Power On Stall

Sport Pilot

Sport Pilot

Pre-takeoff checklist
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To begin the power-on stall, you set flaps as necessary and increase to FULL throttle. But after stall, you increase to FULL throttle. How does one increase full throttle when throttle is pushed in already?
 
My instructor has me reduce power back to close to idle...wait for plane to slow to right around 60 knots, then full power and pitch up. Once you hit that stall buffet, then stall, you let the nose drop and then you’ll gradually gain airspeed as your angle of attack decreases. We don’t use flaps for a power on stall because we are simulating a take off stall.

I am talking about a C172.


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You don't. You lower the nose and then retract the throttle. I don't use flaps in my Cherokee either for the power on stall.
 
Ok. The power on Stall for the Jabiru (10 degrees) and Evektor (15 degrees) your using flaps for take off. Full power.

So the config is full power and lowest degree of flaps to takeoff. So this is the config setup for the power on stall.

Once stalled, alleviate back pressure and nose drops. Add full power, retract flaps, and ease up nose.
 
Maybe I am confusing the power on stall config with power off.

Student...
 
A power on stall is a stall in the takeoff configuration. Some aircraft use partial flaps for takeoff.
 
I was never taught to reduce power when the stall happens for a departure stall. Full power at Vr, pitch up, stall, pitch down, recover.
 
The power on stall is trickier than the power off. I want to use ailerons but that created a...situation.

Step on the wing and keep ball centered on a power on stall.

Leave ailerons out of the equation.
 
This video might be helpful.

Of interest to me was the discussion about visual reference out the side windscreen. That was a technique not emphasized by my instructors.

 
Sport Pilot said:
To begin the power-on stall, you set flaps as necessary and increase to FULL throttle. But after stall, you increase to FULL throttle. How does one increase full throttle when throttle is pushed in already?
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The power-full in the recovery of a power-on stall maneuver is mostly a confirmation that you have full power. It is also to create a learned response if it really happens.

Context: The power on stall is a simulation of a stall which takes place during climb out after takeoff. In many cases, if something like that actually happens, it is often going to be because the throttle creeped back. So full power even though you supposedly had full power to begin with makes a lot of sense.
 
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Better way to put it is landing or departure stall and also a enroute stall.

Departure stall in a small piston like 172

Power back, put the plane on the takeoff configuration, when you get to your lift off/rotation speed, power up and pitch up, first indication of a stall, decrease the AOA, keep the power in, once you have good speed/AOA pitch for VY/VX get back to starting altitude, then back to cruise settings. And remember if one wing drops, don't use ailerons, just step on the high wing.

Ofcourse you should also do one to a full break, just not for the dumbed down new checkrides.
 
James331 said:
Better way to put it is landing or departure stall and also a enroute stall.
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It is. Unfortunately, way too many CFIs teach it as something you do because the FAA is going to test you on it rather than as the simulation of an event you need to recognize and, if it goes to far, know how to recover from.
 
jordane93 said:
A power on stall is a stall in the takeoff configuration. Some aircraft use partial flaps for takeoff.
Click to expand...

That's the way I was trained and have always demonstrated on a check ride. Lower the nose to break the stall to recover. No throttle change.
 
Armchair flying got me through these maneuvers. Make up a checklist, including your pre-maneuver flow, and practice the heck out of it in an imaginary airplane. If people look at you funny, tell em you're a pilot!
 
Sport Pilot said:
To begin the power-on stall, you set flaps as necessary and increase to FULL throttle. But after stall, you increase to FULL throttle. How does one increase full throttle when throttle is pushed in already?
Click to expand...

You don't, unless the stall has developed before you applied full throttle. How can this happen? Well, if you apply power toooooo gradually while applying back pressure, to simulate a dramatic rotation during takeoff, you may stall prior to reaching full throttle. If that's the case, then you recover by applying full power and letting the nose drop. But if you are already at full throttle when the stall develops, then you just drop your nose a bit and fly away.

I am equally troubled by the power-on stall recovery that specifies full throttle, as you are. The point of the exercise is to train us for departure stalls, right? In the small airplanes most of us fly, departure means full power. In an actual departure stall situation, you are already at full-throttle!

The only realistic scenario I can think of where you may enter a departure stall while still applying throttle is during a soft-field takeoff. In this scenario, the airplane is in a nose-high attitude before you begin to apply power and it may stall before full-throttle if you don't get a tail strike fist.

Another, more realistic scenario, where you may have an actual power-on stall is when you are in a partial-power climb. For example, you are cruising in an 172P at 2200 RPM and you want to gain 200-300 feet. You raise the nose, and trade that airspeed for altitude. Only you raise the nose a bit too much and you stall. That's when full-throttle becomes necessary.

Mind you, I am at 10 hours past my checkride and my comments above are meant to echo your question, not to answer it.
 
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Sport Pilot said:
To begin the power-on stall, you set flaps as necessary and increase to FULL throttle. But after stall, you increase to FULL throttle. How does one increase full throttle when throttle is pushed in already?
Click to expand...

Think you are confusing two different stalls. Power on simulates a take-off. You start by slowing to just above your rotation speed and then apply full throttle and allow the nose to come up and get either to a buffet, stall horn or a full break. You recover by dropping the nose. The engine is full throttle throughout the maneuver, you're recovering by dropping the nose only. A power off stall simulates your approach, so you give full throttle there to recover from the stall, in addition to using pitch.
 
Hang 4 said:
Think you are confusing two different stalls. Power on simulates a take-off. You start by slowing to just above your rotation speed and then apply full throttle and allow the nose to come up and get either to a buffet, stall horn or a full break. You recover by dropping the nose. The engine is full throttle throughout the maneuver, you're recovering by dropping the nose only. A power off stall simulates your approach, so you give full throttle there to recover from the stall, in addition to using pitch.
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There is no confusion here. Full-power is a necessary (though maybe trivial) part of the power-on stall recovery. Per the Airplane Flying Handbook, page 4-10:

The pilot should recover from the stall by immediately reducing the AOA and applying as much nose-down control input as required to eliminate the stall warning, level the wings with ailerons, coordinate with rudder, and smoothly advance the power as needed. Since the throttle is already at the climb power setting, this step may simply mean confirming the proper power setting. ​
 
GreatLakesFlying said:
There is no confusion here. Full-power is a necessary (though maybe trivial) part of the power-on stall recovery. Per the Airplane Flying Handbook, page 4-10:

The pilot should recover from the stall by immediately reducing the AOA and applying as much nose-down control input as required to eliminate the stall warning, level the wings with ailerons, coordinate with rudder, and smoothly advance the power as needed. Since the throttle is already at the climb power setting, this step may simply mean confirming the proper power setting. ​
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I was saying the OP sounds confused. Agree with the wording here. Just don't see a scenario where you don't have hand on the throttle throughout. Perhaps some folks back off when the nose drops and that's why the extra step?
 
Sport Pilot said:
Ok. So when I read full power after stall (power-on), it is just reminding me to double check that most important element for recovery...
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That's my reading, as well. Except for the scenario I described earlier: you are cruising in a 172P at 2200 RPM and you want to gain 200-300 feet. You raise the nose, and trade that airspeed for altitude. Only you raise the nose a bit too much and you stall. That's when full-throttle becomes necessary.

In chapter 4, the AFH addresses four separate possibilities in which a power-on stall may develop. At least two of them (highlighted below) may occur at partial power.

Power-on stall recoveries are practiced from straight climbs and climbing turns (15° to 20° bank) to help the pilot recognize the potential for an accidental stall during takeoff, go around, climb, or when trying to clear an obstacle.
​
As I told the OP in my earlier response, I am at 10 hours past my checkride and my comments above are meant to echo his question, not to answer it :)
 
Sport Pilot said:
To begin the power-on stall, you set flaps as necessary and increase to FULL throttle. But after stall, you increase to FULL throttle. How does one increase full throttle when throttle is pushed in already?
Click to expand...

You are not required to use full throttle during the stall set-up. You must use at least 65% power. Recovery involves advancing the throttle to full, or verifying that it's full already.
 
Sport Pilot said:
that most important element for recovery
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What causes a stall? Exceeding the critical Angle of Attack....

So what would be the most important element of recovery? Power, or reduction of Angle of Attack? (hint: it isn't the former)

Once the AoA is reduced and the stall is recovered from, power is added to maintain altitude.

Review of Chapter 4 (specifically page 4-7 and 4-8) of the AFM might be worth your time....

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...iation/airplane_handbook/media/06_afh_ch4.pdf
 
Sport Pilot said:
Ok. So when I read full power after stall (power-on), it is just reminding me to double check that most important element for recovery...
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Well some aircraft have max sustained power, so the lower you're climbing out with might not be full power, i.e. in my 185 I can only use full power for 5min, normally after I'm 400 and clear obstacles I'll reduce power, or if I have a good deal of space I'll take off with a fingers width less prop.
 
Sport Pilot said:
Ok. So when I read full power after stall (power-on), it is just reminding me to double check that most important element for recovery...
Click to expand...

Its also building through law of primacy, good habits. Later on in life when you fly something more complex most of the time you reduce to climb power at 1000'.

So the imaginary scenario there is you just got checked out in the club's Piper Arrow, you take your old lady out for a spin, do your 1000' climb power reduction and then remember in your excitement to take her that you left your Sectional chart in the backseat, reach behind you to get it, takes a little while longer than you thought, trim wasn't set properly, airspeed starts to taper off, you hear the stall horn, turn around, nose over and FULL THROTTLE.

Its not just an exercise to get your license. :)
 
Sport Pilot said:
Ok. So when I read full power after stall (power-on), it is just reminding me to double check that most important element for recovery...
Click to expand...
Close. It's one of the two most important elements for recovery.

Actually, I'm wrong. All the steps of the recovery are essential.

  1. Attitude = breaking the stall.
  2. Power = minimizing any loss of altitude and continuing the climb.
  3. Cleaning up the airplane = continuing the climb.
  4. Maintaining coordination with rudder throughout = preventing a spin.
 
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Hang 4 said:
I was saying the OP sounds confused. Agree with the wording here. Just don't see a scenario where you don't have hand on the throttle throughout. Perhaps some folks back off when the nose drops and that's why the extra step?
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Point is, it's not an "extra" step. It is an essential part of the recovery, for both the ACS maneuver and the real world event it simulates.
 
Agree with many of the above posts.

The “full power” on takeoff/departure stall recovery is a “verify” or “confirm” step.

In a real life situation, the throttle may have crept back, or the carb heat was inadvertently still on, or the mixture was not full rich (or as appropriate), or the prop control wasn’t at max rpm. Any of these, combined with holding a normal climb attitude, may have contributed to the stall situation in the first place.

Hence, “balls to the wall” is usually nearly simultaneous with pitch reduction to recover from a takeoff/departure stall.
 
jordane93 said:
A power on stall is a stall in the takeoff configuration. Some aircraft use partial flaps for takeoff.
Click to expand...

Yup. Straight ahead and a 10-20* bank is how I teach it, full power after slowing to lift off speed. If flaps required for takeoff I use that. You can also set it up like a short takeoff using flaps 10* in a 172 for instance.

GreatLakesFlying said:
There is no confusion here. Full-power is a necessary (though maybe trivial) part of the power-on stall recovery. Per the Airplane Flying Handbook, page 4-10:

The pilot should recover from the stall by immediately reducing the AOA and applying as much nose-down control input as required to eliminate the stall warning, level the wings with ailerons, coordinate with rudder, and smoothly advance the power as needed. Since the throttle is already at the climb power setting, this step may simply mean confirming the proper power setting. ​
Click to expand...

Yup, confirming you're at full power.

I use this technique in the flight school's 172s, PA28-140', and 152. Always have actually.
 
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