James331
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James331
PPL actual short-field
- Thread starter MotoHawk
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Ghery
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Ghery Pettit
You consider landing a C172 on a 2500' strip as difficult as landing a B25 on carrier
I didn't realize that back at my first solo I was right up there with Doolittle
Sorry, but if you can't teach a new pilot how to land a normal trainer on a 2k strip from the ghetgo, well that's just weak.
Actually, that is pretty easy when you do it the way they did it. With a crane. Now, they did take off from the carrier.
This really degenerated. The best thing for you to do has been suggested. Grab a CFI and tell him what you want to work on. I remember back a number of years ago when I was working on my complex endorsement we went over to Westport (14S) and did a few landings and takeoffs from there in the Arrow. Too short for T&Gs there. Great confidence builder knowing that I could stop in about 1000 feet without any trouble, back taxi and take off with runway to spare (2318 feet of runway).
Anytime you come up with something you want to work on, grab a CFI and have at it. I know I will before I ever venture down to W27 by myself. Driving by on I-5 it sure looks shorter than the claimed 1953 feet. Plus the obstacles at each end make it look claustrophobic.
Oh, and while the FAA requires a flight review every other year our club requires the equivalent every year. And as I never manage to get the required approaches, etc every 6 months I grab a CFII and do an IPC periodically. Just because you have that certificate doesn't mean that you are finished with instructors. Besides, it's another excuse to fly.
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SoonerAviator
Well, instrument approaches generally have a glideslope that puts the aircraft right on the 1K' marks. Also, the number of times when pilots have landed short of the runway because they were trying to land on the numbers seems to support the idea that aiming to touchdown on the 500' or 1K' markers is a worthwhile approach tactic. I don't tend to land that far down the runway, but I understand why it is taught that way.
cirrusmx
Line Up and Wait
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campoalavista
touching down in the numbers and stopping before the 1000 ft markers is always fun and good practice. just watch out for obstacles on your approach path.
Thats cause your sight picture on final is based on peripheral vision. Ever notice how you kinda 'zone out' on final to find out how high/low you are? Peripheral vision isnt good at fine detail thou, so you can't really make out the the centerline as well as the whole runway. so a larger runway creates a larger target, and as said on American Sniper, "aim large miss large, aim small miss small" --but thats all a theory and may be bs
Jimmy cooper
En-Route
If one cannot land a 172 in 2500 feet of runway the instructor has not done right by them. That should be an easy landing or takeoff. At an airport I frequent 2200 feet of paved is what they have, or 2500 feet of grass. They teach daily in 172s and in a 150 Citabria. An aero star and an aero commander both turbine and shrike have operated out of here often.
Cpt_Kirk
En-Route
I first heard that quote in "The Patriot."
txflyer
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Fly it like you STOL it ♦
http://www.risingup.com/planespecs/info/airplane285.shtml
Cessna 172 M Skyhawk - Performance Data
Horsepower: 150 Gross Weight: 2300 lbs
Top Speed: 122 kts Empty Weight: 1335 lbs
Cruise Speed: 115 kts Fuel Capacity: 42 gal
Stall Speed (dirty): 44 kts Range: 435 nm
Takeoff
Ground Roll: 865 ft
Over 50 ft obstacle: 1525 ft
Landing
Ground Roll 520 ft
Over 50 ft obstacle: 1250 ft
Rate Of Climb: 645 fpm
Ceiling: 13100 ft
I'm assuming these figures are performed at gross weight.
Cessna 172 M Skyhawk - Performance Data
Horsepower: 150 Gross Weight: 2300 lbs
Top Speed: 122 kts Empty Weight: 1335 lbs
Cruise Speed: 115 kts Fuel Capacity: 42 gal
Stall Speed (dirty): 44 kts Range: 435 nm
Takeoff
Ground Roll: 865 ft
Over 50 ft obstacle: 1525 ft
Landing
Ground Roll 520 ft
Over 50 ft obstacle: 1250 ft
Rate Of Climb: 645 fpm
Ceiling: 13100 ft
I'm assuming these figures are performed at gross weight.
Some CFIs flew hour one 9 months ago and have not flown off of less than a mile, much less grass, themselves.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
I agree, but like StewartB said, the bigger issue is speed control and precision. If you don't have that down, you are going to have trouble anywhere. Get those nailed where you have more room to recover from mistakes and you then shift to the smaller strips to see the difference in the sight picture.
If you trim there is no problem with speed control because the plane does it itself.
Tflhndn
Pre-takeoff checklist
Or you can have a CFI like mine, who is based out of a 2400x25 strip. I had 13 landings on that field before we went anywhere else.
Find the CFIs that live at a small strip and do it everyday.
aggie06
Line Up and Wait
I'm a recently minted PPL and thought the biggest difference for actual short field was judging pattern size with a much smaller runway. Although my CFI wasn't big on that "perfect pattern makes perfect landing" theory. He said you should be able to adjust and land it no matter what.
I will say that actual grass as way different than simulated soft field. First actual grass was with a passenger and I never told her all that sliding down the runway wasn't normal. I did immediately text my CFI and tell him our next flight was going to be to a grass strip.
I will say that actual grass as way different than simulated soft field. First actual grass was with a passenger and I never told her all that sliding down the runway wasn't normal. I did immediately text my CFI and tell him our next flight was going to be to a grass strip.
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
My glider CFI was really big on the concept of TLAR (that looks about right), adjusting throughout the pattern/landing to keep it looking right. I remember for a while, after my PP check ride, I seemed to have problems landing at unfamiliar airports. I realized it was because I was using visual cues from landmarks I was used to seeing, rather than paying attention to the sight picture.
txflyer
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Fly it like you STOL it ♦
Big wide runways will trick you into flaring too high, and skinny strips are the opposite.
For whatever human vision reasons, you'll tend to plow into a skinny strip.
A trick you can do on a very large wide runway is to land between the centerline and edge of the runway to avoid flaring too high.
For whatever human vision reasons, you'll tend to plow into a skinny strip.
A trick you can do on a very large wide runway is to land between the centerline and edge of the runway to avoid flaring too high.
Stewartb
Final Approach
Familiarity. That's what actual training promotes. Pretend short field training promotes pretend familiarity.
2400' is a long runway unless you are up high. 25 is kinda narrow, but it really doesn't make things more difficult, just that errors can be more costly for a smaller error.
Tflhndn
Pre-takeoff checklist
It certainly seems plenty long so far, it is also sloped and so far I haven't had to try the downhill landing.
Between the slope and the obstructions at the approach end of 27, it shortens up real quick if your approach is off.
Between the slope and the obstructions at the approach end of 27, it shortens up real quick if your approach is off.
Stewartb
Final Approach
Here's a short video of going into my cabin strip on a very pretty day. Not my best work but it's the only video I have to offer. This strip is 1100' x 15' including the turn-around area on the approach end in this clip. My parking spot is 700' downfield. No heroics required. There's plenty of space. This isn't a particularly short or tricky strip on a nice day. On a crosswind day it's a handful. You get comfortable with what you're used to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlfuPVDE7CY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlfuPVDE7CY
For some reason that link won't work for me, multiple tries.
Edit, Started working. You're gonna lose a camera to a rock.
Nice spot.
Last edited:
Stewartb
Final Approach
That's the GoPro 3+ Black. I don't care for that camera much so it gets the dirty chores. It has an NFlight ND cover on the lens. That rock took a chunk out of it. Honestly the rock spray is one of the things I was looking for.
txflyer
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Fly it like you STOL it ♦
Makes me want to go clean the belly of my plane!
Nice work.
Nice work.
The view I have come to like best is from over the inside shoulder of the right seat about 1/3 of the way into the back seat area. Another one is looking forward from the strut and the top of the vertical fairing.
Wow, I had a thought, put one in the middle of the spinner.
txflyer
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Fly it like you STOL it ♦
The view I have come to like best is from over the inside shoulder of the right seat about 1/3 of the way into the back seat area. Another one is looking forward from the strut and the top of the vertical fairing.
Wow, I had a thought, put one in the middle of the spinner.
My favorite view is from out on the end of the horizontal stab.
But don't trust those 3M sticky things.
Don't ask how I know....
My favorite view is from out on the end of the horizontal stab.
But don't trust those 3M sticky things.
Don't ask how I know....
I like the perspective, but every one I have seen from there has that nauseating warble to it, that annoys me to no end.
bflynn
Final Approach
I dunno, I didn't find it that different. The willingness to go around if you've got too much power is important, but otherwise you aim for the grass, flare over the threshold and touchdown just past the numbers with 1000' to taxi down. I wasn't using all that extra runway before, why should I have cared about it not being there.
Similar, the only real difference I found on actual grass was that it was bumpier than I thought it would be.
Go out and fly and have fun. Gradually increase your distances. Look forward, not back. Study IFR
You made it here. Now enjoy it.
TRocket
Line Up and Wait
Doing my training based at a 2835 x 40 strip, seems to be more than enough runway. I actually like it better than the big runways.
labbadabba
Pattern Altitude
I think insurance has a lot to do with it. At least with grass strips. Some schools just have a policy that don't allow CFIs to push the envelope. It's not always your CFI.
I was fortunate enough to have K34 right next to KIXD where I earned my ticket. Runway 8/26 at K34 is 2960 x 39 ft with a displaced threshold. And being a East/West runway in Kansas it is almost always subject to a healthy x-wind.
I was fortunate enough to have K34 right next to KIXD where I earned my ticket. Runway 8/26 at K34 is 2960 x 39 ft with a displaced threshold. And being a East/West runway in Kansas it is almost always subject to a healthy x-wind.
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
K34 is handy - a couple of grass rwys and a short, narrow, paved strip. Gotta love the days when the wind is coming from such a direction there is a healthy x-wind on all 6 rwy choices!
At all the FBOs I've rented from over the years, I haven't seen any short field restrictions in their rental agreements. I HAVE seen FBO restrictions on 'other than paved', so you need to look carefully at that before you go somewhere. One FBO didn't want landings at any other-than-paved without prior permission. One FBO didn't want landings at any other than-paved except those on a pre-approved list. One FBO said, as long as it's public use and not gravel, it's your call.
Maciej
Line Up and Wait
The flight school I use and rent from has insurance restrictions that stipulate renters aren't to land at fields with less than 3500', or if you get checked out by the chief instructor no less than 3000'. No soft fields either.