Precision departure, approach, arrivals question. Who does what?

[Dragos]

So I file an IFR plan from A to B via X, Y, Z nav aids. The departure and approaches are not part of that flight plan.

Does ATC tell me what departure, approach they are using or do I tell them what I want to use?
If ATC selects the departure, approaches, can I request a different one? IE, the departure has me going east but I need to go west.
If ATC selects the departure, approaches, can I reject it? Pilot ratings, equipment, weather, etc?

Thanks,

D

 

[jordane93]

They’ll clear you via a departure procedure or vectors. If you need to go west, they’ll give you a SID or vector that heads towards that way. You can request something else, but that doesn’t mean they’ll give it to you. They’ll advertise which approach is being used in the ATIS. You can also request a different approach, but again, that doesn’t mean they’ll give it to you. You can reject any ATC clearance but you better have a good reason.

 

[bobmrg]

You are PIC. You can always ask for an alternative. You may not get what you want, but you are still the PIC. "Unable" is a useful word.

Despite what you see in movies or on TV, ATC does not control your actions. They tell you what they NEED you to do, and you can accept or refuse...then they come up with Plan B.

This is not something you want to take advantage of on a regular basis.


Bob Gardner

 

[Dragos]

That's what I thought, but I wasn't 100% sure. Thanks for clarifying.

D

 

[John Collins]

I have never been questioned regarding requesting an approach except when it wasn't available or conflicted with the airport landing direction or flow. Most vector SIDs can't be filed and you need to make sure that if you file a SID, the aircraft type is approved (Turbo Jet only) and that your onboard equipment specified in your ICAO flightplan indicates you can fly the type of procedure.

 

[Direct C51]

If you need to go west, they’ll give you a SID or vector that heads towards that way.

There is a third option you didn't mention. If an ODP exists, then you are probably going to get that in a light GA airplane. The ODP will specify how to proceed in each direction if necessary. If no ODP exists, then you will fly a diverse departure, or vectors. SIDs are not going to be given to light aircraft, at least not that I have seen around here. They are really designed for the big guys, which I'm sure is why you mentioned it, flying the big(ish) iron.

As far as the approach goes, ATIS will tell you which approach is in use. If you cannot comply, then request a different approach. If it is untowered, then request the approach you want.

 

[jordane93]

There is a third option you didn't mention. If an ODP exists, then you are probably going to get that in a light GA airplane. The ODP will specify how to proceed in each direction if necessary. If no ODP exists, then you will fly a diverse departure, or vectors. SIDs are not going to be given to light aircraft, at least not that I have seen around here. They are really designed for the big guys, which I'm sure is why you mentioned it, flying the big(ish) iron.

As far as the approach goes, ATIS will tell you which approach is in use. If you cannot comply, then request a different approach. If it is untowered, then request the approach you want.

I get a SID every time I fly out of FRG. It depends on the airport. I’ve also gotten STARs in light aircraft.

 

[Ravioli]

Not sure where @Direct C51 is based, but here in DFW Bravo land the SIDs and STARs are not uncommon.

 

[Direct C51]

I get a SID every time I fly out of FRG. It depends on the airport. I’ve also gotten STARs in light aircraft.

If you are talking about the Republic One SID, then that is kind of cheating.

It might be a SOCAL thing. Maybe it is due to the vast ARTCC coverage, which also gives us things like TEC routes. I have never gotten a SID or STAR unless I was flying along in the Pilatus going up to the flight levels and a few hundred NM away. It is always the ODP on departure and either vectors, direct, or an airway to the IAF when flying in light aircraft.

 

[jordane93]

If you are talking about the Republic One SID, then that is kind of cheating.

It might be a SOCAL thing. Maybe it is due to the vast ARTCC coverage, which also gives us things like TEC routes. I have never gotten a SID or STAR unless I was flying along in the Pilatus going up to the flight levels and a few hundred NM away. It is always the ODP on departure and either vectors, direct, or an airway to the IAF when flying in light aircraft.

I’ve gotten SIDs in light aircraft in the Midwest, south, and all along the Atlantic coast. Like I said, it just depends where you are.

 

[IK04]

If the arrival airport has several approaches with unique IAPs, filing to the IAP for the approach you want usually conveys the desired approach to ATC. Not always, though...

 

[Direct C51]

I’ve gotten SIDs in light aircraft in the Midwest, south, and all along the Atlantic coast. Like I said, it just depends where you are.

Interesting, it has been a long time since I have flown IFR anywhere other than Socal. I suppose I should be thankful for the way we are handled down here. Every SID for any airport in San Diego county specifies "Turbojet and Turboprop only." So you will never get one in a light airplane flying out of San Diego county airports. I am not as familiar with the LA SIDS, but I have a sneaking suspicious it is much the same.

 

[IK04]

Does anyone do "Tower to Tower" clearances any more?

 

[Direct C51]

Does anyone do "Tower to Tower" clearances any more?

Absolutely. It is called Tower Enroute Control (TEC Routes). They are only available in select metropolitan areas of course and are located in the chart supplement (A/FD). If flying between airports with a TEC Route, you will almost always get cleared for the TEC route around here. You can usually avoid the long detours once established on the route by asking for direct to the IAF or another fix along a more direct line.

 

[kayoh190]

Does anyone do "Tower to Tower" clearances any more?

Used to do it in Socal in the Citation all the time. Really easy way to reposition an airplane to a different airport.

 

[IK04]

Used to do it in Socal in the Citation all the time. Really easy way to reposition an airplane to a different airport.

Yeah, I used it all the time in the SF Bay area to move aircraft around to one of the 12 local airports.

I'm glad to hear that TEC is still around and hasn't been absorbed by the airspace cartels...

 

[kayoh190]

I'm glad to hear that TEC is still around and hasn't been absorbed by the airspace cartels...

Well it *has* been a few years for me, but yeah, from what I understand from my buddies still doing corporate/charter down there, the TEC thing is alive and well!

 

[luvflyin]

Absolutely. It is called Tower Enroute Control (TEC Routes). They are only available in select metropolitan areas of course and are located in the chart supplement (A/FD). If flying between airports with a TEC Route, you will almost always get cleared for the TEC route around here. You can usually avoid the long detours once established on the route by asking for direct to the IAF or another fix along a more direct line.

Yeah. There is the Southern California TEC system, the Northern California TEC and the Northeast TEC. All formal programs with Coded routes that stay in Terminal Approach Control airspace. There are other places where you can fly from point A to point B, staying with Approach Controls the entire time, never entering Center airspace. These are by definition Tower to Tower even if a formal TEC system hasn’t been established.

 

[luvflyin]

Interesting, it has been a long time since I have flown IFR anywhere other than Socal. I suppose I should be thankful for the way we are handled down here. Every SID for any airport in San Diego county specifies "Turbojet and Turboprop only." So you will never get one in a light airplane flying out of San Diego county airports. I am not as familiar with the LA SIDS, but I have a sneaking suspicious it is much the same.

SIDS for dinks are common in the SOCAL TEC system and get used. Look farther North. SBA, OXR, VNY, SMO...there are others

 

[PaulS]

The sid from KBED is RV and 2,000 feet, gives you departure frequency too. What you really need to look for is ODPs, they aren't assigned and are not as easy to find using FAA charts. But it's a good idea to fly them in IMC and at night.

 

[luvflyin]

The sid from KBED is RV and 2,000 feet, gives you departure frequency too. What you really need to look for is ODPs, they aren't assigned and are not as easy to find using FAA charts. But it's a good idea to fly them in IMC and at night.

ODP’s can be assigned and there are places where it is done routinely. Since they started assigning obstacle clearance criteria to SIDS, the differences between SIDS and IFR Departure Procedures are not much. When the DP program began, IFR Departure Procedures were renamed ODP’s, but that was the only change. You still found them in the same place, they were textual, not graphic like SIDS although there are a few ODP’s they make Charts for. It’s your choice whether to fly an ODP or not unless they assign it, then you must. And if they assign you something else, like a SID or a heading to fly immediately after departure for vectors, then you may not fly the ODP.

 

[PaulS]

ODP’s can be assigned and there are places where it is done routinely. Since they started assigning obstacle clearance criteria to SIDS, the differences between SIDS and IFR Departure Procedures are not much. When the DP program began, IFR Departure Procedures were renamed ODP’s, but that was the only change. You still found them in the same place, they were textual, not graphic like SIDS although there are a few ODP’s they make Charts for. It’s your choice whether to fly an ODP or not unless they assign it, then you must. And if they assign you something else, like a SID or a heading to fly immediately after departure for vectors, then you may not fly the ODP.

I always look for an odp now, always, just part of my planning, if it's there, I'm flying it. And I would not trust an assigned vector out of a runway with an odp with out comparing it to the odp route if applicable. .

On one of my instrument lessons we flew out of Rutland VT on a low MVFR night. I filed and got the clearance on the ground. After I had the clearance programmed in the GPS my instructor asked if there was an ODP for this runway. I looked and sure enough, there was, I kicked myself in the butt for not checking that as part of my planning. We programmed that into the gps and took off, flying it. I made contact with ATC and the controller asked if had turned on course. I told her we were flying the ODP, she sounded a little exasperated and told me to turn on course after reaching 6,000 feet. I should have given them a heads up on the ground, but whatever, better than flying into the mountain like some other poor guy had done a few years before. I learned a valuable lesson.

 

[Direct C51]

I'm getting the impression that some are embellishing the amount of SIDS they get in light GA aircraft to make a point. Maybe it is the Von Restorff Effect, better remembering the times you did get them because it sticks out. I mean truthfully, what percentage of your IFR departures are you really getting a SID?

I can only speak from my own experience, and can say I have never gotten one in Socal. The other pilots I talk to have also never gotten one. We don't file them, and we do everything we can to expedite our clearance and routing, so that might be partly why. The only SID I have gotten was when right seating in a Pilatus from MYF to SFO while filing for 240 knots and FL240 or something, much different than your normal light GA profile.

What percentage of airports even have SIDS? I would guess it is definitely in the minority, especially considering the most common airports GA aircraft are flying IFR out of (Class D or E usually without Part 121 service).

 

[luvflyin]

I always look for an odp now, always, just part of my planning, if it's there, I'm flying it. And I would not trust an assigned vector out of a runway with an odp with out comparing it to the odp route if applicable. .

On one of my instrument lessons we flew out of Rutland VT on a low MVFR night. I filed and got the clearance on the ground. After I had the clearance programmed in the GPS my instructor asked if there was an ODP for this runway. I looked and sure enough, there was, I kicked myself in the butt for not checking that as part of my planning. We programmed that into the gps and took off, flying it. I made contact with ATC and the controller asked if had turned on course. I told her we were flying the ODP, she sounded a little exasperated and told me to turn on course after reaching 6,000 feet. I should have given them a heads up on the ground, but whatever, better than flying into the mountain like some other poor guy had done a few years before. I learned a valuable lesson.

I think I recall that, you had a thread about it here a while back I think. If I remember right the controller bungled things. Yeah, ya gotta know where the rocks are, where you are and where you are going always. Can you find that and give the link?

 

[luvflyin]

You are PIC. You can always ask for an alternative. You may not get what you want, but you are still the PIC. "Unable" is a useful word.

Despite what you see in movies or on TV, ATC does not control your actions. They tell you what they NEED you to do, and you can accept or refuse...then they come up with Plan B.

This is not something you want to take advantage of on a regular basis.


Bob Gardner

Well put

 

[Direct C51]

I always look for an odp now, always, just part of my planning, if it's there, I'm flying it. And I would not trust an assigned vector out of a runway with an odp with out comparing it to the odp route if applicable. .

On one of my instrument lessons we flew out of Rutland VT on a low MVFR night. I filed and got the clearance on the ground. After I had the clearance programmed in the GPS my instructor asked if there was an ODP for this runway. I looked and sure enough, there was, I kicked myself in the butt for not checking that as part of my planning. We programmed that into the gps and took off, flying it. I made contact with ATC and the controller asked if had turned on course. I told her we were flying the ODP, she sounded a little exasperated and told me to turn on course after reaching 6,000 feet. I should have given them a heads up on the ground, but whatever, better than flying into the mountain like some other poor guy had done a few years before. I learned a valuable lesson.

Am I understanding correctly that your clearance included "...fly heading xxx vectors to xxx..."? If that is so, then terrain/obstacle clearance should have been guaranteed. Also, you are required to comply with those instructions instead of flying the ODP, unless of course you see a problem with it and tell them you are unable to comply. Scary stuff if that is what you got and there was terrain in the way.

 

[PaulS]

Am I understanding correctly that your clearance included "...fly heading xxx vectors to xxx..."? If that is so, then terrain/obstacle clearance should have been guaranteed. Also, you are required to comply with those instructions instead of flying the ODP, unless of course you see a problem with it and tell them you are unable to comply. Scary stuff if that is what you got and there was terrain in the way.

Nope, that wasn't my clearance, there is no approach control there, you talk to center. I was cleared as filed, which was from the airport to a waypoint. At places like that I'll trust but verify if I am given a heading, the penalty for a mistake, mine or theirs it too great.

 

[PaulS]

I think I recall that, you had a thread about it here a while back I think. If I remember right the controller bungled things. Yeah, ya gotta know where the rocks are, where you are and where you are going always. Can you find that and give the link?

Not sure if I posted this one before, I don't think the controller bungled things at all, but I think they had an incoming flight they were keeping separated from us. I was worried after that flight that I should have told the guy giving me the clearance on the ground, but found out that I was under no obligation to fly the ODP nor was I required to tell them, but it is good form to tell them beforehand and to fly them when necessary.

 

[PaulS]

I'm getting the impression that some are embellishing the amount of SIDS they get in light GA aircraft to make a point. Maybe it is the Von Restorff Effect, better remembering the times you did get them because it sticks out. I mean truthfully, what percentage of your IFR departures are you really getting a SID?

I can only speak from my own experience, and can say I have never gotten one in Socal. The other pilots I talk to have also never gotten one. We don't file them, and we do everything we can to expedite our clearance and routing, so that might be partly why. The only SID I have gotten was when right seating in a Pilatus from MYF to SFO while filing for 240 knots and FL240 or something, much different than your normal light GA profile.

What percentage of airports even have SIDS? I would guess it is definitely in the minority, especially considering the most common airports GA aircraft are flying IFR out of (Class D or E usually without Part 121 service).

Just about every IMC departure out of KBED they give the H2 departure, which is pretty simple. My one flight out of Teterboro I got a SID too. Most of my other experience to date is at fields without SIDs. I'm a newby instrument pilot, just sharing what I've experienced so far.

 

[luvflyin]

Not sure if I posted this one before, I don't think the controller bungled things at all, but I think they had an incoming flight they were keeping separated from us. I was worried after that flight that I should have told the guy giving me the clearance on the ground, but found out that I was under no obligation to fly the ODP nor was I required to tell them, but it is good form to tell them beforehand and to fly them when necessary.

What was that first Waypoint in your Clearance? When you flew the ODP did you make 6000 by DYO?

 

[PaulS]

What was that first Waypoint in your Clearance? When you flew the ODP did you make 6000 by DYO?

Pretty sure the first waypoint was Basuu, took off from rwy 19, we made 6,000 well before DYO, I don't have that detail of memory, but it was probably 5 miles or so before dyo when we hit 6,000. The controller cleared us to turn on course when we hit 6,000 I was in an sr22 and it was cold with light snow that night in Rutland. Got my first experience using TKS in a FIKI bird, light rime ice when we were asked to climb to 9 or 10 thousand feet for traffic.

 

[coma24]

To those who are questioning the use of SID for GA aircraft, it's 100% based on the airport which you're departing. I've flown IFR out of KHEF three times, and have gotten the ARSENAL SID 100% of the time. I would surmise, then, that there SOP calls for the issuance of that SID to piston aircraft. I've gotten SIDs out of JFK and ATL in the same aircraft, but that is less surprising. Out of Conroe, TX I was issued the LUFKIN SID the one and only time I flew there.

Also, don't confuse "unable" with "unwilling". The only time I'd use "unable" is if I don't meet the equipment, weather or climb gradient required by the SID. If the SID truly takes you the wrong way (this is relatively rare), then rest assured, ATC will pull you off the SID as soon as traffic flows and MVA permits. They don't want you hanging around any longer than is necessary.

 

[jimhorner]

Aost every time I file IFR out of KSJC, I get the SUNOL or SAN JOSE departure. The SUNOL departure is marked for prop planes only. Both are very efficient at getting a small GA aircraft out of the area and into the system.

Less common is getting the POINT REYES Star, but it happens.

So, getting SIDs and STARs for GA aircraft can be common depending on from where one flys.




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