Pre-Purchase Repairs Questions from First Time Buyer

netsurfr

netsurfr

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Jose
I'm about to start a pre-buy on a PA28 (out of state) and wonder how buyers & sellers typically handle airworthiness squawks that are found during the pre-buy. I'm not too concerned about the small stuff so I'm more curious as to bigger issues such as having to re-hone cylinders, etc...

Do the sellers typically fix that before the buyer completes the transaction OR does the seller simply adjust the price down for the agreed upon cost to repair and seller takes plane and has it done back home?

If the seller should fix it because coming up with an accurate estimate BEFORE actually doing the work is difficult to estimate (e.g. rehoning cylinder but then shop determines valves need work too), then would the buyer get to decide what shop does the repair or would the seller's A&P be acceptable?

Just trying to educate myself as to what happens when something like this comes up so I'm ready.

Thanks!
 
netsurfr said:
I'm about to start a pre-buy on a PA28 (out of state) and wonder how buyers & sellers typically handle airworthiness squawks that are found during the pre-buy. I'm not too concerned about the small stuff so I'm more curious as to bigger issues such as having to re-hone cylinders, etc...

Do the sellers typically fix that before the buyer completes the transaction OR does the seller simply adjust the price down for the agreed upon cost to repair and seller takes plane and has it done back home?

If the seller should fix it because coming up with an accurate estimate BEFORE actually doing the work is difficult to estimate (e.g. rehoning cylinder but then shop determines valves need work too), then would the buyer get to decide what shop does the repair or would the seller's A&P be acceptable?

Just trying to educate myself as to what happens when something like this comes up so I'm ready.

Thanks!
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Everything is negotiable in a used aircraft transaction. Depends on plane, price, and desperation of the seller.
 
Yes I understand but I guess what I'm asking is Would allowing the seller to fix the problem w/ his A&P be a bad idea if we can't agree on an estimate that we'd deduct from the selling price due to unknowns?
 
netsurfr said:
Yes I understand but I guess what I'm asking is Would allowing the seller to fix the problem w/ his A&P be a bad idea if we can't agree on an estimate that we'd deduct from the selling price due to unknowns?
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My preference would be for you and the seller to agree that your inspector will note any airworthiness items and/or undisclosed items. The current owner would pay for your mechanic to make repairs or would deduct the appropriate amount from the price so you could have the repairs made.

Why? If there are hidden issues with the aircraft, the current owner should take the hit - they are his problem since he owns the aircraft. If he has already disclosed them, they should be reflected in the price of the airplane.

I would also prefer that my (your) mechanic make the repairs. He has more interest in making a good repair than the other guy, and besides, do you really want to go back to the owner's mechanic if follow-up work is needed?

Remember, the owner (and therefore a mechanic on his payroll) is motivated to apply the cheapest possible fix to "move" the airplane, regardless of the long term effectiveness of the repair.

For instance, if the airplane had a defective battery (dead cell) that was flagged during inspection, the owner or his mechanic might have a 5 year old, barely serviceable battery that he'd re-install and which might hold a charge long enough to get the airplane home, but little more. Is that the fix you'd want, or would you want a new battery?
 
When I purchased my 182 last year I sent the whole plane through a full annual with my guy and the deal was contingent on the results of that pre-buy then a full annual (which I paid for). After finding a few squawks to be deemed airworthy and a few squawks that came up but were not necessary airworthiness issues, the seller agreed to discount the airworthiness squawks from the purchase price, I paid for the "optional" items and my A/P did it all then I paid the full bill knowing it was done right...or at least with my best interest in mind, not the sellers.

But every deal is negotiable and different.
 
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I would go for a full annual.. Mine is an antique, but I would argue your piper is as well...

It is common to agree anything that would cause the aircraft not to be airworthy is either fixed by the owner-at least becomes a negotiatiation point. (although once the prebuy portion of the annual is over, airworthy problems are on your nickel...

Anyway, I'm still learning myself but the annual on mine (immediately after the prebuy) got a few things that would have been annoying if not fixed when I started flying...
 
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The seller and I agreed on a price. I then had the plane inspected by a shop that was recommended by Savvy. I asked the seller to reduce the price by an amount that the shop estimated for the airworthiness items. If there had been any AD items needed, I would have asked for those as well.
 
Ok thanks guys. In this scenario being that the plane is in a different state all together the A&P doing the pre-buy would not be my guy going forward. I'll see how things evolve and go from there.

What concerns me is that when it comes to cylinder re-honing (which we think may be required in this case and seller will be paying to pull one out to inspect) we would not know how much the repair will be until the cylinders are sent to a specialty shop because they may upon further examination determine that valves may need work to, etc... so in a case like that it's almost like I would want to have the work done before settling on the final price and that would delay closing on the deal and brining the plane back etc... I would also be relying on A&Ps that I don't really know either.
 
You may find, and maybe even likely that you may find the issue is exh valve related and nothing to do with ring seating. Check carefully before committing to remediation.

As for who pays what, everything is negotiable. If the defect is actually an AW concern, then it's subject to negotiation. If it's just cosmetic, or condition, it's something you'll have the A&P evaluate and make your offer based on that.
 
I would either expect a deep discount or to have the aircraft ready to go with no problems before accepting delivery.

Sounds like nobody really knows what's wrong until it's fixed and this sounds potentially expensive.

Or, find another airplane....
 
netsurfr said:
Ok thanks guys. In this scenario being that the plane is in a different state all together the A&P doing the pre-buy would not be my guy going forward. ... I would also be relying on A&Ps that I don't really know either.
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I would recommend you hire savvy mx to manage the prebuy. They are really good at this sort of thing.
 
don't make it into more than it is. You can write anything into the purchase agreement that you want. The seller can tell you to take a hike if s/he wants. It's usually a lot easier to settle the basics with the seller over a cup of coffee before putting pen to paper.
 
I would have the seller take care of any airworthiness issues. Otherwise, you won't he flying out of there. Other issues are on a case by case basis. For example, the seller of my plane advertised it as having working a/c, how every that wasn't the case during prebuy. So a discount was negotiated. My biggest concerns are the basics, are the engine and airframe in good shape. Beyond that I can work with it within reason.
 
As far as aircraft go a PA28 is far from an antique, maybe in the disposable world of today where any thing over a year old falls apart, and no one understands MAINTENANCE.

As for the OPs question, depends on how the aircraft was represented.

If the seller said it's a great plane, noting wrong, would fly it around the world tomorrow. I'd expect the seller to pick up the tab or drop the price accordingly for anything found on the annual.

If it was a, well we fly it every weekend and it hasn't given us troubles, same deal, but maybe I'd cover 10-15% of the work.

If it's a sweet old bird in a hangar that's been sitting for a decade and now sold by the late wife, I'd not expect much/anything, it's a take it or leave it kind of thing.

Just keep in mind, way more people want your money then the dudes plane.
 
NoHeat said:
I would recommend you hire savvy mx to manage the prebuy. They are really good at this sort of thing.
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BULL CHIT!

Most A&Ps understand airworthy stuff, but not evaluations and old lost logs and the like.
 
netsurfr said:
Yes I understand but I guess what I'm asking is Would allowing the seller to fix the problem w/ his A&P be a bad idea if we can't agree on an estimate that we'd deduct from the selling price due to unknowns?
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The typical is that the owner pays for airworthiness items and the get repaired then.
 
Having wrote a book on this subject there are a few things to do to protect your assets. Frist, if you have decided you want to purchase this aircraft now you have to decide what you should put in the contract for the purchase. Any contract to purchase and aircraft should have a pre-purchase agreement included.

Second, you will have to decide what should be included in the pre-purchase inspection. I would highly recommend as part of the pre-purchase you include a few different type of inspections such as a complete record check 1) complete record inspection that will include a full AD search to show how each AD was complied with. 2) Required inspections such as transponders, annual, 100-hour, ELT, and etc. The record inspection will give you a good idea of how the aircraft was maintained.

Second, I would recommend you list what type of maintenance items you want a mechanic to look at and give their opinion such as 1) compression test, 2) cylinder soap test, 3) corrosion inspections especially per the Piper The Supplemental Inspection Documents or SID’s have been released for the 200 and 100 Series piston engine aircraft and the 1996 and on Single Engine Piston Aircraft. All SID’s Inspections are now incorporated into the affected Maintenance Manuals via revision with the exception of the early 120, 140, 170 and 195 models which have been released as stand-alone inspections. Answers to some frequently asked questions are presented here.

Keep in mind any maintenance a A&P does on the aircraft such as a compression test results should be recorded in the proper aircraft maintenance records. Items they find that are unairworthy should be provided in writing in a letter per the pre-purchase agreement.

With list of discrepancies in hand you can now negotiate with the owner a price you are willing to pay. What I would recommend you do is negotiate a price to have the discrepancies taken care of at your home base. This may require a Special Flight Permit from the FAA to relocate the aircraft.

Just my opinion, I would not purchase an aircraft with a fresh annual inspection it is like buying a house with fresh paint hiding what may be under it. This is why it is better to purchase and aircraft that needs some attention negotiate the price down, relocate it and have it repaired at your home base by people you know and trust.

Bottom line is DO NOT purchase any aircraft without a contract or pre-purchase inspection.
 
Or you can skip all the precautions and buy 'AS-IS' and pay a lowball price that gives you room to fix everything later.

Probably not having current engine and airframe logbooks presents the biggest challenge.
 
We have a purchase agreement and pre-buy for sure so not worried about that aspect. In this particular plane all log books are there so not an issue.
 
Stache, good post, but I'm wondering about this metaphor:

Just my opinion, I would not purchase an aircraft with a fresh annual inspection it is like buying a house with fresh paint hiding what may be under it.
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If it was just an inspection, you can choose to ignore it, right? And do your prebuy inspection no differently than if the annual were 12 mos old or even older. You can't do that with fresh paint.
 
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netsurfr said:
Do the sellers typically fix that before the buyer completes the transaction OR does the seller simply adjust the price down for the agreed upon cost to repair and seller takes plane and has it done back home?
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Both are possible and both are common. It's purely a matter for negotiation between buyer and seller, and usually agreed (preferably in writing as part of a sales contract) before the pre-buy is conducted.

If the seller should fix it because coming up with an accurate estimate BEFORE actually doing the work is difficult to estimate (e.g. rehoning cylinder but then shop determines valves need work too), then would the buyer get to decide what shop does the repair or would the seller's A&P be acceptable?
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Again, matters for negotiation before the inspection occurs.
 
netsurfr said:
Yes I understand but I guess what I'm asking is Would allowing the seller to fix the problem w/ his A&P be a bad idea if we can't agree on an estimate that we'd deduct from the selling price due to unknowns?
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Yes, I think that is a bad idea, since the seller's mechanic let the plane go without discovering/fixing the problem in the first place. You would want someone not in the seller's employ to be the one responsible for seeing the problem is properly fixed.
 
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