowledge of the basics and can demonstrate them to your 'passenger' DPE.

Remember, the DPE is not the PIC, you are...if it helps, pretend he/she isn't there, and fly like you do when you are alone. If you don't understand what you are supposed to do next...ask first, then execute the maneuver.

The only thing they don't like is a candidate asking HOW to do the maneuver. You should already know that... So if you have to do that, you will fail that part...so before going up, make sure you know how to do each thing listed in the PTS.

The anticipation of the checkride is far worse than the reality.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Keep in mind that the short field landing objective is to land in the zone between the designated point and another point 200 feet beyond the designated point. Since you get the same passing grade for touching down anywhere in the zone, give yourself the best chance to land in that zone by aiming to touch down not on the designated point, but 100 feet beyond it, i.e., in the middle of the designated zone. I think things will go better for you if you try that.

IOW, if you aim for the designated point and land 1 foot short, you fail. OTOH, if you aim to touch down in the middle of the zone and land up to 99 feet long or short of that middle, you pass. Which seems easier to you? So take some pressure off yourself and do it the easier way.

Of course, you will have to pick a visual aim point maybe 200-300 short of your intended touchdown point to allow for the flare, but to maximize your chance of success, you should base your visual aim point on the middle of the zone, not on the beginning of the zone.
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Thanks for the tip and will keep that in mind.
 
My CFI is a good instructor and no doubt on that. I should learn to just relax and treat the flight as just another flight but with a passenger I guess and at the same time be a good pilot :).
 
AnnaG said:
Yes, I'm scheduled for this Sunday. I do think nerves and general mental tiredness are part of the problem. I fly so much better when I'm relaxed, and according to my CFI, I should try and "have fun". So that's what I am going to do. I agree that the check ride prep and exam itself are mentally very tough.
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All the very best for your check-ride. It will be great if you can come up with a post on how it went and what was asked by the examiner. I am sure it will be helpful to all who are in the same boat like me :).
 
Ron Levy said:
IOW, if you aim for the designated point and land 1 foot short, you fail. OTOH, if you aim to touch down in the middle of the zone and land up to 99 feet long or short of that middle, you pass. Which seems easier to you? So take some pressure off yourself and do it the easier way.
Click to expand...

All true, but I've personally never heard of someone landing short. Landing long seems to happen just about every time.
 
davef22 said:
Thanks for the tip and will keep that in mind.
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BTW, this also goes for altitude on final on an instrument checkride. Up to the final approach fix, you're allowed +/- 100 feet. Once on final on a nonprecision approach, your altitude window is MDA +100/=0 feet. If you aim for MDA exactly, 1 foot low is a bust, so aim 50 high, and you've got a 50-foot buffer either side to play with. ;)

No doubt you can find other aviation applications of the Sundance Kid Rule of Aiming.
William Goldman said:
Sundance: Can you take the two on the right?
Butch: Kid, there's something I think I ought to tell you. I never shot anybody before.
Sundance: One hell of a time to tell me. Try for the two on the right -- dead center. That way, if you miss a little, you'll still hit something.
Click to expand...
 
MAKG1 said:
All true, but I've personally never heard of someone landing short. Landing long seems to happen just about every time.
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You only need to spend a few years training people to see it enough times to frustrate you. But I suspect one reason for long landings is the result of fear of landing short. OTOH, if you know you have some wriggle room both ways, you won't worry so much about landing short that you land too long. :dunno:
 
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This worked for me the other day when I was with a new instructor. He had me aim for the 1000' markers a couple times for my touchdown before trying to land on the number. It helped me get over the mental hurdle of aiming so far in front of the threshold. I had to do the same thing the next day when solo because of the difference in weight. Now that I said that I'll never be able to do another short field landing right again.
 
Hello All,
Due to financial reasons, I am thinking of taking a break and completing my training later. Has anyone taken a break and come back to finish their check-ride at a flight-school? For example, lets say I plan to get back after 2 years , do we have to again do our solo XCountry and solo time? Apart from getting used to flying after a long break, will an instructor/flight school want me to do the solo XCountry, solo time again? Has anyone done this in the past?
 
If you are within $1000 of completing, taking an extended break may cost as much as twice that to regain skills and proficiency to PTS standards. Flying is a set of very perishable skills. Sitting out will cause a loss of edge that can be expensive to regain. I advise against stopping if you are as close to finishing as you reported above.

Can you pick up extra work hours or some local odd jobs to fill the money gap? Have a garage sale? Trim the fat out of the household budget? (quit going out to eat, cancel cable TV, reduce cell phone service, forego buying the semi-expensive toy)

If initial flight training is putting a big squeeze on your personal financial situation, I need to warn you it only gets worse from here. There's always the next item for the cockpit. There will be the rental costs to get more hamburgers, pancakes, and add a pin to your airports visited map. Subscriptions to EFB's. Maybe purchase of an aircraft. Maybe joining an ownership club.

I think the plan might be, squeeze out the money needed to finish your license. Enjoy the success of accomplishing something very few in our country do. Then read a book like The Total Money Makeover (or equivalent) to improve your financial standing and add peace to your money situation.

Once peace has been achieved, the flying gets more fun and you enjoy it more.
 
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davef22 said:
Hello All,
Due to financial reasons, I am thinking of taking a break and completing my training later. Has anyone taken a break and come back to finish their check-ride at a flight-school? For example, lets say I plan to get back after 2 years , do we have to again do our solo XCountry and solo time? Apart from getting used to flying after a long break, will an instructor/flight school want me to do the solo XCountry, solo time again? Has anyone done this in the past?
Click to expand...

Once completed, those requirements live on, even if you come back after 20 years. Keep your logs in a safe place, and make photocopies.

Bob Gardner
 
Thanks bobmrg and AggieMike88 for your responses.
Aggie - I don't have cable or go out to eat often:). We ran into some car expenses and have a couple of credit-card bill payments towards my previous 2 flights to pay for. They were pretty long flights which means more $$$ :(.

Initially the plan was to go and fly this Saturday, Monday and then have the check-ride if my instructor signs off on Tuesday. But due to my car issues which is an unavoidable expense, I had to cancel these flights. Next Saturday I go back again with my instructor and then we will schedule the 2 flights - one with instructor just before the check-ride and then the check-ride.

Guys has anyone had to cancel their check-ride? My worry is when I go for my check-ride later (may be 2 weeks from now), the DPE won't be happy about me cancelling his appointment.
 
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davef22 said:
Due to financial reasons, I am thinking of taking a break and completing my training later. Has anyone taken a break and come back to finish their check-ride at a flight-school? For example, lets say I plan to get back after 2 years , do we have to again do our solo XCountry and solo time?
Click to expand...
No. Once you have the hours, they're good forever (as long as you still have your logbook). All you need then is enough training (with a regulatory minimum of three hours) to gain sufficient proficiency to pass the practical test.

Apart from getting used to flying after a long break, will an instructor/flight school want me to do the solo XCountry, solo time again?
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I suppose there might be some instructor/flight school somewhere which would, for their own reasons, ask for that, but it's not required by the FAA.
 
Cancellations happen for many reasons and happens to DPE's too.

The best thing is to cancel (or postpone) with the examiner as early as possible so he has the chance to fill the time slot with another airman.

Cancelling at the absolute last moment is what causes frustration with the examiner.
 
davef22 said:
Aggie Mike - I don't have cable or go out to eat often:). We ran into some car expenses and have a couple of credit-card bill payments towards my previous 2 flights to pay for. They were pretty long flights which means more $$$ :(.
Click to expand...

Take care of what's needed, but as soon as the check ride is done, it's time to read the book I recommended and work on Baby Step 1. Then kill debt (Step 2).

I did Dave Ramsey's program back starting in April 2008 with nearly $30k of car and card debt. Got super aggressive and was debt free with a large emergency fund a year later. Kept being aggressive and saved the entire training fund so I could start in February of 2010. Got license on Nov. 27, 2010.

Continuing to be smart with money now has me partner in 2 aircraft, still debt free, and on track to be very well set when I decide to that I want to work versus need to work.

Being at peace with the money situation with the right plan and following a budget (that now includes flying) is a big plus in my life.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Take care of what's needed, but as soon as the check ride is done, it's time to read the book I recommended and work on Baby Step 1. Then kill debt (Step 2).

I did Dave Ramsey's program back starting in April 2008 with nearly $30k of car and card debt. Got super aggressive and was debt free with a large emergency fund a year later. Kept being aggressive and saved the entire training fund so I could start in February of 2010. Got license on Nov. 27, 2010.

Continuing to be smart with money now has me partner in 2 aircraft, still debt free, and on track to be very well set when I decide to that I want to work versus need to work.

Being at peace with the money situation with the right plan and following a budget (that now includes flying) is a big plus in my life.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice Mike. Thankfully I am debt free right now and in the future if I have to do anything with regards to flying..I will save up and then do whats needed.
 
Coming up to my checkride I was so stressed out that I started to fall apart. Then to add to it my CFI was in full nitpick mode, and that added even more stress. The day before my ride I was a complete mess when I went up with him and kept blowing a bunch of dumb stuff, to the point he told me he wasn't sure if I should go through with the check ride. I sat and thought about it for a bit and realized that it was the stress getting to me.

I ended up taking the plane up for a couple hours alone and just flew the damn thing. Stalls, slow flight, steep turns, and a bunch of take offs and landings. Doing it all alone with nobody in my ears, and simply judging myself not only helped me to relax a lot, but also forced me to catch my own mistakes. At the end of a couple hours of flying I felt 100% better and went on to pass my ride the next day.
 
Thanks Stinkbug, thats exactly what happened to me. I am looking forward to my next flight on next Saturday with my instructor to do well. I am just going to relax and do this well.
 
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