Pre-buy Question

netsurfr

netsurfr

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Aug 30, 2014
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311
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Wisconsin
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Jose
My plane is listed for sale and there's a buyer in NY who is interested in it but they would like to do the pre-buy in their field in NY (I"m in Wisconsin). They said they would be willing to pay to have plane flown to NY and back if things don't work out. There would be a contract with this spelled out but guess I'm looking for feedback as to this idea of having the plane flown to buyers field for a pre-buy? I am concerned about not being able to be there to monitor things... Any thoughts/advice?
 
Wait. The buyer wants to take possession of your asset without compensating for that asset? That’s a big old nope from me.

What’s the worst case scenario here? Your airplane at their field with their mechanic and suddenly there’s a major discrepancy reported. Now the buyer has leverage.

Buyer and/or his mechanic can come to me.
 
How do you feel about the buyer and the deal overall? If they're being reasonable it might be fine. If they're not, I wouldn't do it.

How about limiting the prebuy to one full day in length so you could fly it out then fly it home without losing more than a days time?
 
The voices in my head say be careful. One scenario has the A&P doing the prebuy finding something that grounds the airplane. You not only have a 'leverage' situation, it's a hostage situation.
 
So the guy is willing to pay for a round trip and pay his mechanic for a days work. Why can't they make the round trip to your place?
 
Uh, no way. I wouldn't do it. They can bring their choice of mechanic to your place.
Don't open this:

Can of worms.jpeg
 
luvflyin said:
The voices in my head say be careful. One scenario has the A&P doing the prebuy finding something that grounds the airplane. You not only have a 'leverage' situation, it's a hostage situation.
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If they find something that grounds the airplane it shouldn't have been flown to NY in the first place, or it happened enroute.
 
I'd be perfectly willing to move my airplane to another local field for a pre-buy (or even say 50-100 miles away), but no way am I letting it go from WI to NY just for a pre-buy (unless you've got some super unique model and the only qualified mechanic, or "THE" guy is in NY, then maybe). If he wants his mechanic to do the pre-buy, he can bring his mechanic to the plane. Way too many things to go wrong taking it that far from home for what can be a bit of an invasive inspection.
 
Personally, I'd want to be there for the pre-buy as well. Maybe not hover or be right in the guys face, but in the past when I've sold planes, I'm always "around"...popping in and out, answering questions, etc.
During the prebuy, it is STILL YOUR PLANE!
 
Where they find something is irrelevant, you'll still have to get it fixed.

If they don't buy, they will still have to pay for the return trip.

So the risk to you is the cost differential of your shop in WI vs "some shop" in NY. You should not have to use their A&P for the repairs.

I'd consider it if the money looks right and they allow me to have a neutral A&P monitor the pre-buy at my expense.
 
I suggest you both agree on an independent shop in/near Wisconsin.
 
When I bought my plane I found a an A&P and shop with no knowledge of the plane near the owner. The owner flew the plan to the shop and the inspection was done. However, that was 55 miles. I think Wi to NY is a bit much. Just my $0.02 worth.
 
I wouldn't have a issue with someone paying for me to fly a fun cross country in my plane, I also think this makes the buyer have some real skin in the game and is more likely to purchase your plane.

That said, if you can't be there for it, I wouldn't do it.

Also if this is just a prebuy and not a annual or 100hr inspection I would scan all the logs and paperwork and only give access to those copies, I wouldn't allow his AP to so much as touch the actual logs, let alone write in them, write up that contract that you affirm that the copies are full and accurate, and if the sale goes through you will provide the actual logs (bring them with you but leave them in the hotel), also write up that at the end of the prebuy the plane is to be in the same condition as when it entered the prebuy (i.e. not disassembled if the mechanics feels he found something).

It amazes me how many people buy and sell planes without being physically there, must have a lot more money and faith than I do, also I wonder how these people even find time to fly their own planes of they are that busy.
 
Ravioli said:
Where they find something is irrelevant, you'll still have to get it fixed.

If they don't buy, they will still have to pay for the return trip.

So the risk to you is the cost differential of your shop in WI vs "some shop" in NY. You should not have to use their A&P for the repairs.

I'd consider it if the money looks right and they allow me to have a neutral A&P monitor the pre-buy at my expense.
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Getting it fixed 1000 miles from home, where you don't know the shops and can't really monitor the work, is a MUCH bigger pain in the ass than having it 50-100 miles from home. My airplane is currently AOG 800 miles from home, and it's costing a fortune to get it repaired (plus the time and cost to go rescue it). I wouldn't voluntarily open myself up to that.
 
James331 said:
I wouldn't have a issue with someone paying for me to fly a fun cross country in my plane, I also think this makes the buyer have some real skin in the game and is more likely to purchase your plane.

That said, if you can't be there for it, I wouldn't do it.

Also if this is just a prebuy and not a annual or 100hr inspection I would scan all the logs and paperwork and only give access to those copies, I wouldn't allow his AP to so much as touch the actual logs, let alone write in them, write up that contract that you affirm that the copies are full and accurate, and if the sale goes through you will provide the actual logs (bring them with you but leave them in the hotel), also write up that at the end of the prebuy the plane is to be in the same condition as when it entered the prebuy (i.e. not disassembled if the mechanics feels he found something).

It amazes me how many people buy and sell planes without being physically there, must have a lot more money and faith than I do, also I wonder how these people even find time to fly their own planes of they are that busy.
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:yeahthat:

1) I am always there during a pre-purchase inspection. Whether I am buying or selling.
2) Sending the plane to a shop off its home field isn't unusual, but I would have a conditional sale in place first, subject to price adjustments up to an agreed maximum for anything that comes up in the pre-purchase. That's what I have done, both as buyer and as seller, in the past.
 
what a bizarre cottage industry this cockeyed A/P business is, where we lend credence to the idea a tire kicker's mechanic can legally impound your property. Talk about a moral hazard. Heall to the naw. I'd sooner salvage value the airplane once the engine runs out, than have some yahoo try and tell me my property is now his because he looked in it.

We do things a bit different in Tejas....
upload_2018-1-24_10-14-31.png
:D:D
 
I've purchased and sold two airplanes. As a buyer I pick the mechanic and the field and I pay travel there and back (in the event of a deal-breaker). When I sold 2 airplanes they buyers both had the same conditions. If anyone told me I could not have the airplane looked at by my mechanic is a big red flag - at least it is to me. Case in point - I was going to buy a 04 SR22 they kept advertising "fresh annual ready to fly"..... . Told the guy I wanted a pre-buy and the broker was like "not necessary it literally just had a sign off". ME "Uhh, no. It's gonna have to have a pre-buy at the mechanic of my choice". They said no. I walked. 30 - 40 days later the broker called back and said they'd let me use my own mechanic. I paid a CSIP to fly it to the shop. It had engine issues. The seller wasn't budging. We flew the plane back and wished him all the best. Yeah I lost 4 grand or so in all that but I saved a ton of money in the long run.
 
Another quick story. There is a Cirrus Shop in Florida (not saying names) that is WELL known for finding bad jugs and other issues to pocket cash. My first sale the guy picked that shop. I called him and told him that I am happy to take it here but this guy has a bad rap and if he comes back with silly sh*t I won't be paying. Sure enough it went there and sure enough the shop said I had 2 bad jugs and a top overhaul would be a great solution. The buyer wanted me to pay for a top. NOPE. Pay for 2 cylinders? - asked for the borescope pictures - we sent them to Continental and Cirrus - both Cirrus and Continental (as well as Savvy) said the jugs were all fine. We settled on a 1000 dollar credit just to get rid of the plane.
 
Just another "hell no" voice. Another shop at a local field within ~30 miles, ok. Across a third of the country, big nope, unless you're selling something unique of high value (like > $250K, where buyers may be few and far between).
 
hindsight2020 said:
what a bizarre cottage industry this cockeyed A/P business is, where we lend credence to the idea a tire kicker's mechanic can legally impound your property. Talk about a moral hazard. Heall to the naw. I'd sooner salvage value the airplane once the engine runs out, than have some yahoo try and tell me my property is now his because he looked in it.

We do things a bit different in Tejas....
View attachment 59575
:D:D
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More or less

Hence not giving up the logs for him to ink
 
It's a beautiful (and expensive) Dakota, but it's still a PA28 that just about any decent A&P ought to be able to do a good pre-buy on. I get the buyer wanting "his" mechanic to look at it, but that doesn't mean the airplane needs to be moved halfway across the country for it.
 
netsurfr said:
My plane is listed for sale and there's a buyer in NY who is interested in it but they would like to do the pre-buy in their field in NY (I"m in Wisconsin). They said they would be willing to pay to have plane flown to NY and back if things don't work out. There would be a contract with this spelled out but guess I'm looking for feedback as to this idea of having the plane flown to buyers field for a pre-buy? I am concerned about not being able to be there to monitor things... Any thoughts/advice?
Click to expand...
I've set up a couple pre-buys now (I'm the purchaser). My mechanic does a bit of work and gets a free vacation and flight time home (and compensation for his work) and we go out to all of the planes I'm looking at.
 
Netsurfr, are you getting out of ownership all together? Did it just end up where you weren’t flying a whole lot?

Just asking, if I wasn’t tangled up in my own project, I may be interested.
 
Nah, airplane isn't going to someone else until its sold. Plenty of A&Ps in Wisconsin, the buyer should be able to find someone to look over his intended.
 
Oh no flying plenty but as much as I love this Dakota I'm moving into an SR22...

sourdough44 said:
Netsurfr, are you getting out of ownership all together? Did it just end up where you weren’t flying a whole lot?

Just asking, if I wasn’t tangled up in my own project, I may be interested.
Click to expand...
 
That is great. I was on that Beaver Island Trip a few years ago, based at BUU.
 
I bought a Commander 112. It’s currently in the process of an IO-390 with an MT prop. Near the tail end now, longer than expected, but plan to see it thru.
 
I'd make them come to WI. You want to minimize your risk. If he is serious about the plane, he will either find a mechanic there or bring one with him.
 
I usually find a neutral shop,in the area,and have my mechanic ,talk with the mechanic ,doing the inspection.if that’s not agreeable,have him bring his mechanic to your location. Even if your aircraft seems to be perfect,your taking a chance going to his mechanic.
 
I sold my trusty Warrior to a guy from WV. We met in Indiana for a casual prebuy. There were no surprises. I wouldn’t fly to NY either.
 
I think it is just easier/better for the buyer to come to you. Agreements aside, unless all the money is in your hands or in escrow, you could be in a tough position 1000 miles from home trying to enforce what was promised. I recently sold an airplane. The buyer agreed to a price (barring any big discrepancies) gave me a 3k deposit and planned to come to my field(500 miles from his) for a prebuy and the purchase. Long story short, he was a low time pilot and the winter weather wasn't great, he kept putting off the trip, 60 days. Finally I offered to go to him if it was really needed, for expenses. He jumped on this offer. I found myself 500 miles from home "negotiating" some BS glitches his a&p supposedly found (...5k worth). I finally just told them to decide if they wanted to do the deal it had to happen NOW or I was gone. We did the deal. I'm not doing that again.
 
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