ppl training - plane buying - cost question

Using a good high time CFI will also make a major difference in the amount of wear and tear inflicted on said airframe, both pre and post PPL.
 
James331 said:
Using a good high time CFI will also make a major difference in the amount of wear and tear inflicted on said airframe, both pre and post PPL.
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Yep, lot of truth there. The only plane I would consider buying as a 'trainer' aircraft is a cheap as chips C-150. As long as you get one that doesn't have major corrosion issues, a 150 is about as cheap as it comes to keep flying, is proven as a rugged trainer, and is the easiest plane there is to sell. As long as a 150 flies legally, it's worth $15k. If it no longer legally flies, you can likely still get ~$15k for the parts. A cheap 150 is a low risk way to own a first plane to train in.
 
Lots of 25k aircraft will do everything he wants from it.

Go for it.

After you solo, you can fly as much as you wish and not worry about the renting schedule.

things you must add to your budget, ramp rental space, insurance, and the possibility of major repairs.
 
MotoFlier said:
What you are failing to see is in the world of airplanes your "immense" skills don't mean ****
they could mean life and death, I trust myself
without an A&P certificate. Nobody cares if you know how or not .
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I won't buy a certified plane without 1st lining up a willing A&P. One willing to sign off on my work when done correctly.

Henning said:
This is not totally true. You may certainly perform all of your own repairs under the supervision of an A&P,
:)

The guy signing off your work definitely cares about your skills.
:)

You pull a tool box with well worn Snap On tools and the maintenance manual out of your plane .
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The Snap On box I will be working out of won't fit inside any aircraft I can afford. Nor could it carry the weight.

Dan Thomas said:
Prebuys are far harder than prospective buyers think they are.
I don't know if they are easy or hard, I don't care. I do, however, expect the inspector to do the job I pay for.

And so we get those airplanes in our shop soon after the guy buys it and start finding expensive neglect everywhere. Corrosion. Worn cables. Seized pulleys. Cracks. Old hoses and connections.
My lawyer would have some words for the incompetent inspector.

So much of it is hidden behind headliners and interior panels that are a pain to remove and replace, but unless the mechanic takes those off, some critically worn stuff goes unaddressed until it becomes lethally dangerous or really, really expensive to fix.
Sounds like these types should find another job, one they can do correctly. I do top notch work, if I miss something I make it right. I expect the same from people I hire.
.
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James331 said:
That.

someone who is easily taken for a ride
No, that's not me. I'm the most cynical person you will ever meet.

.
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:)
 
2Airtime2 said:
I won't buy a certified plane without 1st lining up a willing A&P. One willing to sign off on my work when done correctly.


The Snap On box I will be working out of won't fit inside any aircraft I can afford. Nor could it carry the weight.





:)
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You'll need a box for the plane, I use a cheap plastic tote box, a 1/4 drive set, set of long combos, set of short 30°/90° open ends, various pliers including safety wire pliers (and can of wire), a ratcheting flex head screwdriver with long and short shafts and assorted tips, mostly #2 Phillips, a set of micro stubbies that slip through a handle with a dog clutch that works the shaft, a long plastic handle 3/8 drive with a flex head and 7/8" spark plug socket with hex end and various other 3/8 sockets, a compression tester (aircraft differential style, not direct pressure auto type), and a tray of assorted spare hardware and fitting plugs. All in all it's about 40lbs and stows in the back.
 
As someone that is also a student and considering this, here is what I'm finding. Your mileage may vary.

Fixed costs after you buy:
Insurance - you can get a quote on this, but if the plane is fixed gear, it won't be bad. I was quoted 2,500 per year on a Cherokee 6 with only five hours in my logbook.
Hangar or tie down - just check with your local airport. Mine is 144 tie down and 440 hangar per month. This is on the high end nationally, but you can find this price exactly.
Registrations, elt, pitot check, fir cert, etc, I'm figuring $500/year

The above costs are pretty solid and can be looked up for your airport and aircraft before you buy. In my case this is all about $5,500 a year before I fly the plane
The following are more guesstimated.

Annuals can be approximated, especially if you're willing to travel a bit for them. To put a number here for the plane I'm considering, I'll say 3k, but many folks get pa28s and 172s done for around 1,000 with owner assistance

Also, you'll have squawks, I think many of these will be there whether you fly 20 or 200 hours a year. Door latches, lights, knobs, adjust rigging, ad nauseum. You may be able to lower these costs working with the right a&p and assisting them. For me, I'm calling this 3 grand a year on a 45 year old plan with me turning no wrenches.

So for me, I'm estimating 11 k before I fly.

Now let's go fly. Gas on a 172 9gallons an hour times 5 bucks a gallon. Or for the plane I like, 15 gallons at 5

Add in for oil consumption and changes.

You may choose to add sinking fund for engine and prop.



Now compare renting. I'm trading in a 172 that is 140/hr wet. The planes are booked out months in advance, so I'm working on steep turns in twilight at 5 pm because that's the only time I can get a plane.

I really want a plane post short cc, but have other family priorities that will delay it.

Best is probably a 2-3 way partnership, so the 11k plus the squawks are split in 3 (14k / 3 is 4,600)

If I partner, I can fly 40!hours for 4600 plus 3000 for gas so 190/hr.

If I owned it myself, it's 425/hr.

All of these will vary, and so much depends on your area of the country and the plane.

If your tie down is 50' insurance is 1000 per year and annuals are 1,000, then you can be a solo owner, but around Seattle, it seems really expensive


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
What are you looking at? Your numbers seem way high for operating. And they insurance quote is high. Shop around. I had gotten similar as a 0 hour pilot for a 172 but wound up finding better coverage for 900. There's just no way a decent 6 will cost you 400/hr if you fly any real amount in a year.
 
$400 is WAY high, not sure about a Cherokee 6, I'd imaging you're similar to my 185, 300HP, retract, "6 seater".

Pitot static, xpdr and whatnot are a 2 year 300buck deal.

Annuals are under 1k with no snags, owner assist of course. I also change my own oil, plugs, etc.

Heated hangar is a little over 300mo and I also store other stuff in there, so figure like 150 for the airplanes space (if that makes sense).

Insurance is about 3k a year with my ATP, but very little amphibian time. Now days I'm only insuring for 6months a year and not carrying insurance for the winter due to it not being a FIKI and not something I want to fly in sub zero weather. With my amphib time and time in type that's going down, plus only paying for half a year now.

I don't play the engine reserve game, I've seen engines need a overhaul well under TBO, I've seen them need a overhaul at nearly double TBO, it's a crap shoot, just invest in oil changes and a analyzer.


Mx wise, I change the oil, add gas and fly, anything that comes up I address promptly, be it airworthy stuff or a scratched interior fiberglass panel.

Biggest expense really is just the 15GPH fuel burn at $4.95 per gal.
 
I've looked locally at a private 2500' / 40' paved strip (no gas) and a 5500' county airport (pretty much full service). Both have hangers but none available. The private strip is $100 per mo. hanger and $25 per mo. tiedown. The county airport (only 20 minutes from my house) is $35 per mo. tiedown and $290 per month hanger. I would likely just get on the hanger list. The have av.gas for $5 per gallon. At least 1/2 the planes (older, lower cost) that I have seen ads for are already mogas approved. I have learned some people think there's a big difference in gas and will only use aviation. So far, going by the research I've done, I will be saving $2 per gallon on gas. I have a station 2 miles from my house that sells 93 octane non-ethanol for under $3 per gallon right now. I've got no problem buying a 50 gallon tank and pump for the back of my p/u truck.

I would check with the airport to make sure it's ok to fuel my own plane while tied. I hope off hrs fueling doesn't become necessary. :wink2:

The county airport also has several aircraft maintenance facilities on site. I talked to two A&P's at one of them and they were both very helpful with general info about old Piper's and Cessna's. We didn't talk about signing off on owner repairs but fixed gear annuals are $750 per yr with includes oil change. Repairs are extra.

I will definitely get a minimum of 10's of hours flight time and time with a low wing (Piper type) before making any purchase decisions.

I'm still in the research phase of all this.
 
Smaller and more narrow runways the better, keeps the riff raff out.
 
yes, my costs were for a large municipal airport that is also the closest to our home. their are private fields where I could shrink the hangar/tie down cost (Fall city is only about 10 minutes further) and is likely a little less expensive.

current owners I know say they spend 7k a year on annual+squawks, but I suspect that you could shrink that.

the 6 is a fixed gear, but is HP, CS prop and has 7 seats, so that impacts insurance.

Yeah, if you spend 1,000/yr on annual plus squawks you'll have a different picture than if you spend 7,000

Also, the insurance is a small difference compared to Jose getting a tie down for $10/month vs $145 where i live.

For the OP, I would suspect he's on the lower end of insurance and annuals. but he can check with local airports to see what hangars/tie downs actually cost... he doesn't have to guess at that.

I'd envy paying $10 for tie down, would make justifying ownership a lot easier
 
2Airtime2 said:
I've looked locally at a private 2500' / 40' paved strip (no gas) and a 5500' county airport (pretty much full service). Both have hangers but none available. The private strip is $100 per mo. hanger and $25 per mo. tiedown. The county airport (only 20 minutes from my house) is $35 per mo. tiedown and $290 per month hanger. I would likely just get on the hanger list. The have av.gas for $5 per gallon. At least 1/2 the planes (older, lower cost) that I have seen ads for are already mogas approved. I have learned some people think there's a big difference in gas and will only use aviation. So far, going by the research I've done, I will be saving $2 per gallon on gas. I have a station 2 miles from my house that sells 93 octane non-ethanol for under $3 per gallon right now. I've got no problem buying a 50 gallon tank and pump for the back of my p/u truck.

I would check with the airport to make sure it's ok to fuel my own plane while tied. I hope off hrs fueling doesn't become necessary. :wink2:

The county airport also has several aircraft maintenance facilities on site. I talked to two A&P's at one of them and they were both very helpful with general info about old Piper's and Cessna's. We didn't talk about signing off on owner repairs but fixed gear annuals are $750 per yr with includes oil change. Repairs are extra.

I will definitely get a minimum of 10's of hours flight time and time with a low wing (Piper type) before making any purchase decisions.

I'm still in the research phase of all this.
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If you get a plane that runs on mogas, I'd use mogas if no ethanol gas is readily available.

There is a smaller grass field that is marginally closer, but I'd prefer the airport where I'm located. The main reason being lighted runway and instrument approaches. I've got a friend who has a plane at another grass field, and he's had to park his plane at my airport b/c he couldn't get into his field b/c of weather.
 
rbridges said:
If you get a plane that runs on mogas, I'd use mogas if no ethanol gas is readily available.

There is a smaller grass field that is marginally closer, but I'd prefer the airport where I'm located. The main reason being lighted runway and instrument approaches. I've got a friend who has a plane at another grass field, and he's had to park his plane at my airport b/c he couldn't get into his field b/c of weather.
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Right now I'm thinking, when I get a plane, I will keep it at the airport. Maybe after a few yrs I'll transfer to the smaller strip but only for sentimental reasons. The smaller strip has a club which still meets once a yr. My grandpa was a member of the club but he died in 1975. I went to their 43rd annual meeting a few months ago and there are pictures of my grandpa, grandma, and some of their planes on the clubhouse wall. I cried when I saw them. Their is still one guy that lives locally, that knew my grandpa, that is at the smaller strip regularly. It was very cool talking to him and 3 other guys (that knew grandpa) that flew into town for the meeting.

Walking around some of the old hangers their reminds me of some of the earliest memories I have. When I was maybe 4 yrs old thru 10 yrs old (when grandpa died) hanging out at grandpas main hanger while he was building, repairing, or maintaining bi-planes, Stearman's, etc.

Here's a picture of grandpa with his Tailwind at Ball Field in Louisburg NC. Ball is the smaller strip I've been talking about.


Here's a couple from the 1972 air races at Wilson NC

 
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