ppl training on tailwheel

That Fairchild sure look like a nice flying airplane. Is it light on the controls, Tom? The landing gear reminds me of the Great Lakes.
 
I flew a 24R a bit. Had the 200 Ranger and a Beech-Roby prop. Really a nice stable ride. Don
 
Like the way the warner looks, but bet it's easier to find parts for the ranger. Do they fly differently? It it a hard airplane to maintain? Not much on the web.
 
j1b3h0 said:
Like the way the warner looks, but bet it's easier to find parts for the ranger. Do they fly differently? It it a hard airplane to maintain? Not much on the web.
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The parts issues are starting to get really bad, the warner 145 cylinders are all worn beyond limits of the pistons available. as are all the Ranger cylinders
but the Warner 165 is very easy to find parts for. I had no problems getting the parts I needed to overhaul mine. There are even new engines for sale if you need to lighten your wallet.
 
j1b3h0 said:
That Fairchild sure look like a nice flying airplane. Is it light on the controls, Tom? The landing gear reminds me of the Great Lakes.
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see my vids on youtube search Fairchildflyer it is as easy as any conventional gear, that you can't see out of.
 
wabower said:
That's one reason I considered a 170. Haven't ever flown at 24, don't know if my wide load would fit.
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It was designed around the standard person of 1937 (5'5"/170#) It's not an easy aircraft to get into or out of.
 
I was about that size in the late 30's, but only 2 years old at the time.

Tom-D said:
It was designed around the standard person of 1937 (5'5"/170#) It's not an easy aircraft to get into or out of.
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wabower said:
I was about that size in the late 30's, but only 2 years old at the time.
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I though I had the 24 sold in 09 when it was flying great, A guy and his wife and kid flew from NC to see it, he had check in pocket, and ready to buy, when his wife wanted to set in it, she got in OK but when he got in, they couldn't close the doors.

he walked.
 
yakdriver said:
Its not as bad as a 195 or the back seat of a T-6.
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Even more so is the front seat of a Pitts. Seriously down in a manhole. Forward visibility is a nicety, not a necessity.
 
Tom-D said:
I though I had the 24 sold in 09 when it was flying great, A guy and his wife and kid flew from NC to see it, he had check in pocket, and ready to buy, when his wife wanted to set in it, she got in OK but when he got in, they couldn't close the doors.

he walked.
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Are the '46 models wider? I don't recall having that issue.
 
a year ago, I started this post about having troubles on landing, I am now a private pilot for almost 6months, flys tail wheel with more than 100 hours already. I have flew with different pilots and instructor, I have came to a conclusion that, my instructor was not good enough to teach tail wheel and couldn't find a solution to fix my landing. I am glad that I had switched instructor and fly with 2 different instructors to check out my landings. even though I got m private pilot license, I still learn something new everytime I go do some leisure flying. thanks for all the comments and replys
 
scarybus320 said:
a year ago, I started this post about having troubles on landing, I am now a private pilot for almost 6months, flys tail wheel with more than 100 hours already. I have flew with different pilots and instructor, I have came to a conclusion that, my instructor was not good enough to teach tail wheel and couldn't find a solution to fix my landing. I am glad that I had switched instructor and fly with 2 different instructors to check out my landings. even though I got m private pilot license, I still learn something new everytime I go do some leisure flying. thanks for all the comments and replys
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One nice thing about learning to fly a tailwheel is that the airplane itself will let you know what you're doing wrong. Actually keeps the instructor from having to keep harping so much on precision, which may seem unnecessary to a new pilot in trikes.
 
RoscoeT said:
One nice thing about learning to fly a tailwheel is that the airplane itself will let you know what you're doing wrong. Actually keeps the instructor from having to keep harping so much on precision, which may seem unnecessary to a new pilot in trikes.
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Agreed. But a good tailwheel instructor can place the student where the learning curve is steeper, and the skills required are readily apparent - like within 3ft of the runway. My students get to practice steering for the entire length of a 6000ft runway each time around the patch, so skills are learned well...hard to do when one gets only a few seconds of tap-dancing per touch and go.
 
Re: PPL training on a tail-wheel citabria.

scarybus320 said:
hi everyone, I am new here and would like to have some feed back from you guys on tail wheel.

I have logged 20hours on a citabria in 7 weeks since start my ppl training, prior to that I have no flying experience and 25 years old. I am almost there for solo but, my landings are bad and got frustrated from those 15knots crosswind from local airport with 2400ftx65ft runway.
if there a good way to be more proactive and get a better feel on the airplane before it starts to drifting, or going side ways. and after touch down, is there any good ways to sense the rudder fade. as my instructor have been told me, more practice and more practice. but I just couldn't make a smooth touch down like what he did. after 20landings for the past 3 days, i felt like, am I the only one have this problem.

Damian DelGaizo's tail-wheel training dvds are one of my training material. I found it helpful.

extra questions

what is the average hours for people to go on a first solo and get ppl from flying tail-wheel.
is it just my instructor, or in general. if I don't ask a question, they don't tell me much, when I asked, there will be a lot of stuff to explain from.
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Just keep working at it. I have read that for someone who starts out in a tailwheel plane it often takes very little more time to solo than if they started in a trike. I started in a Champ, but my instructor decided not to get insurance so I could solo.

THEN after about 35 hours in a 150 and a 20 year lay off, I took a gazillion hours to solo a taildragger.

EVERYONE has trouble of some sort at the stage you are in. There are those who just work through it and those who don't. Just make up your mind that you will work you way through it and keep going at it. I can PROMISE that one day soon you will be flying along wondering why there ever had to be anyone in that other seat.:)

Hang tough and stick it out!
 
scarybus320 said:
a year ago, I started this post about having troubles on landing, I am now a private pilot for almost 6months, flys tail wheel with more than 100 hours already. I have flew with different pilots and instructor, I have came to a conclusion that, my instructor was not good enough to teach tail wheel and couldn't find a solution to fix my landing. I am glad that I had switched instructor and fly with 2 different instructors to check out my landings. even though I got m private pilot license, I still learn something new everytime I go do some leisure flying. thanks for all the comments and replys
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That's why many call it a "license to learn."

I didn't notice that this thread was started a year ago when I wrote the above post.:redface:
 
I've written up a few of these things before, here are a few off the cuff.



Take that infinity point on the horizon and just fly right to it, dont do the happy feet crap (dancing on the rudder just to dance on it)

If you have to correct to the Right, remember you are putting a object in motion and you WILL need SOME left rudder in a half second or so to stop the plane from over correction left of your infinity point.

Keep your corrections small and progressive and JUST FLY TO THE INFINITY POINT, be smooth with your corrections, make them early and try to predict the NEXT thing the plane is going to do.

When I am working with my presolo guys I dont do fast taxi, always been a fan of low passes (six inches or less).

Stay OFF THE BRAKES, period!

If your CFI says do the "happy feet" thing, find a new CFI

I like to teach 2pts first, then 3pts, FYI your approach is EXACTLY the same, same speeds etc, it just changes after your cross the threshold

You should be able to do 2/3pts WITHOUT power (infact all your landings as a student should be without power), only add power if you need to go around, or the bottom is about to fall out.

BE SMOOTH!, nothing should be quick and jerky.
 
Wheel landings without power?
Sink rate with the Citabria: power off, trimmed for 60 kts, no flaps, is 350 - 500 fpm depending on wind etc.
How do you stick that sink rate/landing without power?
If you try to arrest the sink rate with pitch, you lower the tail to less than the level flight attitude. (I suppose it still qualifies as a wheel landing even if the TW is 6" off the RWY)
Pushing the stick to float the tail up, seems to increase the sink rate even further.
So how do you wheel land, with no power? :dunno:
 
21541803 said:
Wheel landings without power?
Sink rate with the Citabria: power off, trimmed for 60 kts, no flaps, is 350 - 500 fpm depending on wind etc.
How do you stick that sink rate/landing without power?
If you try to arrest the sink rate with pitch, you lower the tail to less than the level flight attitude. (I suppose it still qualifies as a wheel landing even if the TW is 6" off the RWY)
Pushing the stick to float the tail up, seems to increase the sink rate even further.
So how do you wheel land, with no power? :dunno:
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Practice! I consider a Citabria to be a pretty low power-off sink rate airplane. Power does make it easier, but it's a crutch, and not necessary. No need to modify your approach between 3-pointers and wheel landing, but if doing a wheel landing, you'll want to break your glide and roundout later and lower than if doing a 3-pointer. It takes practice to manage the energy such that you can put the airplane down smoothly in the short time window you have before the airplane slows enough to effectively put it close to a 3-point attitude. When first learning, it helps to add a little power in the roundout phase to give you more time to find the runway smoothly, but flying skillfully is all about practice, and you can do it without power just fine. Just don't tack on extra airspeed to give yourself more time to feel for the runway. That defeats the purpose of attempting to fly artfully. That's where the satisfaction and fun in tailwheel flying really comes from.
 
after a year of flying, i have logged 150 hours on citabria/decathlon and almost each flight, i learn something new, flying on tail wheel is really fun and enjoyable, also keeps my flying skills in shape and stay sharp. i also started a thread about landing at night, however, i got that fixed from another instructor and search all kinds of resources online. the only bad thing about this airplane is vfr only
 
21541803 said:
Wheel landings without power?
Sink rate with the Citabria: power off, trimmed for 60 kts, no flaps, is 350 - 500 fpm depending on wind etc.
How do you stick that sink rate/landing without power?
If you try to arrest the sink rate with pitch, you lower the tail to less than the level flight attitude. (I suppose it still qualifies as a wheel landing even if the TW is 6" off the RWY)
Pushing the stick to float the tail up, seems to increase the sink rate even further.
So how do you wheel land, with no power? :dunno:
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At 60 kts you've got plenty of energy. Pulling back on the stick will slow the descent rate, when the mains touch nudge forward. The hardest part about the later Citabrias is that the spring gear is so soft and willowy that it's hard to tell when they've touched. If you don't slow your descent rate enough or time the forward nudge right the tail comes down, AOA increases and you go flying again (bounce) If that happens you've got to either use power to try again or go for a 3-pointer.
 
NEVER put the stick forward.... fly the plane level to the infinity point (if that involves putting the stick forward, fine) but get the "stick forward" crap out of your head, all you are doing when the wheels touch is still trying to fly to that infinity point (just with the wheels on the ground and without power.)

Keep flying to that point until you are off the runway.

Also if you bounce a 2pt, you just killed a ton of energy, a bounced 2pt becomes one of two things, a go-around (safest option for rookies) OR a 3pt conversion.
 
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NineThreeKilo said:
NEVER put the stick forward.... fly the plane level to the infinity point (if that involves putting the stick forward, fine) but get the "stick forward" crap out of your head, all you are doing when the wheels touch is still trying to fly to that infinity point (just with the wheels on the ground and without power.)

Keep flying to that point until you are off the runway.

Also if you bounce a 2pt, you just killed a ton of energy, a bounced 2pt becomes one of two things, a go-around (safest option for rookies) OR a 3pt conversion.
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yup, I was taught that way, abandon the 2pt after a bounce or convert into a 3pt. depends on the wind too for going around or convert into a 3pt.
 
j1b3h0 said:
Jesse -
I encourage you to go practice high speed taxiing (35-50 mph) on your own or with another instructor. these exercises are the best way I know to develop really good rudder pedal feet.
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I've never personally used this technique. just never had a student to where it seemed like a good idea. I have them hold their take-off roll for an extra few seconds to work on directional control, but we briefed before the take off roll that we would reserve enough runway to get airborne, or abort if it got out of hand.

Every tailwheel student responds differently based on their previous experiences, learning level, etc. I think they key, no matter what teaching technique you use is knowing your limitations as an instructor. A 50 hour tailwheel CFI is going to be far more hesitant to let a good swerve develop for learning purposes than a 1,000 hour CFI. I'm positive that I took the controls earlier from students far earlier into a swerve than I do now. I can also pretty much predict what they're going to do and where the airplane is going to go several seconds before it touches down.

As you gain experience teaching you also get much more adept at being able to see what's coming and talking your students through timely corrections rather than manually correcting the situation. That said, I replace a lot more tires and tailwheel chains now than I used to when I more worried about ground looping:wink2:

Mike-

Silver Wings Flying Company, LLC
Olympia Regional Airport (KOLM)
www.Silverwingsflying.com
 
stearmann4 said:
Every tailwheel student responds differently based on their previous experiences, learning level, etc. I think they key, no matter what teaching technique you use is knowing your limitations as an instructor. A 50 hour tailwheel CFI is going to be far more hesitant to let a good swerve develop for learning purposes than a 1,000 hour CFI. I'm positive that I took the controls earlier from students far earlier into a swerve than I do now. I can also pretty much predict what they're going to do and where the airplane is going to go several seconds before it touches down.
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Agreed

I used to say I'm not a flight instructor, just a highly fined tuned crash preventor.

As for tail wheel CFIs, I think one needs at least a few hundred hours t/w before they are worth a damn as a tail wheel CFI.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
NEVER put the stick forward.... fly the plane level to the infinity point......
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We were discussing power off wheel landings in a Citabria. As you descend and the mains contact the runway and because of the fact that the CG is aft of the mains if you don't give the stick a forward nudge the tail is going to continue to go down which will result in a "bounce" as it increases the AOA of the wing.

So I'd disagree with the statement: "NEVER put the stick forward" You put the stick wherever it needs to be to get the airplane to do what you want it to.
 
Silvaire said:
We were discussing power off wheel landings in a Citabria. As you descend and the mains contact the runway and because of the fact that the CG is aft of the mains if you don't give the stick a forward nudge the tail is going to continue to go down which will result in a "bounce" as it increases the AOA of the wing.

So I'd disagree with the statement: "NEVER put the stick forward" You put the stick wherever it needs to be to get the airplane to do what you want it to.
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Re-read what I wrote.

The "put the stick forward" thought process is flawed and a ham handed approach to flying

The "continue flying to the horizon" thought process is much better, even though it ALSO involves forward stick motion.


Think of it like this, you have a new student learning to fly a trike (which most here can also relate too)

Instructor DumDum says, get real low with the power back, before the airplane touches PULL BACK (flare).

Instructor Bob says, get real low with the power back, just keep trying to hold the airplane a inch off the ground (flare).

Both instructors methods will produce a flare, just one is a ham handed, soon to be NTSB report way of doing it and the other is a...well... a little more graceful.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
The "put the stick forward" thought process is flawed and a ham handed approach to flying

The "continue flying to the horizon" thought process is much better, even though it ALSO involves forward stick motion.
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oooooookay....:rolleyes: you lost me but back to 21541803, the guy who asked the question of how to wheel land the Citabria with power off:

When the main wheels make contact with the runway you ARE gonna have to nudge forward on the stick to stop the tail from settling. It's simply a matter of elementary physics, nothing "ham handed" about it. With a bit of practice you'll nail it, it's not that difficult.
 
stearmann4 said:
I've never personally used this technique. just never had a student to where it seemed like a good idea. I have them hold their take-off roll for an extra few seconds to work on directional control, but we briefed before the take off roll that we would reserve enough runway to get airborne, or abort if it got out of hand.

Every tailwheel student responds differently based on their previous experiences, learning level, etc. I think they key, no matter what teaching technique you use is knowing your limitations as an instructor. A 50 hour tailwheel CFI is going to be far more hesitant to let a good swerve develop for learning purposes than a 1,000 hour CFI. I'm positive that I took the controls earlier from students far earlier into a swerve than I do now. I can also pretty much predict what they're going to do and where the airplane is going to go several seconds before it touches down.

As you gain experience teaching you also get much more adept at being able to see what's coming and talking your students through timely corrections rather than manually correcting the situation. That said, I replace a lot more tires and tailwheel chains now than I used to when I more worried about ground looping:wink2:

Mike-

Silver Wings Flying Company, LLC
Olympia Regional Airport (KOLM)
www.Silverwingsflying.com
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In more than 1000hrs of instructing in various tailwheel airplanes - mostly Citabria/Decathlon, I have found that it isn't enough to just teach my students how to land and takeoff...I have to teach them how to fix the directional control problems and bounces/porposing that they will eventually create for themselves. For instance, on a long, wide runway after my student lands, I will set the airplane up at about 40mph, tail in the air, and have the student put his left main tire on the centerline of the runway, then his right tire. Someone who is skilled can wheel land the Citabria on one tire and weave between the runway stripes. I let them recover from many swerves, bounces, porposes. I get them to fly over the centerline in a 15kt crosswind to practice just the right amount of slip. In short, I want them to be safe on their own. In more demanding taildraggers one has to tone it down a bit - in a Stearman kinder, gentler, but still the same idea.
 
j1b3h0 said:
In more than 1000hrs of instructing in various tailwheel airplanes - mostly Citabria/Decathlon, I have found that it isn't enough to just teach my students how to land and takeoff...I have to teach them how to fix the directional control problems and bounces/porposing that they will eventually create for themselves....
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Oh come on, what are you some kind of Mother hen? I learned to fly in a J3 Cub at the age of 16, soloed with less than five hours logged. Is there some sort of inherent fear in people these days that will not allow something like that to happen again. :dunno:
 
Kind of have to agree, it's sort of the same thing as letting a student solo even though they're not completely ready to get kicked out of the next. Some learning can only take place when they get some more time under their belt.

In the 6-10 hours it takes most of my students to finish their tailwheel training in the Cub, they can competently demonstrate a 3-point, and wheel landings in crosswind, and a go-around as per the FAR. I would think alternating wheels down the centerline, and short, narrow strip landings would be somewhat of an advanced training. I have had some students who grasped the concepts quickly and we ended up doing some "advanced training".

Mike-
 
@ Silvaire - I learned to fly at a young age, too. It's not the same as learning when one is 40. Had a lot more 40yr+ students than teenagers. And, yeah, as an instructor there's a certain 'mother hen' sort of concern for my students' safety. These kind of runway exersizes take but a couple of hours before most students get the jist of it. Many of my students were ostensibly "checked out" by other instructors who sort of glossed over the art of flying a tailwheel (or, were barely above student level themselves - in a tailwheel airplane) and subsequently scared themself...or worse.

How many of your tailwheel students solo in 6hrs?
 
I am a PPL with 300 hrs in Cessna 172, 177 and 182's. I can land all of those fine and my crosswind landings are even better then non crosswind. Part of that is my CFI had me in the pattern every time the Santa Ana winds blew. So now I am working on my tail wheel and flying a Fairchild PT 19. I am not getting the landings at all, I just hope that with practice it will click one day as my other landings did, what you are going through is the same as many others.
 
Karl, those Santa Ana winds will make a man outa you. I used to fly to Palm Springs when they were blowing dogs off chains...one place I sinched my seat belts and meant it! Do you like the PT-19?
 
Love the PT-19. It is not mine, my friend has restored it and I mean every stringer and every piece of wood re done. There is a second one being done as well. My tail wheel CFI loves it more then I do. When he was a teenager his dad bought several for his flight school, so after 40 years of flying them he has got good at them. Lucky to have him train me, he works for a major airline as a senior captian so i am overjoyed he takes his spare time to train me. Sorry to take the thread of track.
 
Silvaire said:
oooooookay....:rolleyes: you lost me but back to 21541803, the guy who asked the question of how to wheel land the Citabria with power off:

When the main wheels make contact with the runway you ARE gonna have to nudge forward on the stick to stop the tail from settling. It's simply a matter of elementary physics, nothing "ham handed" about it. With a bit of practice you'll nail it, it's not that difficult.
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Exactly right. If you don't either release the stick's back pressure, or nudge it forward, the CG's downward inertia will pull the tail down, the wing's AoA will increase, and you get a bounce. The level-until-infinity thing sounds ok at first but it will take a LONG runway to afford such gentle contact and rollout as to avoid taking off again. Level means low AoA which means high speed. Wheel landing simply means tail off, and that might only be three or four inches off.

I used to be a flight instructor in Citabrias, Champs, Cessna 180 and 185. Wheel landings are preferred by the Cessnas when running light, since their CG is far forward, the horizontal stab is close to the ground, and trying to three-point it uses up all the elevator one has and ground effect on the stab still wants to keep the tail up. A wheel landing has to be done just right with that gear or you'll get a good bounce going and have to go around. Some operators, especially bush operators, will teach their pilots short-field techniques using wheel landings. Get the approach speed to minimum, flare very little and make contact, dump the flaps and get the tail well up to kill all lift and get the brakes on hard, using the elevator to keep the tail from rising any further. I have done these myself in all the taildraggers I've flown and it works well once one has the experience to be comfortable with it. I have landed the 185 and stopped it in under 300 feet.

I know of one outfit flying Helios that has the tail WAY up for weight on the mains, power on for elevator control and lots of brake. Can get stopped really short that way on marginal strips, and on such strips the Helio is easily able to get out again. Strip length is often less of a hassle than the tall trees that force touchdown well down the runway, and you'd better know how to stop quick.

In flying the airplane, which is anytime it is moving, we use ALL the controls to make the machine do what we want. And that includes the elevator in wheel landings.

Dan
 
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