Pre-Mishap? Skywest files for Part 135

It never really went away… just for the 121 stuff. I have a neighbor that’s a captain on the embraer 145. No ATP. Not required for the job.

There is so much more about safety of flight than how many hours the FO has logged.

There is not enough information available to pass judgment on the latest plan by skyweezy.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
It never really went away… just for the 121 stuff. I have a neighbor that’s a captain on the embraer 145. No ATP. Not required for the job.

There is so much more about safety of flight than how many hours the FO has logged.

There is not enough information available to pass judgment on the latest plan by skyweezy.
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How is your neighbor a captain on an embraer 135 without an ATP?

I’m captain of a jet too, and I’m required to have an ATP.
 
MauleSkinner said:
He didn’t say he was captain on a 135 jet.
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I fat fingered it and meant to type embraer 145. Still, I find it difficult to believe someone would be insured without an ATP even pt 91.
 
I don’t believe anything on Twitter and apparently neither does Musk:cool:

Cheers​
 
DavidWhite said:
How is your neighbor a captain on an embraer 135 without an ATP?

I’m captain of a jet too, and I’m required to have an ATP.
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Part 125
Not a requirement to have the atp. The company won’t pay for the stupid atp class that was created after the buffalo NY crash. He does a PC every six months just no ATP.
if we are honest it’s hard to say the FAA is anything other than f’d up.
 
A question that came to mind for the folks that support the 1,500 hour rule and keeping lower time pilots away from regional airlines because of pay.

Is it better the 500 hour commercial rate pilot work for peanuts flying banners, skydivers, or flight instructing to get their 1,500 hours. Or spend that time learning useful skills in the right seat of a RJ for what is probably still better pay than flying banners, skydivers, and flight instructing? Either way the sub 1,500 hour commercial pilot is going to be working for free.
 
midwestpa24 said:
A question that came to mind for the folks that support the 1,500 hour rule and keeping lower time pilots away from regional airlines because of pay.

Is it better the 500 hour commercial rate pilot work for peanuts flying banners, skydivers, or flight instructing to get their 1,500 hours. Or spend that time learning useful skills in the right seat of a RJ for what is probably still better pay than flying banners, skydivers, and flight instructing? Either way the sub 1,500 hour commercial pilot is going to be working for free.
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I think they should have to fly freight or up in Alaska until they have 1500 hours, so they actually learn how to fly. Most companies in Alaska will pick you up @ 500 hours, some like Ace and Ryan @ 250. You’ll learn more in a year flying at Ace than you’d get in 20 at a regional.

Nothing like dog **** approaches to “minimums” in a 40 knot crosswind at night to turn someone into a real pilot.
 
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Tarheelpilot said:
There is so much more about safety of flight than how many hours the FO has logged.
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I agree 100%. Unfortunately too many of those things are left to chance in a pilot who starts flying the line with very low hours. If the airline has a plan to develop the pilot, great. I don’t see anything here, and in the case of the other airline thread a while back, they were trying to convince the FAA that they could provide training and experience equivalent to what military pilots get, only in less time.
Tarheelpilot said:
…the stupid atp class that was created after the buffalo NY crash.
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The class may be stupid, but the intent is to give pilots training in some of those areas where they may not get the kind of training that we see to get as part of our right seat experience, and relates to TASKS I.C through I.G in the ACS. What do you see in those tasks that an ATP shouldn’t know, especially if he’s flying jets?
 
MauleSkinner said:
I agree 100%. Unfortunately too many of those things are left to chance in a pilot who starts flying the line with very low hours. If the airline has a plan to develop the pilot, great. I don’t see anything here, and in the case of the other airline thread a while back, they were trying to convince the FAA that they could provide training and experience equivalent to what military pilots get, only in less time.

The class may be stupid, but the intent is to give pilots training in some of those areas where they may not get the kind of training that we see to get as part of our right seat experience, and relates to TASKS I.C through I.G in the ACS. What do you see in those tasks that an ATP shouldn’t know, especially if he’s flying jets?
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The class is dumb. You can’t pass an atp written, oral or type rating oral/practical without that knowledge. The dingle berry's that crashed in NY would have passed those classes and learned nothing. It’s a waste of time. There were and are still lots of problems but that class does nothing to help.

besides that I don’t care what the intent was when the congress critters made the law. I’m only concerned with results. The result is that it’s redundant and a waste of time and money
 
Tarheelpilot said:
The class is dumb. You can’t pass an atp written, oral or type rating oral/practical without that knowledge. The dingle berry's that crashed in NY would have passed those classes and learned nothing. It’s a waste of time. There were and are still lots of problems but that class does nothing to help.
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Agreed…but the fact of the matter is there’s a need for pilots to learn that stuff. The airlines don’t have a way to ensure it happens, so the FAA and congress have to deal with it, and the only way they have available is by stupid mandates. So the root cause for a stupid course is still stupid pilots and operators.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
The class is dumb. You can’t pass an atp written, oral or type rating oral/practical without that knowledge. The dingle berry's that crashed in NY would have passed those classes and learned nothing. It’s a waste of time. There were and are still lots of problems but that class does nothing to help.

besides that I don’t care what the intent was when the congress critters made the law. I’m only concerned with results. The result is that it’s redundant and a waste of time and money
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Correlation/causation and all that but you can’t say that aviation in the US isn’t as safe as it has ever been. There have been two passenger fatalities on 121 aircraft since the Colgan rule, one was a freak accident where the lady got sucked out of a window and the other was a freak accident where a big chunk of prop came through the fuselage after a runway overrun.

Did the rule change make things safer? Maybe, maybe not but the same argument can’t be made for lowering the requirements. It may not make it more dangerous, but it certainly won’t make it more safe.
 
The CTP class was a waste of time. It was literally a week of retired airline dudes swapping war stories. Didn’t learn a thing and just used my week in Dallas to study Sheppard air for the written.
 
DavidWhite said:
Correlation/causation and all that but you can’t say that aviation in the US isn’t as safe as it has ever been. There have been two passenger fatalities on 121 aircraft since the Colgan rule, one was a freak accident where the lady got sucked out of a window and the other was a freak accident where a big chunk of prop came through the fuselage after a runway overrun.

Did the rule change make things safer? Maybe, maybe not but the same argument can’t be made for lowering the requirements again. Dropping experience requirements 100% leads to a decrease in safety.
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I don’t agree. Safety can be affected by experience but it’s not required to be safe.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I don’t agree. Safety can be affected by experience but it’s not required to be safe.
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So you don’t agree that since the rule change we have entered the safest period for passenger airline travel in history?
 
DavidWhite said:
So you don’t agree that since the rule change we have entered the safest period for passenger airline travel in history?
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I don’t agree the rule had anything to do with the lack of crashes. I have worked in a part 121 training program after the rule was implemented. Along with that I have had access to the FOQA program database.
I also have peers at other airlines and have heard some of their close calls.

What we have been for the last twelve years is lucky.
 
jordane93 said:
The CTP class was a waste of time. It was literally a week of retired airline dudes swapping war stories. Didn’t learn a thing and just used my week in Dallas to study Sheppard air for the written.
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That just means the CTP class was poorly designed and/or executed. The content is important, but has little to do with the written.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I don’t agree the rule had anything to do with the lack of crashes. I have worked in a part 121 training program after the rule was implemented. Along with that I have had access to the FOQA program database.
I also have peers at other airlines and have heard some of their close calls.

What we have been for the last twelve years is lucky.
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Fair enough. I also think the CTP is a joke FWIW, but lowering the barrier of entry to “good” flying jobs is just going to make things worse for the industry as a whole either way.
 
If we really value safety then all of the regionals would merge into the legacy carriers. Every airline pilot candidate would be hired directly into a true major airline flying it’s own ticked passengers. No more fee for departure BS. That would have been a meaningful way for congress to make it safer.

You haven’t seen dumb stuff happen until you see a 1500 hour cfi get upgraded to captain after only flying 1000 hours of 121 and then they get paired up with another brand new 1500 cfi. That right there is special sauce.
 
MauleSkinner said:
That just means the CTP class was poorly designed and/or executed. The content is important, but has little to do with the written.
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Seems like the entirety of the CTP program is. I haven’t heard of 1 pilot go through the course and say they’ve learned something valuable. In the sims all we did was barrel rolls and see who could fly under the Golden Gate Bridge the closest. The instructor did show us a V1 cut though so I guess that is somewhat useful
 
jordane93 said:
Seems like the entirety of the CTP program is. I haven’t heard of 1 pilot go through the course and say they’ve learned something valuable. In the sims all we did was barrel rolls and see who could fly under the Golden Gate Bridge the closest. The instructor did show us a V1 cut though so I guess that is somewhat useful
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I have heard pilots say they learned something useful.

if “all you did” even included barrel rolls and flying under bridges, the training program should be closely evaluated if not revoked.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I have heard pilots say they learned something useful.

if “all you did” even included barrel rolls and flying under bridges, the training program should be closely evaluated if not revoked.
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That’s kind of my point. Something needs to change
 
Tarheelpilot said:
You haven’t seen dumb stuff happen until you see a 1500 hour cfi get upgraded to captain after only flying 1000 hours of 121 and then they get paired up with another brand new 1500 cfi. That right there is special sauce.
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and skywest is making it so now those CFIs only need ATP mins to be a captain.

That makes things better how?
 
DavidWhite said:
Fair enough. I also think the CTP is a joke FWIW, but lowering the barrier of entry to “good” flying jobs is just going to make things worse for the industry as a whole either way.
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I’ll be honest. I don’t care if they hire zero time pilots and train them into the seat. The problem I see is a lack of experienced pilots at the entry level jobs to mentor the new guys.

I don’t care if a new jet pilot has 500 hours or 1500 hours. Most likely none of the time is relevant to flying jets. What’s more important is what’s sitting in the seat to their left. Currently the captains at entry level jobs are leaving faster than they can be replaced.

If sky west is filling the left seat with sixty five year old retired pilots then they are doing the industry a favor by hiring 300 hour wonders to sit right seat. Those pilots will get over 1000 hours of line experience in a jet under the mentorship of a very high time retired airline pilot before they can get a job at an airline. That’s way better than farking off in the training area teaching someone how to fly a Cessna 172.

That’s why I said we don’t know enough to have an opinion on the skywest plan. It could be an awesome way to bring up experienced guys or a disaster.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
It’s already that way everywhere besides the airlines. Skywest isn’t changing anything.
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At most 135s, insurance dictates the minimums and not the legal minimum requirements. At my company to fly a light jet it’s 3000TT and 1000TPIC or 1000 time in type.

Skywest most likely will get lower insurance requirements because of their background as a 121 airline.

Even the open pilot clause on the PC12 I fly pt91 is 2500 TT and 100 in type.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I’ll be honest. I don’t care if they hire zero time pilots and train them into the seat. The problem I see is a lack of experienced pilots at the entry level jobs to mentor the new guys.

I don’t care if a new jet pilot has 500 hours or 1500 hours. Most likely none of the time is relevant to flying jets. What’s more important is what’s sitting in the seat to their left. Currently the captains at entry level jobs are leaving faster than they can be replaced.

If sky west is filling the left seat with sixty five year old retired pilots then they are doing the industry a favor by hiring 300 hour wonders to sit right seat. Those pilots will get over 1000 hours of line experience in a jet under the mentorship of a very high time retired airline pilot before they can get a job at an airline. That’s way better than farking off in the training area teaching someone how to fly a Cessna 172.

That’s why I said we don’t know enough to have an opinion on the skywest plan. It could be an awesome way to bring up experienced guys or a disaster.
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The only caveat I would add is that the high time retired airline pilot needs to be willing and able to mentor.
 
midwestpa24 said:
A question that came to mind for the folks that support the 1,500 hour rule and keeping lower time pilots away from regional airlines because of pay.
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It's not a 1,500 hour rule, it's an ATP rule.

You need 750, 1,000, 1,250, or 1,500 total time to get an ATP/rATP but the additional (above CPL) total time requirement isn't the factor. There are many other experience and training requirements that make an ATP/rATP holder a better, more experienced pilot.

The general public would be shocked if they really understood the experience level and comfort level of a new part 121 F/O at his first airline job. There is a significant difference in a pilot's knowledge, experience, and ability at ATP minimums as compared to the same pilot at CPL minimums.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Can you think of a reason other than eliminating the need for ATP SICs to convert from 121 to 135 on the same routes?
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I'm not going to worry about this stuff until the captain starts passing out those 5-page intro flight logbooks signed by him as dual instruction.
 
jordane93 said:
That’s kind of my point. Something needs to change
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And my point is that it’s only the pilots and operators who can make that happen. But the pilots get through it and let it be the next guy’s problem, and the operators see the box checked, so they don’t care.

this is exactly how the government decided regulations and laws were needed.
 
DavidWhite said:
At most 135s, insurance dictates the minimums and not the legal minimum requirements. At my company to fly a light jet it’s 3000TT and 1000TPIC or 1000 time in type.

Skywest most likely will get lower insurance requirements because of their background as a 121 airline.

Even the open pilot clause on the PC12 I fly pt91 is 2500 TT and 100 in type.
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That does vary a lot. One of the more interesting places I worked was big enough to be self insured. That had some interesting consequences.
 
MauleSkinner said:
And my point is that it’s only the pilots and operators who can make that happen. But the pilots get through it and let it be the next guy’s problem, and the operators see the box checked, so they don’t care.

this is exactly how the government decided regulations and laws were needed.
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What would you do if you went to the CTP course and experienced what @jordane93 shared?
 
Tarheelpilot said:
What would you do if you went to the CTP course and experienced what @jordane93 shared?
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I’d complain to the CTP course provider, and if I got no satisfaction there, start uphill.

of course, if my employer was the provider, I’d have to decide whether I really wanted that job.
 
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