PPL actual short-field

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MotoHawk

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MotoHawk
Hello All!

Been following this forum for a while, and got my PPL in NOV after 5-some years + 100 hours of active/inactive training. Never gave up the dream and never going to.

My rant here is my lack of flight experience outside of very basic VFR gained during your PPL. I keep asking myself, why haven't I landed on a runway shorter than a mile? And hey, why don't I have any Flight Following exp for that matter.

You pay quite alot for training. So why don't instructors teach you more than whats required for the PPL practical? I have been to three flight schools, got a 92 on the written, landed at 11 airports, practiced spin recovery, and hit my own wake turbulence during steep turns. Still, as a student, when I ask to land at the runway that is 1700 long, or at least try an approach, I am met with hesitation and avoidance. Wouldn't at least seeing the pattern of a short runway help a pilot understand what to expect in a true short field? So why are most instructors and flight schools avoiding this part of training?

As it stands now, if i am forced to land at a short field in an emergency, i will have no prior experience of sights or timing. Yet I am licensed to do such a landing.

The great part is that if I crash during such a landing I would no doubt be held under part 91.13 Carless or Reckless Operation.

Any advice on bettering you flight training experience? My instructor was helpful and great, but for this reason alone I am thinking of finding another.
 
Some CFIs are more thorough than others.

It's called a "License to Learn". Now is your chance.

If you want to work on something, get a CFI and have at it!

And welcome aboard!
 
That was just your instructors lack of experience or being lazy.

I always do some soft field work at a soft field, falling leaf stalls, spins if I can, flying a pattern based off feel, read short and soft field work, oil change and tire change if possible, etc.

Find a good CFI and/or backcountry pilot and do some flying.
 
I'm assuming you did part 61 training. Each individual's training is going to be different based on the CFI and the student. In my training I did actual short and soft field landings on an actual short grass field. I also did spin training, some instrument work and a few other non required things to pass a check ride. Nothing is stopping you from grabbing a CFI and doing these landings now.
 
Rent from an FBO on a short field. I got my license on a 3000' runway, and during checkride prep made a simulated engine out landing to a full stop on a 2000' grass strip.

Or hire a CFI specifically to visit somewhere short(er). Do what it takes to make yourself comfortable.

My parents moved a couple years ago, and while I have several alternate choices ranging up to 11,000 feet long, the closest field (10 minutes away) is 2770 x 30. Nothing like landing a low wing plane with both wingtips extending over runway lights to teach you the value of precision.

But my wife complains that I often land 4-6 feet left of center, that she can see the stripe. You do need to be able to land precisely when necessary, though.
 
I wish my student would come in and ask for things like that. I wish he would come with questions about stuff he allegedly read over the past week.
 
Welcome to the POA, go out and find an instructor who will work with you,start to fly what you think ,you need.
 
Thanks all that helps alot. I've done 61 and 141 and in my exp most 141 schools are larger and more docile; last one I flew at divided practice areas into 10x10nm squares. Needless to say I spent most of my time there doing 180 turns before leaving. (Mid State aviation Ellensburg WA)

My instructor before last got me lost 30 miles from the airport in MVFR and told me to find a nearby airport. That was 61, and that was training/a confidence booster. I'm continuing to think instructor and school policy are all that matter in flight training.

I'll make sure to hire an instructor for a s/f. Now that I'm PIC it's fly where I wanna go or don't get paid lol. Thnx again
 
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Find a CFI that will help you learn these things, and work with you. Also if you have never landed on a grass strip, i recommend it!
 
MotoHawk said:
Thanks all that helps alot. I've done 61 and 141 and in my exp most 141 schools are larger and more docile; last one I flew at divided practice areas into 10x10nm squares. Needless to say I spent most of my time there doing 180 turns before leaving. (Mid State aviation Ellensburg WA)

My instructor before last got me lost 30 miles from the airport in MVFR and told me to find a nearby airport. That was 61, and that was training/a confidence booster. I'm continuing to think instructor and school policy are all that matter in flight training.

I'll make sure to hire an instructor for a s/f. Now that I'm PIC it's fly where I wanna go or don't get paid lol. Thnx again
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You're in WA?

I learned to fly at Harvey, 2500x35

Join this group and ask the same question

https://m.facebook.com/groups/96292529147?ref=bookmark
 
At the risk of pointing out the obvious, you don't need a 1700 foot runway to practice landing in 1700 feet. Pull up your home runway in google earth and use the ruler to measure off 1700 or whatever. Find a landmark that you can see at the field and practice away at it. Some runways have the white-on-black thousands of feet markers.

Just saw you're in Ellensburg. I grew up in Cle Elum, my dad went to Ellensburg High, sister went to Central. Small world, hope to come up this summer.
 
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Old Geek said:
At the risk of pointing out the obvious, you don't need a 1700 foot runway to practice landing in 1700 feet. Pull up your home runway in google earth and use the ruler to measure off 1700 or whatever. Find a landmark that you can see at the field and practice away at it. Some runways have the white-on-black thousands of feet markers.

Just saw you're in Ellensburg. I grew up in Cle Elum, my dad went to Ellensburg High, sister went to Central. Small world, hope to come up this summer.
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This.


Go measure 1700 feet and make sure you get airborne within 1700 feet. Same for landing.

I fly off a strip that has a 250' 500'. 750' and 1000' hash mark on the edge of the runway..
 
Get your tailwheel endorsement and put those CFI hours to good use.

You'll do plenty of short field work if your instructor is good. Or just tell him to take you to a soft short field. Taildraggers love grass. You'll love it too.

You're paying. Demand what you want.
 
JoseCuervo said:
This.


Go measure 1700 feet and make sure you get airborne within 1700 feet. Same for landing.

I fly off a strip that has a 250' 500'. 750' and 1000' hash mark on the edge of the runway..
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No


Landing at a real short field is different than playing pretend.
 
TommyG said:
I wish my student would come in and ask for things like that. I wish he would come with questions about stuff he allegedly read over the past week.
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Some students place themselves completely in the hands of their instructor and expect the instructor to lead them through everything.

Try giving your students a requirement that when they come for their next flight, they have to have a list of questions from any reading they were supposed to do, and also a list of requests for specific training flights that they have either had problems with or have questions about.
 
James331 said:
No


Landing at a real short field is different than playing pretend.
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Sure is! The view is different without the extra 2000+ feet of asphalt out front. Plus there is a need to get down and stopped, rather than just shucks, I went too far.

One of the benefits of lessons at a shorter field, so few are intimidating. On a BFR, I had an instructor take me to his home field, 2440 x 40, and after the first couple of landings we did simulated engine out to full stop.

Just have an instructor with you for your initial practice. My initial practice was my entire time as a student, level off on final until the numbers were visible over the trees, cut power and land. Had I learned at the Class D just 4 nm away, going into my base would have scared the bejeebers out of me.

This will open up many more airports to you. Good luck, grab a good CFI and have fun.
 
James331 said:
No


Landing at a real short field is different than playing pretend.
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Ain't that the truth! You can build your confidence though on a 5,000 ft runway... if you're taking up 3/4 the runway on landings then stay away from shorter ones.
 
James331 said:
No


Landing at a real short field is different than playing pretend.
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So what would you recommend, mr badazz?

You have to start somewhere. Work the landing distance on a safe runway where you can specifically measure your performance. When you can consistently get the airplane down and stopped within a desired distance, then start flying into the shorter runways. Your airplane will thank you.
 
James331 said:
No


Landing at a real short field is different than playing pretend.
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I think that's up for debate, I trained out of KCDW with two runways that are 3700' and 4500' respectively, meanwhile I had no trouble landing at Andover Aeroflot (12N) with a 1900' runway. Ultimately I think it's all about how you were trained, from the beginning of my training for my PPL I was always taught to touch down at the numbers and with that mindset I haven't had any trouble landing at shorter fields.
 
Fearless Tower said:
So what would you recommend, mr badazz?

You have to start somewhere. Work the landing distance on a safe runway where you can specifically measure your performance. When you can consistently get the airplane down and stopped within a desired distance, then start flying into the shorter runways. Your airplane will thank you.
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Well I'd start with a quality CFI at a short field...

Also anyone who thinks it's not "safe" to land a normal trainer on a 2k runway is a sad critter IMO

Here's the deal, most all the planes folks here fly can easily land on a 2500x30 strip, most every pilot knows how to do it, it's mostly psychological in my experience.

Also playing pretend is a C R A P way to teach, you train like you need to preform and you'll preform like how you trained, counting stripes and trying to make believe on a 10,000' runway is a failure on the part of the CFI.

Let's keep in mind that many short strips are short due to obstacles, dumping flaps (if you got em) and slipping into land is a good skill to eat minimal runway, that's a skill not often thought of for pilots flying out of a mile long runway.

I soloed at a 2500x30ish strip, fence on short final and power lines on the other side, it was a busy little field, plenty of training, both fixed wing and rotor, large DZ complete with caravans, it really wasn't a issue for a fresh student to solo there and god knows I wasn't the first, schools been turning out pilots at that field since the late 40s.

None of the students there thought anything of it because we were just used to it, it's not like landing on water on tundras and decelerating to a small sand bar or something crazy.

95% of runways you'll see on a sectional any private pilot in a standard issue GA plane (172/152/PA28) should be able to land on without much heroic action :dunno:
 
James331 said:
Also playing pretend is a C R A P way to teach, you train like you need to preform and you'll preform like how you trained, counting stripes and trying to make believe on a 10,000' runway is a failure on the part of the CFI.
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No thanks... I'll stick to doing power off and on stalls clear above the actual runway and when I practice emergency engine out procedures I won't actually kill the engine.
 
Some of these comments are surprising.

My POH talks in take off and landing numbers that are in hundreds of feet, not thousands. :dunno:
 
In regards to soft fields, many FBO's and/or schools prohibit landing on non-solid runways or whatever is stipulated in the rental agreement and insurance requirements. Just something to be aware of.
 
Find a different CFI who WANTS to teach pilots new tricks, even if you already are a PPL holder.

I am lucky because I have two ex-CFI friends who love to do "out-of-the-ordinary" stuff with me after my PPL.

Or like somebody already suggested, go for a TW endorsement.
 
I'm trying to remember my own training - home rwy was 4100. I'm pretty sure the shortest rwy I landed on was 2200x20 (paved), R23 at 3GV, I don't remember the shortest turf rwy we did, might have been 2200x80. Less than 2000 and I start to look very carefully at adding up takeoff and landing distances for a balanced field - but that's just me.
 
People are lazy. People can't teach what they don't know.

I love to teach for the sake of transferring what I know to someone who wants to learn what I know. Find someone who wants to teach you. They're out there.
 
OkieAviator said:
No thanks... I'll stick to doing power off and on stalls clear above the actual runway and when I practice emergency engine out procedures I won't actually kill the engine.
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Lol :hairraise:
 
James331 said:
Well I'd start with a quality CFI at a short field...
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That's a trip, because every 'quality CFI' I know starts their students on longer runways and works down from there.

Your comment is akin to having the Doolittle Raiders start practicing on the ship.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That's a trip, because every 'quality CFI' I know starts their students on longer runways and works down from there.

Your comment is akin to having the Doolittle Raiders start practicing on the ship.
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You consider landing a C172 on a 2500' strip as difficult as landing a B25 on carrier

I didn't realize that back at my first solo I was right up there with Doolittle :rofl:

Sorry, but if you can't teach a new pilot how to land a normal trainer on a 2k strip from the ghetgo, well that's just weak.
 
James331 said:
You consider landing a C172 on a 2500' strip as difficult as landing a B25 on carrier

I didn't realize that back at my first solo I was right up there with Doolittle :rofl:

Sorry, but if you can't teach a new pilot how to land a normal trainer on a 2k strip from the ghetgo, well that's just weak.
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I'm sorry, I forgot just how badazz you is!
 
MotoHawk said:
Hello All!

Been following this forum for a while, and got my PPL in NOV after 5-some years + 100 hours of active/inactive training. Never gave up the dream and never going to.

My rant here is my lack of flight experience outside of very basic VFR gained during your PPL. I keep asking myself, why haven't I landed on a runway shorter than a mile? And hey, why don't I have any Flight Following exp for that matter.

You pay quite alot for training. So why don't instructors teach you more than whats required for the PPL practical? I have been to three flight schools, got a 92 on the written, landed at 11 airports, practiced spin recovery, and hit my own wake turbulence during steep turns. Still, as a student, when I ask to land at the runway that is 1700 long, or at least try an approach, I am met with hesitation and avoidance. Wouldn't at least seeing the pattern of a short runway help a pilot understand what to expect in a true short field? So why are most instructors and flight schools avoiding this part of training?

As it stands now, if i am forced to land at a short field in an emergency, i will have no prior experience of sights or timing. Yet I am licensed to do such a landing.

The great part is that if I crash during such a landing I would no doubt be held under part 91.13 Carless or Reckless Operation.

Any advice on bettering you flight training experience? My instructor was helpful and great, but for this reason alone I am thinking of finding another.
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My advice is to dismiss 90% of what's been said on this thread. If you're a new pilot or a laid-off pilot that's out of practice the best thing you can do is to fly some hours and get proficient in the airplane. I doubt your instructor was deficient in your instruction. More likely he recognized that you weren't ready for more than basic short field operations.

Short field landings are the aggregate of three factors. Airspeed control, precise touchdown spot control, and braking. New or inexperienced pilots usually aren't good in any of those regimes. It takes time and practice and desire to learn how to bring an airplane down at Vs 1.1 or less and hit your spot. To do real STOL stuff you need to do it in variable winds in unfamiliar LZs. Braking? Big difference between pavement, gravel, soft sand, grass, or snow. The only way you can judge what's what is after experiencing these conditions. For now try to nail your airspeed on final, experiment with steeper approaches for every management, be focused on hitting your spots, and slowly try your braking authority of different surfaces. When you think you're good and can land in 500' go prove it at an unfamiliar 1000' strip. And always remember, most of our planes can land safely in shorter areas than we can get back out of so don't do anything stupid. The best thing is to get more flight experience and seek further instruction.

Crawl before you walk, walk before you run. Have fun, fly safe.
 
I'll throw in a +1 for practice a few 'dummy runs' at your home base by pretending the field is short, then move to an actual short field and get in some practice there.

During training, I was spoiled by getting to land at a 6000x150 the majority of the time. My CFI broke that up by chopping the throttle and having me do simulated engine-outs followed by emergency go-arounds (from the flare!) at a 2100x16(!) paved strip. There was so much grass growing on it, I thought it was a fence line from the sky! The stripes on that 6000x150 seemed wider than the entire runway at the other. My centerline-nailing-short-field-master-ace-pilot ego was put in check with a quickness.
 
Stewartb said:
Short field landings are the aggregate of three factors. Airspeed control, precise touchdown spot control, and braking. New or inexperienced pilots usually aren't good in any of those regimes. It takes time and practice and desire to learn how to bring an airplane down at Vs 1.1 or less and hit your spot. To do real STOL stuff you need to do it in variable winds in unfamiliar LZs. Braking? Big difference between pavement, gravel, soft sand, grass, or snow. The only way you can judge what's what is after experiencing these conditions. For now try to nail your airspeed on final, experiment with steeper approaches for every management, be focused on hitting your spots, and slowly try your braking authority of different surfaces. When you think you're good and can land in 500' go prove it at an unfamiliar 1000' strip. And always remember, most of our planes can land safely in shorter areas than we can get back out of so don't do anything stupid. The best thing is to get more flight experience and seek further instruction.

Crawl before you walk, walk before you run. Have fun, fly safe.
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This is very good advice. Get the basics of speed control and precision down first. You need to have those down before worrying about the size of the runway.
 
Thinking back when I was instructing there was a short field (2000ft grass with obstacles) near our home airport. However, I didn't have students fly in there simply because I didn't enjoy short-field take-offs where an engine hiccup at the wrong time would put you into the trees. Occasionally a student would ask and I'd do it but I always said a prayer on take-off.

I do agree practicing on longer runways is not the same because the clearways are so long you have to use an invisible obstacle. Way different then actual trees at either end of the runway. Technique is the same, intimidation factor isn't.
 
JoseCuervo said:
He has never flown off less than 5000'.
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Ok looking back I have done a few landings at 4300's, but still I fly a friggin 152.

Never had issues with landing with more than 3000 feet left. I tended to land short by an amount when told to land on the 500' and 1000' i.e. checkride. But I never had issues landing on the numbers. Would occasionally go into ground effect over the displaced threshhold and litterally land on the numbers.

Continuing down the runway trying to get past those markers always seemed weird. I mean how would landing a 1/3 of the way down the runway be helpful? Possibly for engine outs?
 
MotoHawk said:
Ok looking back I have done a few landings at 4300's, but still I fly a friggin 152.

Never had issues with landing with more than 3000 feet left. I tended to land short by an amount when told to land on the 500' and 1000' i.e. checkride. But I never had issues landing on the numbers. Would occasionally go into ground effect over the displaced threshhold and litterally land on the numbers.

Continuing down the runway trying to get past those markers always seemed weird. I mean how would landing a 1/3 of the way down the runway be helpful? Possibly for engine outs?
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It is actually quite a confidence builder when you fly on a runway that is smaller, or, a bigger one that has hash marks. When you see the plane will actually start flying in a much shorter distance, or, that you can get it down and stopped. (hard on brakes, but if it is a rental..... well..... :dunno: )


The other thing is, smaller, and especially narrower runways, somehow have a subliminal ability to sharpen your focus and magnetically draw your plane to the centerline and the touchdown point, for some reason. My landings on backcountry strips with non standard approaches and narrow tire tracks are far more precise than landings on 10,000 controlled runways. Shouldn't be, but, they are.
 
FlySince9 said:
Thank-you! Didn't think it needed to be said...glad you did...
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I still stand by my advice that it is good practice for him, and will allow him to learn that is plane is capable, even if he isn't. That is half the battle.
 
JoseCuervo said:
I still stand by my advice that it is good practice for him, and will allow him to learn that is plane is capable, even if he isn't. That is half the battle.
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The perspective is all off... The practice on a long, wide runway has limited benefit for what he is trying to accomplish...IMO...but it is my opinion...and you know what they say about those...:rolleyes:
 
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