Practice approach to 'wrong' runway?

CJones

CJones

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Here's a pot-stirrer for Monday afternoon discussion.

You are flying VMC (severe clear) doing practice approaches under the hood with a safety pilot.

Would/do you shoot practice approaches to a runway with wind favoring the opposite runway at an untowered airport? Let's say you want to get an ILS in, but the only ILS approach is a 'downwind' approach - do you shoot the practice ILS 'downwind'? If so, do you do anything differently (higher DH, etc.)

Just curious, and I'm bored of babysitting our skeleton crew at work today...
 
Two questions:

1. What is it about "see and avoid" that you don't understand?

2. Won't at least half of the local traffic be using that runway anyway?:D

CJones said:
Here's a pot-stirrer for Monday afternoon discussion.

You are flying VMC (severe clear) doing practice approaches under the hood with a safety pilot.

Would/do you shoot practice approaches to a runway with wind favoring the opposite runway at an untowered airport? Let's say you want to get an ILS in, but the only ILS approach is a 'downwind' approach - do you shoot the practice ILS 'downwind'? If so, do you do anything differently (higher DH, etc.)

Just curious, and I'm bored of babysitting our skeleton crew at work today...
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I might do it, but I'd make sure the safety pilot paid a great deal of attention to the CTAF and where traffic in the pattern for the wind-favored runway might be, and I'd be ready to break off the approach as needed to cede right of way to an aircraft actually landing.
 
I do it frequently. Just monitor the radio well, announce your intentions clearly, and have the safety pilot really looking for traffic. If you are actually landing, stop your descent at TPA and join the crosswind for the opposite runway. If you are doing a low approach, make that clear on the radio so that traffic knows what to expect (they are usually relieved that the plane they see approaching the "wrong" end of the runway is not going to land), and also make your intended actions upon the "miss" clear--that might have to be modified so as to not impede traffic.

Except at busy burger-run airports on a pretty Saturday, traffic at small airports in my parts is very rarely a problem.

Wells
 
I do it as well - but you have to keep your eyes open and make clear radio calls. I'm also always ready to break off the approach so that someone else can land.
 
Have done frequently, rarely an issue, provided you are clear in your traffic calls, giving position reports that non- IR pilots and students can understand (ie, "Bugtussle traffic, Bonanza niner two Romeo procedure turn inbound Localizer back-course three fife" is not too helpful to so one who has no idea what that means).
 
I'm the guy who is always using the cross wind runway... So I don't have a problem with your plan...
Announce your intentions and position more than once and have the safety pilot keep the eyeballs moving...

Now, as mentioned above - use that uncommon thing, common sense, and avoid busy times, have the strobe going and the LL on. etc.

denny-o
 
Just make sure the other pilots in the area know where you are. Calling out approach waypoints means nothing to a student pilot. "COPAP inbound" is a useless position call.
 
upstateny said:
Just make sure the other pilots in the area know where you are. Calling out approach waypoints means nothing to a student pilot. "COPAP inbound" is a useless position call.
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+1. I normally announce my position relative to the field (distance/direction) and the fix so both VFR and IFR pilots understand my exact location.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
+1. I normally announce my position relative to the field (distance/direction) and the fix so both VFR and IFR pilots understand my exact location.
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I figure IFR pilots didn't excise the VFR portion of their brain when they got their IR, so I don't clobber the freq more than necessary by adding "[fix] on the [approach]" to "five southwest of [airport name], straight in, low approach Runway 4."
 
Ron Levy said:
I figure IFR pilots didn't excise the VFR portion of their brain when they got their IR, so I don't clobber the freq more than necessary by adding "[fix] on the [approach]" to "five southwest of [airport name], straight in, low approach Runway 4."
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Fair enough. Where I train students most pilots in the area know the exact location of the fix in their head so I find it is helpful more often than not. If the frequency is busy, it isn't worth it. But if it's a quiet Tuesday morning then I don't hesitate to add a few syllables.
 
I've heard some aircraft (Cirri) don't do well with downwind landings.
 
I've done it with students many, many times. When Kitsap County (PWT) had an ILS to one end of its single runway and a NDB to the other end, we would shoot the ILS in the face of traffic and break off at circling minimums, keeping our eyes (well, my eyes) open and traffic in the pattern advised as to our intentions. Perfectly safe so long as everyone is on the same page and the eyeballs are active. After all, we could see the whole runway from the outer marker and could see any planes in the runup area, taxiing onto the runway, etc.

Bob Gardner
 
Plenty of times at OLM for practice. And a few times for practice and on the IR checkride at TIW. Somebody keeps their eyes outside watching for traffice and, of course, I'm talking to ATC.
 
Sure..I'd just make sure my safety pilot was actively looking for traffic. Remember, there is no wrong runway at an uncontrolled field, just a "better" one.
 
I have to be honest. I'm surprised that there is so much agreement on doing an approach to the departure end of a runway. I really expected there to be several nay-sayers to this one.

I completely agree about doing them as long as the 'common sense' rules already mentioned are followed.

Could this possibly be the first ever PoA consensus on an 'aviation practice' topic!?
 
I do it frequently at the 4th busiest GA airport (the controllers say it is 4th busiest, but they may be biased). KAPA only has approaches for 35R/L and 28, so if the other runways are active, the you'll be flying approaches against traffic.

KBJC is the same way on account of having enormous mountains just west of the field.

At KGXY during the Saturday morning breakfast rush I have seen VFR traffic using all 4 runways and instrument approaches to 3 of them simultaneously. The CTAF was hopping, but no one bumped into anyone else and that even included some RVs.
 
I'll do it, too, but your safety pilot sure better keep his head on a swivel! I have vivid memories of flying a practice approach into N87 going "against the flow." Shortly before the MAP, I took off my foggles to see an airplane heading right at me, head-on. Holy evasive maneuvers at 500 feet, batman! I was pretty annoyed that the guy in the right seat hadn't seen him. Then again, the guy in the right seat was pretty annoyed at himself for missing it. The other pilot never announced his takeoff on CTAF, either.
 
Announcing is recommended and advisable but not required per FARs at non-towered fields. Some people relish the opportunity to not transmit, because there is no reg that says they 'have to'. It is for this reason, that makes the practice more risky. The pilots that do this should know and understand those risks (and by the comments above, seems they do).
 
It occurs very frequently at our non-towered airport. We have an ILS to RW 17 (only runway is 17-35) , and get a lot of practice approaches. The only mid-air I know about in the area happened when a CAP C-182 was climbing into the sun and climbed into an inbound C-170, and that was west of the airport nowhere near the ILS to RW 17 (or any other approaches for that matter).
 
matthammer said:
We have CTAFs for a reason. Announcing your departure is one of 'em. I don't think this guy was NORDO, either, seeing he was flying an Arrow.
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Anyone who assumes that all airplanes have radio's and all pilots use them is stupid, plain and simple. Is it wise to use the radio, yes. Is it illegal to not use it? No.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Anyone who assumes that all airplanes have radio's and all pilots use them is stupid, plain and simple. Is it wise to use the radio, yes. Is it illegal to not use it? No.
Click to expand...

I haven't seen anyone argue that all aircraft have radios, that all pilots use their radios, or that it's illegal not to make a call on CTAF. In practice, good CTAF announcements are to flying what turn signals are to driving. Only difference is that the latter is legally required...
 
I've done it when the non-towered field is quiet, and insist that my safety pilot do position announcements and call out traffic constantly....we love CRM!

On the weekends at the breakfast-burger joints where every level of pilot capability, and lack of capability is out there..noway.

Towered fields, I do sometimes fly opposite traffic flow (ie, the only ILS is the runway opposite to traffic) and my intentions are always part of the initial approach request to ATC and I would venture into them more often when busy. If on the handoff from ATC, the tower controller breaks me off and vectors me out of the approach, I follow the instruction and the hood goes off, and it's a circle to land with the traffic, or move on to the next practice approach to the runway in use.
 
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