PP-ASEL New Type No Checkout

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

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Jaybird180
Hypothetical question but may have some applicability

You, a low-mid time PP arrive at the airport and an opportunity arises for your to fly a new-to-you type but there is no one to go with you. The owner, simply gives you the keys and says "have fun, just fill it with gas when you're done". He turns and walks away and says that he'll be out of town a couple days.

What do you do to ensure you return the aircraft back to your friend? You know no-one with experience in type except the owner and there are no CFIs to be found.

The aircraft is category/class legal for you to fly. You're 90 day current for day/night VFR carrying passengers and have a current medical.
 
Start with a careful read through the POH, noting important airspeeds, procedures, etc...

Do a thorough cockpit familiarization - know where EVERYTHING is in the cockpit and be able to find it quickly.
 
Self check out routine for me is go through the POH/whatever info the plane has, find all the controls and switches, a bit of taxi time paying attention to the sight picture on wheels, then take off and a bit of slow flight to see how it handles slow and in and near stall, and work up my 1.5, 1.3, & Vso, a bit of other air work, and then some pattern work. All planes fly pretty much the same.
 
C172 to a C150 or Cherokee 140, probably not much of an issue. C172 to an RV7, may want a little dual first.
 
I'll pull out the POH and go through the "General Info, Normal Procedures, Systems, and Emergency Procedures." Cockpit familiarization comes next with a basic flow pattern.

Then, I'd go fly.

The fact that people are too scared to go fly an airplane that they're entirely qualified for is rampant these days.

"Go fly a 172?!?! But I've only flown a 152!!!!!!"
 
Seems this would be a fairly common scenario for single-seat airplanes.
 
Cockpit familiarization and an airspeed review are priorities 1 and 2. I too am bothered by the growing trend of everyone thinking they need some elaborate checkout in a single engine airplane. The same principles of flight apply to all of them, and any reasonably skilled pilot should be able to at least get the plane off and back onto the runway without causing damage. The throttle, prop and mixture controls do the same thing in basically ever SEL airplane, and basic airspeed control and energy management is the same (pull pack, push forward, etc.). Sure, some have some particular tendencies that require some modification (sink rates, etc.), but if you can't figure that out in the air you probably need a little more instruction in general.
 
Legally, there's no reason you can't hop in and fly it. I've done this before with certain aircraft for which I already had a good knowledge or background of.

If you don't have knowledge, pull out the POH and start reading. You should do this even with a CFI, as CFIs don't know everything (despite what many of them believe). Sit in the cockpit and learn what each switch does.

Bigger question is insurance. Open pilot clauses usually have a minimum number of hours in type to qualify.

Know your limits. I'd hop in a 421 and fly it across the country (I have 0.5 hours 421 time, but 2000ish hours of twin time, roughly half in Twin Cessnas), but would not do the same in a 170 (1 hour tailwheel time, no endorsement, get confused when I start one engine without a second one to start).
 
What is the make and model of plane?
Depending on the answer, my answer to the question may vary.

Might as well ask, "Do you like food?"
Some foods I like, others I detest.
 
VFR it's all simple and easy. It's when you get into IFR, especially with advanced equipment, that dual really shows the value. It's not so much the flying as the equipment that really needs to be understood before heading off into IMC.
 
Jaybird180 said:
The owner, simply gives you the keys and says "have fun, just fill it with gas when you're done". He turns and walks away and says that he'll be out of town a couple days.
Click to expand...

I'd start to wonder if I'm being set up. ;)
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
I'll pull out the POH and go through the "General Info, Normal Procedures, Systems, and Emergency Procedures." Cockpit familiarization comes next with a basic flow pattern.

Then, I'd go fly.

The fact that people are too scared to go fly an airplane that they're entirely qualified for is rampant these days.

"Go fly a 172?!?! But I've only flown a 152!!!!!!"
Click to expand...

Personally I would never fault someone for being hesitant to jump into an airplane they have never flown without a checkout. There is something to be said for a person recognizing their own limitations and operating within those limitations. Some pilots seem like natural born flyers while others have to work a bit harder at it. Then there are people who are just not cut out to be pilots and those usually don't make through flight training.

That said I would do much like the others have said starting with the POH, cockpit familiarization and going on to some air work at a safe altitude to get the feel of the "old girl", thinking of Will Smith flying the alien ship in Independence Day. :)

Jean
 
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Cpt_Kirk said:
I'll pull out the POH and go through the "General Info, Normal Procedures, Systems, and Emergency Procedures." Cockpit familiarization comes next with a basic flow pattern.

Then, I'd go fly.

The fact that people are too scared to go fly an airplane that they're entirely qualified for is rampant these days.

"Go fly a 172?!?! But I've only flown a 152!!!!!!"
Click to expand...

I'll submit the mindset is beat into many pilots by the people they rent their airplanes from. Their motives may be legitimate, sometimes.

"You want to fly the 172? You've only flown the 152. You're gonna need a 10-hr checkout with an approved CFI. Sure I pocket $2000 from the transaction, but it's, uhhh... insurance! Yeah, insurance rules."
 
After a carefull read of the POH,and some reading of pireps on the plane. Go fly the airplane and have fun. Wouldn't fly it IFR untill I got a few hours in the aircraft.
 
frfly172 said:
After a carefull read of the POH,and some reading of pireps on the plane. Go fly the airplane and have fun. Wouldn't fly it IFR untill I got a few hours in the aircraft.
Click to expand...

Yup. I second the motion to have fun.
 
First, no chance this ever happens in real life, but...

Second, as others have said, assuming you've flown comparable aircraft, just read the POH and familiarize yourself with normal and emergency procedures and then go fly.

If it is a leap in performance or complexity or a significantly different type then yeah I'd still do all of the above but make the first flight with a suitable instructor or don't fly it.
 
ifly4fun said:
Seems this would be a fairly common scenario for single-seat airplanes.
Click to expand...

Certainly was the case when I pretty much had to figure out Cessna AgTrucks and AgHusky's on my own.

That said, I'd try to get checked out/transitioned to a new aircraft type by a knowledgable instructor if at all possible.
 
I might (depending on the airplane) but only if I carried a non-owned aircraft policy that I felt was sufficient to cover damage, just in case, since his insurer would probably deny coverage.
 
Although I agree with the "read POH", what are you going to get out of reading the POH? There are only certain areas that you need to read of the POH to be relevant.

Assuming the plane can be in CG with a single person, not sure what else one can get from the POH. Maybe pull the best climb and glide speeds.

Get on the runway, add power. When it starts to fly, that is the rotation speed.

Climb based on engine gauges, go do some slowflight to figure out your stall and approach speeds.

Spending a few hours reading the POH seems a bit much.
 
I did "self checkouts" in a Seneca II and CE-414 as well as a couple of A:SEL. I had significant time in the Seminole and CE-402 previously. Wouldn't recommend it for a low-time PP, though.
 
petrolero said:
First, no chance this ever happens in real life, but...
Click to expand...
It does happen and has happened to me. I still use it to this day as long as I fill it back up. I'm certainly not complaining.

Airplane's like being flown.

I sat in the airplane and read the POH just like I mentioned in my post. If I found something with which I was unfamiliar, I used the power of the Internet and figured it out.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Although I agree with the "read POH", what are you going to get out of reading the POH? There are only certain areas that you need to read of the POH to be relevant.

Assuming the plane can be in CG with a single person, not sure what else one can get from the POH. Maybe pull the best climb and glide speeds.
Click to expand...
Really dude? Let's see, unknown airplane and he doesn't qualify it...
Relevant speeds - for sure
CG - you mentioned that
Emergency proceedures - at least a basic run through.
At least a glance at electrical systems, landing gear, recommended RPM's, etc... for a regular 172, Grumman AA-5, probably could get away without that stuff, but say it was a Cessna 175 instead.

JoseCuervo said:
Get on the runway, add power. When it starts to fly, that is the rotation speed.

Climb based on engine gauges, go do some slowflight to figure out your stall and approach speeds.

Spending a few hours reading the POH seems a bit much.
Click to expand...
30 minutes might save your life, though, especially if it's a lower time pilot as the scenario we were given. I saw David posted above - I wonder how that 210 emergency would have gone if we hadn't gone over it on the checkout... a good outcome in something like that only comes by a good checkout or reading the POH beforehand.
 
petrolero said:
First, no chance this ever happens in real life, but...
Click to expand...

It does. Happened to me. Though, I wasn't private at the time.

Also, I have rented from one place where one checkout covered you in all the other planes even if you had 0 time in them. A check out in a 172 also allowed you to rent a PA28 and a 152 even if you never had time in either. Not the 182 or Arrow. But the 182 and Arrow checkouts were backwards compatible.
 
Well, for starters, how the gear indication system works. When the gear alarm will go off (some use flap, some use MP, some use throttle position).

How to disable automatic features you might not want (Arrow auto-gear, all autopilots).

Limitations. Especially, how much power can you use in normal cruise (it's not always the top of the green arc -- e.g. older 172s at low altitude). What's the DA limit for leaning? Cessnas seem to all be 3000 feet, but Pipers like 5000. Can you open the window in a high speed dive?

How much flap is used for normal takeoffs?

Can the aircraft be used IFR without required ATC notifications (Warriors above 4000 feet, for instance, won't climb at 500 FPM)?

How fast is the airplane? How much fuel do you need?

How do you start a hot engine? That one's real fun on injected Lycomings.

What are acceptable run-up readings? Is a 150 RPM difference acceptable for the mag check? What's the minimum static engine RPM on takeoff?

I don't see how you can do this safely without at least reading limitations, normal and emergency procedures, plus applicable performance tables. Probably systems as well. Now, you've covered most of the POH.

And not all airplanes are necessarily in CG with one in front and nothing else. 182s with full fuel are sometimes a problem with two up front. Besides, wouldn't you want to know where you were in the envelope?

I was allowed to self-checkout in a 152. There really is no way to fit me and an instructor or any other adult and full fuel (such as it is) in a 152. What I did was write a checklist (lots of POH study for that) and go up for stalls and slow flight.

My current club offered me the keys to a 177RG they just got on the line, based only on a question if I had a complex endorsement or not. It turns out, I have some 17 hours in another 177RG, but they didn't know that. I'll be flying it soon. The price is real good, comparing very nicely to a 172.
 
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petrolero said:
First, no chance this ever happens in real life, but...
Click to expand...
The old man bought a Beech B-19 (I had been flying a Cessna 120) and my first logbook entry for that is flying it home from where he bought it. I think he was with me, but I suspect that he had only gotten a demo in it before signing the paperwork...
 
RyanShort1 said:
Really dude? Let's see, unknown airplane and he doesn't qualify it...
Relevant speeds - for sure
CG - you mentioned that
Emergency proceedures - at least a basic run through.
At least a glance at electrical systems, landing gear, recommended RPM's, etc... for a regular 172, Grumman AA-5, probably could get away without that stuff, but say it was a Cessna 175 instead.


30 minutes might save your life, though, especially if it's a lower time pilot as the scenario we were given. I saw David posted above - I wonder how that 210 emergency would have gone if we hadn't gone over it on the checkout... a good outcome in something like that only comes by a good checkout or reading the POH beforehand.
Click to expand...


I guess I was also assuming a good checklist was in the seat pocket. The checklist should have all the important parts extracted from the POH and put in a simple format.

I agree that there is some "familiarzation" on the POH, but "reading" seems a bit much.

Here is a link to a Grumman Cheetah POH:
https://www.pilotundflugzeug.de/img/ads/lisa/material/POH_090424.pdf

It is 190 pages long. It discusses issues like flying under the influence of alcohol. The warranty on the 1977 plane...


As the owner of all sorts of equipment and trucks, you learn what you need to tell somebody about a machine, and, what machines are easy to just flip someone the keys.

If it is a C-175, you should probably not flip the keys. But, a lot of the generic Cessna, Pipers, Beech's, etc. are fine.

There used to be a poster here by the name of DeletedPOA20, or something similar, who used to advocate some sort of Type Rating on every new plane someone flew. A pilot of a Warrior would need an instructor to be competent flying an Archer or a Cherokee, etc....

Just opposite ends of the spectrum...
 
MAKG1 said:
What's the DA limit for leaning? Cessnas seem to all be 3000 feet, but Pipers like 5000.
Click to expand...

On the Cessna leaning above 3000ft only applies to the climb. Below 3000 you can and should lean when operating at or below 75% power. 5000 in the piper is not a limit either. The Archer POH that I have says that leaning is "pilot's discretion" below 5000 and at 75% power or less.
 
If you're somewhat proficient in the type I'd say no problem.

I learned in a Warrior, then rented 172's. While building my airplane I rented the least expensive airplanes I could find and those were 152's. Probably have a hundred or more hours in them.

Fast forward, RV-7A is done and flying and I had probably 500 hours in it. A good friend added me to his 150 insurance so his plane would get flown a little more often. Once the insurance was in place, he said "take it for a spin." How hard could it be??, the 150 has to be about the easiest airplane in the world to fly. I hesitated and said, "Why don't you come along." I'm so glad I did. I couldn't believe how different it was after getting so used to the RV. I wouldn't have died or anything but I'm sure I would have needed to go around a few times before landing. I was pretty embarrassed. Muscle memory is a real thing.
 
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boom3 said:
If you're somewhat proficient in the type I'd say no problem.

I learned in a Warrior, then rented 172's. While building my airplane I rented the least expensive airplanes I could find and those were 152's. Probably have a hundred or more hours in them.

Fast forward, RV-7A is done and flying and I had probably 500 hours in it. A good friend added me to his 150 insurance so his plane would get flown a little more often. Once the insurance was in place, he said "take it for a spin." How hard could it be??, the 150 has to be about the easiest airplane in the world to fly. I hesitated and said, "Why don't you come along." I'm so glad I did. I couldn't believe how different it was after getting so used to the RV. I wouldn't have died or anything but I'm sure I would have needed to go around a few times before landing. I was pretty embarrassed. Muscle memory is a real thing.
Click to expand...
A 150 hardly goes fast enough to kill you.
 
How different a type? I have lots of time in 172 and 182 aircraft and I fly a PA28-236 so I think if it were a PA28-181 or 161 it would not be too difficult. With a 180 or 160 and the different wing, perhaps a bit more concern. If it were an SR20, I would not fly it.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Hypothetical question but may have some applicability

You, a low-mid time PP arrive at the airport and an opportunity arises for your to fly a new-to-you type but there is no one to go with you. The owner, simply gives you the keys and says "have fun, just fill it with gas when you're done". He turns and walks away and says that he'll be out of town a couple days.

What do you do to ensure you return the aircraft back to your friend? You know no-one with experience in type except the owner and there are no CFIs to be found.

The aircraft is category/class legal for you to fly. You're 90 day current for day/night VFR carrying passengers and have a current medical.
Click to expand...


Read the POH, fly the plane, take it easy.

Did it a few times, in AG planes most times your first flight is solo too.
 
PilotRPI said:
C172 to a C150 or Cherokee 140, probably not much of an issue. C172 to an RV7, may want a little dual first.
Click to expand...

Any part 23 --> Van's aircraft first timer would be advised to have dual first. Could be a rude awakening to climb aboard an RV and punch the throttle only to experience the P-factor and find that punching the rudder has absolutely ZERO effect (since the steering wheels are free castoring --- no connection to the rudder).
And an RV could have any imaginable arrangement of panel --- totally foreign to Part 23 aircraft.
 
I've checked myself out in half the types I've flown. Granted, I didn't feel comfortable doing this until I had about 350hrs.

Get familiar with the POH, including speeds, weight and balance, and do a little bit of Internet searching on how they fly and any quirks. I flew a C-170 across 3/4 of the country recently with 0 time in type and did just that. Did just what I said, then took it up for 45min or so for some slow flight, stalls, and pattern work before I started the first leg.

Just familiarize yourself with the POH, read up online, take it slow at first, and you'll be fine.
 
I've flown 40+ types now and have done the whole jump in the new plane deal. The trickiest was an RV-3 that wouldn't fly straight for even one second due to a rigging issue after a ground loop. That was pretty interesting as you really couldn't take your hand off the stick for anything or she'd flip upside down. RV's in general are great airplanes as are many other types, but a specific airplane can have a quirk, too.
 
oldShar said:
Any part 23 --> Van's aircraft first timer would be advised to have dual first. Could be a rude awakening to climb aboard an RV and punch the throttle only to experience the P-factor and find that punching the rudder has absolutely ZERO effect (since the steering wheels are free castoring --- no connection to the rudder).
And an RV could have any imaginable arrangement of panel --- totally foreign to Part 23 aircraft.
Click to expand...
Not that foreign. At one time the "standard" panel configuration was anything but standard and you might find any instrument anywhere. I flew a 60's vintage Mooney like that. In the clouds.

Zero rudder effect? Really? I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary in terms of takeoff in an RV6A or RV12 when compared to any other aircraft with a castering nosewheel or, for that matter, a tailwheel. One expects to need to have enough speed in those to have the airflow for the rudder to become effective.
 
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