POTUS TFR-busted

SCCutler said:
monitor guard. You should, anyway.
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If you have a Garmin or Apollo SL30 or SL40 as one of your radios, this is pretty easy. It has an easily configured monitor status that let's you use all your radios just as you normally do and the radio always monitors whatever you program into it. It's as if you have an additional receive only radio.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
So maybe I should change my signature line to say "Goon and petty tyrant extraordinaire"?? :D
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Aww... don't sell yourself short with "petty"! :tongue:

What's that line from Caddyshack?

Judge: I'm no slouch myself, you know
Ty: Don't sell yourself short, judge, you're a TREMENDOUS slouch!

Seriously - I've heard all sorts of horror stories about vindictive FAA types, and I'm sure they exist, but I've yet to meet one. I have met a couple that shouldn't be allowed near airplanes, but they're not mean or nasty, just not "all the way there".
 
jesse said:
Are there any cases where someone has busted a TFR while operating under a valid IFR clearance? If so - was the pilot free of any blame? It's been my understanding that if you get cleared there it won't be your fault.
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The only one of which I am aware involved an inflight electrical failure in the weather, and the pilot was not only exonerated, but praised by the FAA for resolving the situation safely. But I don't think that's what you're talking about.
 
ajstoner21 said:
Well, then. How about that.... I wish these "Administrator v. Walkup" type things were made more open. Where do you guys find these? (Maybe I just never tried to look)
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http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/

I have actually always had the "Who is PIC" convo with a CFI (after I got my private certificate)
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Any time there are two rated pilots at control stations (not just with a CFI), there should be clear establishment of roles and responsibilities before the starter is engaged.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I see the TFR's for once the POTUS arrives at a destination all the time. But there is a moving TFR that surrounds AF-1, right? I don't think I've ever seen one of those listed in a briefing on DUAT.

What am I missing?
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Nothing. ATC protects the airspace around AF1 while it's in flight. No NOTAM published (my guess is for security reasons -- while there's no hiding where the Pres will be, there's no need to publish his flight route).
 
Skip Miller said:
Get a briefing from FSS first. As the briefing is recorded on tape, you then have proof that you did your part and that the system failed you.
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Or log onto Duats - I've seen ALOT of NOTAMS and TFRs in particular that showed up in Duats but the briefer never mentioned.
 
steingar said:
Can one always monitor guard when flying IFR if equipped with two radios?
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Not "always" but I would say 98% of the time.

Here's what I do:

(note that all 3 of our club airplanes now have dual flip-flop radios, which certainly helps)

Pre-flight: Audio panel set to Com2 Tx + Rx
Com1: Tower <-> Departure
Com2: ATIS <-> Clearance, then Clearance <-> Ground, then Ground <-> Guard

So, I'll pick up the ATIS, clearance, and talk to Ground on Com2, with tower and departure ready to go on Com1, as given by Clearance. When I pull up to the hold short line, I switch the audio panel to transmit on Com1 and monitor both Com1 and Com2, and flip Guard into the active on Com2.

Flight: Audio panel set to Com1 Tx, Com1 & Com2 Rx

Com1: Tower, then Departure, then flipping in each active frequency along the way as they're assigned.
Com2: Guard <-> ATIS/AWOS/FSS

So, in flight I'm constantly monitoring guard unless I'm picking up ATIS/AWOS (which takes about a minute) or need to talk to FSS (which is rare). The only time I turn it off is if I pick up a loud ELT signal that interferes with using Com1.

So... Again, 98% of the time you can monitor guard, whether you're IFR or VFR. Most of what you hear on there is the occasional mis-transmission of an airliner who's got the wrong radio selected, or ATC facilities attempting to contact airliners or other IFR aircraft after they've accidentally let them fly outside the range of a transmitter without a frequency change.

Or, if the president is out and about, repeated warnings to the people who are about to fly into the TFR.
 
Skip Miller said:
Get a briefing from FSS first. As the briefing is recorded on tape, you then have proof that you did your part and that the system failed you.

-Skip
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If you were really worried, you could also log into Duats and get a list of NOTAMS/TFRs that way. You could do your own "self brief" that way and make sure what you find, and the FSS briefer says match up.

EDIT: Sorry to repeat Fearless Tower - I didn't read far enough to see you already mentioned this.
 
Steve Foley said:
Not all FAA employees are goons and tyrants, but the agency sees to attract more than their fair share. If the shoe fits ...
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That really depends upon your credibility with FSDO. If they see you as a shmuck, every one there will look like a tyrant.
 
The real answer is all to simple,,,, don't bust the TFR, It's way too easy to know where the president is traveling and stay away.
 
Ron Levy said:
Nothing. ATC protects the airspace around AF1 while it's in flight. No NOTAM published (my guess is for security reasons -- while there's no hiding where the Pres will be, there's no need to publish his flight route).
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Is ATC going to make an announcement on 123.0 (CTAF for ONZ)? Or should I listen to 121.5 instead of CTAF? (I have only one radio)

Fearless Tower said:
Or log onto Duats - I've seen ALOT of NOTAMS and TFRs in particular that showed up in Duats but the briefer never mentioned.
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I see nothing in DUAT today except for the TFR around KSAW. Well, I see a lot of stuff about Toronto that is always there for no reason that is apparant to me... but nothing about what happens between Washington and KSAW. (I assume he is leaving from Washington, but I don't really know, for all I know he is in Egypt at the moment.)

Tom-D said:
The real answer is all to simple,,,, don't bust the TFR, It's way too easy to know where the president is traveling and stay away.
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Great idea. I'm trying to figure out how to do that. I have no idea what route he will be taking to get to the U.P today. (Or to Chicago when he goes). Does he cut across Canada, or stay on the U.S side (Right over ONZ)?
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
OK, So, I guess I'm a little slow...

So here's the stupid questions;

I see the TFR's for once the POTUS arrives at a destination all the time. But there is a moving TFR that surrounds AF-1, right? I don't think I've ever seen one of those listed in a briefing on DUAT.

What am I missing?

If he flies to Marquette this weekend, likely he will go right over Detroit (assuming they don't short cut through Canadian air space). How do I know when to not go out and pound out some landings?
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Wrong. There is no moving TFR for AF1.

As Ron said, ATC can keep other aircraft away. En route, AF1 is in Class A airspace. The airspace for the arrival/departure is protected by the 30 nm TFR. Anyone who in those airspaces who is not talking to ATC or is not complying with ATC instructions will likely get a close-up view of a fighter.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Is ATC going to make an announcement on 123.0 (CTAF for ONZ)?
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No. The USAF broadcasts its warnings only on Guard.

Or should I listen to 121.5 instead of CTAF? (I have only one radio)
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If you're within the airport traffic area, then you should be on CTAF. If you have but one radio, I'd recommend being on Guard whenever you don't have reason to be somewhere else (like CTAF near the airport, ATC for flight following en route, FSS for weather updates, etc). If you've done your preflight planning properly, and stay out of the published TFR's at the published times, you should be fine with such a plan.

I see nothing in DUAT today except for the TFR around KSAW. Well, I see a lot of stuff about Toronto that is always there for no reason that is apparant to me... but nothing about what happens between Washington and KSAW.
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The do not issue nor do they publicly release AF1's planned flight paths. But it doesn't matter, because there's no specific rule about staying away from AF1 in flight. Basically, if it comes down to them vs no-radio VFR traffic, they'll stay away from you. But that's why they have the 10/30 TFR's around their destination -- once they start down, they'll pretty much stay inside that mini-B-space volume, and you shouldn't be in there with them other than under ATC control.
 
Now I see what I didn't understand. I was under the assumption that some distance around AF1 down to the ground was a moving TFR - dunno where I got that idea.

I ain't go'n near the published TFR (now or at a later date) so I am going to stop worrying.

Thanks again.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I was under the assumption that some distance around AF1 down to the ground was a moving TFR - dunno where I got that idea.
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Some big place out there has to be propagating this myth because I've had 2 instructors tell me this in 2 completely separate places (one in North florida, one in south)
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Now I see what I didn't understand. I was under the assumption that some distance around AF1 down to the ground was a moving TFR - dunno where I got that idea.

I ain't go'n near the published TFR (now or at a later date) so I am going to stop worrying.

Thanks again.
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To a certain extent, ATC can clear the airspace around AF1, because mainly it departs Class B (Andrews), climbs into "A", then descends through a TFR.

If ATC has instructions not to let other aircraft within 10 miles of AF1, they can do that without a TFR simply by not clearing other aircraft into the space. Yes, you could cruise along at 17,500' right underneath VFR if you like, but that's still 4ish miles of vertical separation, the hard way (you can descend 4 miles a lot faster than you can climb it!)
 
Six pages about useless security regulations! I do have to thank Ron and others who have jumped in with legal wisdom and interpretation. I just have to take a step back and remember how useless the security regulations are to begin with.
 
JeffDG said:
To a certain extent, ATC can clear the airspace around AF1, because mainly it departs Class B (Andrews), climbs into "A", then descends through a TFR.

If ATC has instructions not to let other aircraft within 10 miles of AF1, they can do that without a TFR simply by not clearing other aircraft into the space. Yes, you could cruise along at 17,500' right underneath VFR if you like, but that's still 4ish miles of vertical separation, the hard way (you can descend 4 miles a lot faster than you can climb it!)
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but at the same time if they are not in B airspace VFR traffic don't really have to do anything atc tells them, and as far as VFR goes if AF1 finds themselves in G or E, some aircraft don't even have to be with ATC

So yeah they can clear it as much as possible but only as much as airspace will allow them which in A and B they can clear it for sure but if for some reason AF1 finds itself in C D or E then it's pretty much voluntary sorta
 
elmetal said:
but at the same time if they are not in B airspace VFR traffic don't really have to do anything atc tells them, and as far as VFR goes if AF1 finds themselves in G or E, some aircraft don't even have to be with ATC

So yeah they can clear it as much as possible but only as much as airspace will allow them which in A and B they can clear it for sure but if for some reason AF1 finds itself in C D or E then it's pretty much voluntary sorta
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Alright...so AF1 takes off from Andrews. That's in the middle of the SFRA and Class Bravo around DC.

By the time they get out of the Bravo they have a short period in Class E on climb out.

Then they climb into the Class A...up there, ATC again has full control.

On descent, they descend out of A into their TFR which by the time they're on approach is active and everyone's clearing out of their way.

The only "free" airspace they encounter is the Class E over top of the DC Bravo, and even there, they're covered by SFRA rules...the FRZ goes up to the base of Class A.
 
elmetal said:
but at the same time if they are not in B airspace VFR traffic don't really have to do anything atc tells them, and as far as VFR goes if AF1 finds themselves in G or E, some aircraft don't even have to be with ATC

So yeah they can clear it as much as possible but only as much as airspace will allow them which in A and B they can clear it for sure but if for some reason AF1 finds itself in C D or E then it's pretty much voluntary sorta
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... Except for that whole TFR thing which is NOT "voluntary."
 
JeffDG said:
Alright...so AF1 takes off from Andrews. That's in the middle of the SFRA and Class Bravo around DC.

By the time they get out of the Bravo they have a short period in Class E on climb out.

Then they climb into the Class A...up there, ATC again has full control.

On descent, they descend out of A into their TFR which by the time they're on approach is active and everyone's clearing out of their way.

The only "free" airspace they encounter is the Class E over top of the DC Bravo, and even there, they're covered by SFRA rules...the FRZ goes up to the base of Class A.
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Yeah I know, which is why I said "but if for some reason AF1 finds itself in C D or E then it's pretty much voluntary sorta"

so yeah they can be cleared 99% of the time, but if they have to land elsewhere while enroute, they can't change the TFR on the fly and expect people to comply immediately.
 
JeffDG said:
Wanna bet?
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Let's say he's scheduled to be in Miami.

I go ahead and fly out and around F45 (Uncontrolled, far from the miami TFR)

I'm just hanging out flying around F45 NORDO in say a piper cub or what have you.

I did all my duties preflight, so while enroute they change destination to PBI, I am now in their popup TFR that they change WHILE I'm flying

There's no way I'll go down without a fight.
 
elmetal said:
Yeah I know, which is why I said "but if for some reason AF1 finds itself in C D or E then it's pretty much voluntary sorta"
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When AF1 flies, they know everything around them whether it's squawking or not. You really don't have to worry about them running into you. And even if you do bust the TFR while they're in the air, they will maneuver to avoid you (while the F-16's handle the rest of the matter).
 
JeffDG said:
Wanna bet?
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Yes, I'll bet. There's just no way to tell everyone (even the VFR NORDO traffic) about TFR changes on the fly. However, AF1 has enough systems and support that you simply cannot get close to them in flight. But if they do change the TFR while you're in the air, they can't bust you for that if you familiarized yourself with all available information before takeoff and were using all available resources in flight (not many, to be honest, if you're NORDO) to stay abreast of things.
 
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JeffDG said:
Alright...so AF1 takes off from Andrews. That's in the middle of the SFRA and Class Bravo around DC.

By the time they get out of the Bravo they have a short period in Class E on climb out.

Then they climb into the Class A...up there, ATC again has full control.

On descent, they descend out of A into their TFR which by the time they're on approach is active and everyone's clearing out of their way.

The only "free" airspace they encounter is the Class E over top of the DC Bravo, and even there, they're covered by SFRA rules...the FRZ goes up to the base of Class A.
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Right - SFRA/FRZ go to FL180. So they stay in controlled airspace (SFRA or POTUS TFR) at all times on the way up or down.

The only time there's a "moving" TFR is when he's flying by helo or other "local" flights - and they publish effective times of those. When he goes to Camp David they don't publish a TFR - but they do sanitize the airspace on the way out and back with escort aircraft
 
JeffDG said:
On descent, they descend out of A into their TFR which by the time they're on approach is active and everyone's clearing out of their way.
.
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I am not a 747 pilot. I don't know their descent profile. Are you sure that AF1 would be in the typical 30 nm radius TFR when coming out of FL180?

I'm purely guessing the descent rate might be 2,000 fpm. Someone who knows can correct me. Speed would be likely not much above 250 kts from FL180 to 10,000 (say maybe 280 or so tops) and not more than 250 below 10k, slowing to approach speeds when joining.

My initial guess is that AF1 would descend through FL180 farther out than the 30 nm TFR if the TFR is centered on the arrival airport.
 
TMetzinger said:
The only time there's a "moving" TFR is when he's flying by helo or other "local" flights - and they publish effective times of those. When he goes to Camp David they don't publish a TFR - but they do sanitize the airspace on the way out and back with escort aircraft
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I thought there was a moving TFR if he traveled any sort of significant distance by ground transport... say a campaign bus or something like that.
 
skidoo said:
How does the FAA get around constitutional protections?
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They aren't. You are mis-understanding the law involved.

Your ability to legally fly a plane is a regulated privilege. The FAA seeking to revoke that privilege is not a criminal matter (you wont go to jail over it, 5th and 6th amendments not applicable) and its not a lawsuit, so the right to trial by jury in matters pertaining to values over $20 dont apply either.

And as others have said, since this isnt a CRIMINAL prosecution, the rule of evidence is not "beyond a reasonable doubt" but the lower civil standard "a preponderance of evidence"

If you want to fly a plane legally and possess an airman's certificate, you do it by the administrative rules set out by the governing body. You want to play hardball, bring your own KY.. cause the govt wont provide it.
 
skidoo said:
How does the FAA get around constitutional protections?
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Because Congress and the Supreme Court lets them. In the interest of expediency, they decided long ago to allow the executive branch to take on quasi-legislative and quasi-judicial roles. The Constitution does not spell out all the details of what constitutes due process of law, so my non-attorney guess is that's why it can be different depending on whether it's a criminal or administrative case.

Administrative cases can be appealed to the regular appeals courts, but the latter do not often overturn them.
 
If you are flying IFR, you should be talking to ATC.. ATC should know about the TFR. If ATC vectors you into a bust, thats on them, and its on tape.
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Can someone please tell me how to "quote" and include the "author" of the prior post? ....thanks!
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There is a general defense called 'reliance' in which an airman may claim that he relied upon others for information.

In Dress, a CFI and student penetrated P-40 near Camp David in the time frame immediately after 9/11. The NTSB reversed the FAA's proposed 100 day suspension based on a faulty briefing by FSS.

In Admin. v. Dress (SERVED: October 13, 2004
NTSB Order No. EA-5115, page 7) the NTSB said:
In any event, if, as indicated in this case by the weight of the evidence, the briefer did not provide the NOTAM information, it is inappropriate to hold respondent responsible for violating its prohibition. See Graves and Davis, 3 NTSB 3900, 3903 (1981) (no violation when the respondent’s inadvertent entry into restricted area resulted from reliance on erroneous information). Pilots are not held to a standard of strict liability. Administrator v. Rolund, Order Denying Reconsideration, NTSB Order No. EA-4123 at 5 (1994), citing Administrator v. Frohmuth and Dworak, NTSB Order No. EA-3816 (1993).

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Full text of NTSB cases since mid 1992 can be found here:
http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/Query.ASP
 
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