Pre buy DURING an annual

JSTootell

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JSTootell
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New PPL and first time shopper.

I contacted a seller who says he just flew the plane to another airport to do an annual. This plane is on my short list of interested planes. Seeing that the plane is with a mechanic other than at the home airport, would it be reasonable to believe that this would be an impartial mechanic? Would it be reasonable to ask that mechanic to dig a little deeper during the annual for me?
 
Seeing that the plane is with a mechanic other than at the home airport, would it be reasonable to believe that this would be an impartial mechanic?

Aircraft move all over the place for maintenance. Just because this particular aircraft is not being inspected/serviced at its home airport doesn't mean that the mechanic performing the work isn't the regular service provider. As mentioned, the only opinion on an aircraft's condition that matters is yours and the mechanic you are paying to maintain it.

Would it be reasonable to ask that mechanic to dig a little deeper during the annual for me?

Are you paying for the annual or work you're requesting? If not, then it may be unreasonable. Get your preferred mechanic and send them to look at the aircraft while it is open for the inspection, if the owner and his mechanic are receptive.
 
Searched and didn't come up with an answer.

New PPL and first time shopper.

I contacted a seller who says he just flew the plane to another airport to do an annual. This plane is on my short list of interested planes. Seeing that the plane is with a mechanic other than at the home airport, would it be reasonable to believe that this would be an impartial mechanic? Would it be reasonable to ask that mechanic to dig a little deeper during the annual for me?
Maybe. It could also be the IA the owner picked to pencil whip the annual for a quick sale.
 
Are you paying for the annual or work you're requesting? If not, then it may be unreasonable. Get your preferred mechanic and send them to look at the aircraft while it is open for the inspection, if the owner and his mechanic are receptive.
I would pay for the additional work.

As of right now I don't have a preferred mechanic. I know a few, I think, the local airport has a small community and I'm on good terms with them, though I'm a big introvert so that doesn't mean much.

But as a professional (non aviation) mechanic myself, I can NEVER trust any mechanic. So I will have a "preferred mechanic", just one I settle with until I get some training and start doing my own work.

I'd skip a pre buy if I had an inkling of what I was doing.
 
Searched and didn't come up with an answer.

New PPL and first time shopper.

I contacted a seller who says he just flew the plane to another airport to do an annual. This plane is on my short list of interested planes. Seeing that the plane is with a mechanic other than at the home airport, would it be reasonable to believe that this would be an impartial mechanic? Would it be reasonable to ask that mechanic to dig a little deeper during the annual for me?
No it's not reasonable to think that mechanic is impartial even though he is located at another airport. He was hired by the owner to perform an annual inspection, not communicate with you and have you ask him to "dig a little deeper". That maybe an insult to him. He may know that plane real well and doesn't need to dig deeper.
You could hire him to do a pre buy inspection maybe, but he sure wouldn't be impartial.

Weird that the owner advertised the plane and then sent it out for a inspection.

Good luck with it.
 
No it's not reasonable to think that mechanic is impartial even though he is located at another airport. He was hired by the owner to perform an annual inspection, not communicate with you and have you ask him to "dig a little deeper". That maybe an insult to him. He may know that plane real well and doesn't need to dig deeper.
You could hire him to do a pre buy inspection maybe, but he sure wouldn't be impartial.

Weird that the owner advertised the plane and then sent it out for a inspection.

Good luck with it.
In the sellers defense, he did advertise that it was scheduled for an annual in the ad itself.

Beats out the other guy I contacted who had no information and no pictures on another that is local to me, who seems upset that people lose interest after he tells them it has been out of annual for years. He's angry that he has to pay for an annual to sell it now. Though technically I'm still interested, I just need a mechanic to come with me to check it out first before I make an offer.

Being ignorant on such things sucks.
 
If you haven’t read it in the other threads, please read all the advice for first time buyers. Plane ownership is like car ownership in that the principles apply (insurance, fuel, maintenance) but the methods are all different and are stuck somewhere pre-internet. Scheduling an appointment? Call. And call. Call around. Found an insurance broker you liked? That’s your broker - no shopping around until you fire them. How much will it cost? No one knows as no two planes built in the 60s are the same. When will it be done? :rofl:
 
If you haven’t read it in the other threads, please read all the advice for first time buyers. Plane ownership is like car ownership in that the principles apply (insurance, fuel, maintenance) but the methods are all different and are stuck somewhere pre-internet. Scheduling an appointment? Call. And call. Call around. Found an insurance broker you liked? That’s your broker - no shopping around until you fire them. How much will it cost? No one knows as no two planes built in the 60s are the same. When will it be done? :rofl:
Time in type is a huge factor in insurance costs. Most will stipulate X hours dual in type if its not something you already have time in.

ALWAYS shop around. Brokers work off commission, so keep them working for it.
 
As of right now I don't have a preferred mechanic.
The best advice I can give is select your mechanic first and have him involved with your aircraft purchase, especially your 1st one.
just one I settle with until I get some training and start doing my own work.
Being ignorant on such things sucks.
What type of aircraft are you looking at?
If by your use of "annual" this is a type certified aircraft unless you obtain your A&P you'll be limited what you can do as only a private pilot.
And if you are intent on working on your aircraft perhaps select a mechanic who allows owner-assisted maintenance and then you can perform whatever maintenance your mechanic will allow.
 
Anytime you are buying an airplane, read through all the logbooks, every page, YOURSELF.
Even really good prebuys can easily miss items in the logs.
Especially if there are decades of entries to be reviewed.
 
If you are a mechanic, why not go watch the annual, see if you can trust the shop? Why not do your own examination? Have you flown in the plane? Why not get your own guy to go with you while the plane is opened up?

This being on your short list of planes-- does not sound like you are really committed to it yet.
 
the annual isnt being ordered or paid for by you. So you have no rights to its results or ability to dictate what you want done. However, the annual can be 80% of a prebuy - so if you plan on buying it, you can perhaps piggyback some of the other pre-buy things that you want if a hard offer / deposit was in place, and thats the plane you want subject to not finding anything that would be a dealbreaker.

the other option is that you do a prebuy - and if everything comes out ok, and you plan on closing, turn it in to a full annual so you'll have your prebuy and fresh annual. But if it is there already - then this might not be an option.
 
Just to say it again here, figure out who you are going to use for your 1st annual, have them involved in the purchase of your 1st airplane. Best if they can perform and annual inspection and document in the log book they inspected the airplane before or just after you buy the airplane, Then next year when they find all the stuff missed on this year annual you have it legally documented that they had inspected the airplane prior to your purchase.

Brian
 
It doesn’t hurt to ask if you can bring your mechanic out to look while it’s opened up. I would be worried if they said no.

Depending where you are located, you can ask around for mechanic names and see who is available to help.
 
This subject has been a burr under my saddle for a long time! Looking back on my one aircraft purchase a decade ago, I would not combine my next annual with my pre-buy. A pre-buy is not defined anywhere. Make sure your expectations are discussed and will be met up front!

I was expecting 2 things:
1 - an annual because it needed one
2 – what I wanted to see was written list assessing how it looked, what was going to need attention going forward short and long term.

I feel the problem with combining the two is the annual sign off.
Per §43.11 the annual must have one of 2 results:
#1 - if the aircraft is found to be airworthy and approved for return to service, the following or a similarly worded statement—“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with (insert type) inspection and was determined to be in airworthy condition.”
or
#2 - if the aircraft is not approved for return to service because of needed maintenance, noncompliance with applicable specifications, airworthiness directives, or other approved data, the following or a similarly worded statement—“I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with (insert type) inspection and a list of discrepancies and un-airworthy items dated (date) has been provided for the aircraft owner or operator.”

The seller was very afraid his aircraft would be grounded someplace for some reason, it was 30 plus years old. There were undocumented modifications done by people that did not know what they were doing but, you had to look for them. Some were done way back.

I didn’t ensure the FBO & AI knew what I wanted to begin with. I’m not sure the shop could have given me a list of the items that really didn't look so great without grounding the airplane.

If you are buying your first airplane, I recommend you go through CFR Title 14 and at a minimum find all the Part 91 and Part 43 requirements that mentions records.

Also, FAR § 91.419 Transfer of maintenance records specifies what records must be transferred at the time of sale.

I don’t think it’s really a complete list. In addition to those requirements, I think a buyer should also get all records related to the STCs accomplished on the aircraft, along with the instructions for continued airworthiness and any pilot operating supplements and STC permission letters. STC permission leters are mentioned in §91.403, also 49 U.S. Code § 44704.

This is also something I think someone doing a pre-buy should try to identify. I would ask my pre-buy person to go through that airplane and in addition to everything else try to identify every Major Alteration and the paperwork that approved it. That is where did every instrument, control and switch not listed in the POH come from. I would have them identify every accessory or component was wasn't part of the original build and it's approval source. People do things to old airplanes.


FAR 3.5 tells us what “Airworthy” means. To paraphrase, it’s that the plane is in the approved configuration and maintained in a safe condition. In my mind the Type Certificate and Supplements to the Type certificate define the "approved configuration." STCs may alter the aircraft limitations and performance too. How can the new owner keep it airworthy if they don’t have the data on the approved configuration?

A separate inspection for prebuy will have a price. Very likely it will end up giving you bargaining power, if you are a good negotiator. The buyer is trying to determine the value of the aircraft. If it's not in the approved configuration it needs to be and it's the owner/operators job to get it that way.. The annual is maintenance required by regulations to verify it's safe to fly.

No pre-buy or annual is likely to discover everything, especially in an old airplane.
 
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