Position Reports

poadeleted21

poadeleted21

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Aug 18, 2011
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Is it kosher to use instrument approach fixes and "lingo" on the CTAF at uncontrolled airports on severe VFR days when you're out just flying approaches, alone, for the heck of it?

For instance "Podunk Airport, Piper 1234A 2.36 miles from the Whatever NDB, Flying NDB RW33 Approach,Podunk Airport"?
 
bartmc said:
Is it kosher to use instrument approach fixes and "lingo" on the CTAF at uncontrolled airports on severe VFR days when you're out just flying approaches, alone, for the heck of it?

For instance "Podunk Airport, Piper 1234A 2.36 miles from the Whatever NDB, Flying NDB RW33 Approach,Podunk Airport"?
Click to expand...

Not many VFR only pilots would know where those places are. Heck, I am instrument rated and wouldn't know what the fixes are around the several airports I fly out of.

Bearing/distance from the airport is more useful.
 
It really irks me when people do that. I usually retort with "How far away are you?"
 
bartmc said:
Is it kosher to use instrument approach fixes and "lingo" on the CTAF at uncontrolled airports on severe VFR days when you're out just flying approaches, alone, for the heck of it?

For instance "Podunk Airport, Piper 1234A 2.36 miles from the Whatever NDB, Flying NDB RW33 Approach,Podunk Airport"?
Click to expand...

You are a no-go at this station, private!

I'd much prefer "Podunk traffic, Bugsmasher 123AB on a 10 mile final for runway 15, Podunk."
 
I will often say "Oakland-Troy traffic, Cardinal 8JT is 7 west on the RNAV 9, planning straight in rwy 9 (or planning downwind entry, 27), Oakland-Troy." I don't think it hurts to identify the approach you're flying for the benefit of those who are familiar with it, but I always include my position relative to the field and what I intend to do once I'm in the pattern.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Not many VFR only pilots would know where those places are. Heck, I am instrument rated and wouldn't know what the fixes are around the several airports I fly out of.

Bearing/distance from the airport is more useful.
Click to expand...

+1 on that. I do that when I'm on a practice IR approach not with ATC
 
bartmc said:
Is it kosher to use instrument approach fixes and "lingo" on the CTAF at uncontrolled airports on severe VFR days when you're out just flying approaches, alone, for the heck of it?

For instance "Podunk Airport, Piper 1234A 2.36 miles from the Whatever NDB, Flying NDB RW33 Approach,Podunk Airport"?
Click to expand...
What Greg said. Try to think in terms of a non-IR pilot's frame of reference. He probably knows where 5 miles out on final for 23 is but won't have a clue where to find the POSEY intersection, nor will he likely know what a procedure turn is. And since you're typically well above pattern altitude until passing the FAF inbound I wouldn't bother calling until you're on final headed for the airport unless you hear transitioning aircraft in your vicinity and altitude.
 
And some of us won't even hear you.


Greg Bockelman said:
Not many VFR only pilots would know where those places are. Heck, I am instrument rated and wouldn't know what the fixes are around the several airports I fly out of.

Bearing/distance from the airport is more useful.
Click to expand...
 
DavidWhite said:
It really irks me when people do that. I usually retort with "How far away are you?"
Click to expand...

The same inquiry I posed to the inspiration of this thread. He replied to me with a dissertation on where the NDB was located and how the approach was flown. There were 2 of us inbound to the airport doing circles waiting him out because neither of us had any idea where he was, Pulled out the sectional and found the NDB, then checked out the approach, and yes he was a factor, and after three of his practice approaches, he never told us where he was after repeated request to clarify.
 
bartmc said:
The same inquiry I posed to the inspiration of this thread. He replied to me with a dissertation on where the NDB was located and how the approach was flown. There were 2 of us inbound to the airport doing circles waiting him out because neither of us had any idea where he was, Pulled out the sectional and found the NDB, then checked out the approach, and yes he was a factor, and after three of his practice approaches, he never told us where he was after repeated request to clarify.
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Sigh.
 
I don't do any of that...I do overheads and be sure to say "initial". :rolleyes:
 
The other guy waiting it out was in a BEAUTIFUL restored open cockpit biplane. Then add in a Bonanza pilot who was reporting off the wrong spot and scared himself into thinking we were within 0.2 of a mile of each other at the same altitude ( I knew he was 10 miles behind me, I'd been listening to him for 20 minutes), I just broke off and went and flew over the beach for 20 minutes, there were worse things I could have been doing, like sorting out position reports.
 
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Bart, when you approach the pattern and you're talking on CTAF assume no one understands instrument lingo (if they did, they wouldn't be in your area until after you landed anyway). Call out your position and explain you are on an approach. They can figure it out from there.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Bart, when you approach the pattern and you're talking on CTAF assume no one understands instrument lingo (if they did, they wouldn't be in your area until after you landed anyway). Call out your position and explain you are on an approach. They can figure it out from there.
Click to expand...

I don't do this, a guy at the airport was and i've heard it many times, I wanted to go on a rant but didn't :)
 
bartmc said:
Is it kosher to use instrument approach fixes and "lingo" on the CTAF at uncontrolled airports on severe VFR days when you're out just flying approaches, alone, for the heck of it?

For instance "Podunk Airport, Piper 1234A 2.36 miles from the Whatever NDB, Flying NDB RW33 Approach,Podunk Airport"?
Click to expand...

It's kosher if you believe Advisory Circular 90-42F Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without Operating Control Towers:

"STRAWN TRAFFIC, CESSNA TWO ONE FOUR THREE QUEBEC (NAME - FINAL APPROACH FIX) INBOUND DESCENDING THROUGH (ALTITUDE) PRACTICE (TYPE) APPROACH RUNWAY THREE FIVE STRAWN."
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Not many VFR only pilots would know where those places are. Heck, I am instrument rated and wouldn't know what the fixes are around the several airports I fly out of.
Click to expand...

How about this one? Should a VFR-only pilot operating at KCMX have any problem with this announcement?

"Houghton County traffic, Twin Cessna one two three four alpha, GALEY inbound, descending through two thousand five hundred, ILS approach runway three one, Houghton County."

Bearing/distance from the airport is more useful.
Click to expand...

I find stating the fix to be more useful as it tells me location precisely. Stating the bearing and distance could be just a guess, and pilot's guesses are often quite inaccurate.
 
bartmc said:
The same inquiry I posed to the inspiration of this thread. He replied to me with a dissertation on where the NDB was located and how the approach was flown. There were 2 of us inbound to the airport doing circles waiting him out because neither of us had any idea where he was, Pulled out the sectional and found the NDB, then checked out the approach, and yes he was a factor, and after three of his practice approaches, he never told us where he was after repeated request to clarify.
Click to expand...

If the NDB was on the sectional why didn't either of you have any idea where he was?
 
It may be kosher per that AC, but it's just not a good practice for effective communication with all pilots who may be flying. Just assume that you're talking to a Student Pilot on his/her first solo, and that they know nothing more than you did on your first solo -- which, in retrospect, certainly wasn't much in my case, and definitely didn't include any knowledge of navaid or IAP fix locations around the airport.
 
azure said:
I will often say "Oakland-Troy traffic, Cardinal 8JT is 7 west on the RNAV 9, planning straight in rwy 9 (or planning downwind entry, 27), Oakland-Troy." I don't think it hurts to identify the approach you're flying for the benefit of those who are familiar with it, but I always include my position relative to the field and what I intend to do once I'm in the pattern.
Click to expand...

+1 makes it easy, everyone knows your position
 
roncachamp said:
I find stating the fix to be more useful as it tells me location precisely. Stating the bearing and distance could be just a guess, and pilot's guesses are often quite inaccurate.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. I find far too often distances given are just habit phrases that bear no reality to actual location (usually from students).
If not radio fixes, highway intersections are also good fixes.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Not many VFR only pilots would know where those places are. Heck, I am instrument rated and wouldn't know what the fixes are around the several airports I fly out of.

Bearing/distance from the airport is more useful.
Click to expand...

agree

I might say both though - because there are two flight schools at our airport now and a lot of VFR practice approaches being done. Two planes flying the same VFR practice approach can benefit from more specific calls.

But I do always use distance if i'm out of the clouds. For example i'd say '5 mile final runway three' instead of 'ils approach runway three, passing (FAF)'
 
oldShar said:
I agree with this. I find far too often distances given are just habit phrases that bear no reality to actual location (usually from students).
Click to expand...
Since Student Pilots probably have no idea where those radio fixes are, that doesn't help them at all.
If not radio fixes, highway intersections are also good fixes.
Click to expand...
Local landmarks are also on my "less than good idea" list. Since road and highway names are rarely marked on sectionals, transients will probably have no idea where they are. Same goes for things like "the water tower" (there may be several around any given airport) or "the mall" (too many thing which could be called a mall out there).

The best bet for ensuring that the party on the other end of the line knows where you are is to give position in relation to the airport (distance and cardinal direction) whose CTAF you're on. While it's true that some folks are distance-estimation challenged, if the other person can't tell what 8 miles is, the odds of him/her understanding where BUNGO intersection is are pretty small, so do what probably works best for the most folks on the freq.
 
Ron Levy said:
It may be kosher per that AC, but it's just not a good practice for effective communication with all pilots who may be flying. Just assume that you're talking to a Student Pilot on his/her first solo, and that they know nothing more than you did on your first solo -- which, in retrospect, certainly wasn't much in my case, and definitely didn't include any knowledge of navaid or IAP fix locations around the airport.
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting pilots should not blindly follow FAA publications?
 
oldShar said:
I agree with this. I find far too often distances given are just habit phrases that bear no reality to actual location (usually from students).
If not radio fixes, highway intersections are also good fixes.
Click to expand...

Well, I'd say highway intersections are good if they're shown on the sectional. I think anything on the sectional is fair game. I hear many reports using local landmarks that an itinerant pilot is unlikely to be familiar with; "over the hospital", "a mile north of the power plant", etc.
 
dell30rb said:
agree

I might say both though - because there are two flight schools at our airport now and a lot of VFR practice approaches being done. Two planes flying the same VFR practice approach can benefit from more specific calls.

But I do always use distance if i'm out of the clouds. For example i'd say '5 mile final runway three' instead of 'ils approach runway three, passing (FAF)'
Click to expand...

I use both. Stating the fix as well as the distance should tell those not familiar with the fix that the stated distance is reliable as it wasn't just a guess.
 
roncachamp said:
If the NDB was on the sectional why didn't either of you have any idea where he was?
Click to expand...

He was reporting his distance away from the NDB on the approach, no indication of direction. Honestly, my sectional was tucked away and I was just doing landing practice and sight seeing and was never more than 20 miles from the airport. I pulled out my sectional to find the NDB when my attempts to get him to tell me where he was in relation to the airport failed. Turns out, the NDB was was 3 miles off the approach end of the runway. Instead of briefing an NDB approach and calculating his position while I'm trying to land, I just went flying around sight seeing until he got his reps in and landed.
 
bartmc said:
He was reporting his distance away from the NDB on the approach, no indication of direction. Honestly, my sectional was tucked away and I was just doing landing practice and sight seeing and was never more than 20 miles from the airport. I pulled out my sectional to find the NDB when my attempts to get him to tell me where he was in relation to the airport failed.
Click to expand...
Which is why it's best to use bearing/distance from the airport. Folks in the pattern have enough to do without going head-down in the cockpit to pull out a sectional and find the point referenced. Let's try to keep it nice and simple, and we'll all have an easier time.
 
oldShar said:
I agree with this. I find far too often distances given are just habit phrases that bear no reality to actual location (usually from students).
If not radio fixes, highway intersections are also good fixes.
Click to expand...
Use the waypoint as a known (to you) location but transmit your location as the WP's distance and direction from the airport. If you're on an extended final (e.g. it's a straight in approach to some runway) describing your position as a xx mile final where xx is the distance from the waypoint to the airport works as well or better than a direction and distance.
 
bartmc said:
Is it kosher to use instrument approach fixes and "lingo" on the CTAF at uncontrolled airports on severe VFR days when you're out just flying approaches, alone, for the heck of it?

For instance "Podunk Airport, Piper 1234A 2.36 miles from the Whatever NDB, Flying NDB RW33 Approach,Podunk Airport"?
Click to expand...

I guess you are not worried about all the vfr pilots not having a clue what you are talking about? Seems to me if you are going to make the announcement you would want everyone to know where you are otherwise what is the point?
 
DavidWhite said:
It really irks me when people do that. I usually retort with "How far away are you?"
Click to expand...
I respond with "beech 27Y approaching (same airport) crossing over walter's hay barn, will enter the pattern over jim's trout pond.
 
DavidWhite said:
It really irks me when people do that. I usually retort with "How far away are you?"
Click to expand...

I was in the pattern down wind and a Jet guy was doing practice IFR as we had a minimum vfr day. He called his location using IFR lingo and I didn't know where he was until I turned base and he called missed approach. If I do not know you are in a jet going 6 miles a minute and I don't know you are less than 60 seconds from the field then I am going to land or take off.
 
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
I guess you are not worried about all the vfr pilots not having a clue what you are talking about? Seems to me if you are going to make the announcement you would want everyone to know where you are otherwise what is the point?
Click to expand...

I don't recall saying I do this.
 
roncachamp said:
Well, I'd say highway intersections are good if they're shown on the sectional. I think anything on the sectional is fair game. I hear many reports using local landmarks that an itinerant pilot is unlikely to be familiar with; "over the hospital", "a mile north of the power plant", etc.
Click to expand...

Meanwhile the FAA is trying to figure out why there are so many midair collisions and what they can do about it?

Maybe they should start here.

"anything on the sectional is fair game" seems like you are playing a game of catch me making a mistake. Problem is that if you win, you lose.

We all know that there are pilots who fly 15 hrs a year, barely enough to keep proficient and then on top of that we are doing to dump this "if its on the sectional its fair game" mentality on them, we are really setting ourselves up to fail.

I think Capt. Levy has the best handle on this thread.

I toast Capt. Levy again!
 
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roncachamp said:
How about this one? Should a VFR-only pilot operating at KCMX have any problem with this announcement?

"Houghton County traffic, Twin Cessna one two three four alpha, GALEY inbound, descending through two thousand five hundred, ILS approach runway three one, Houghton County."

I find stating the fix to be more useful as it tells me location precisely.
Click to expand...

Well Ron, you and I are smart enough to memorize the exact position of every IFR fix for every approach to every airport in the national traffic system, so we will know exactly where 'Galey' is located. I had them all memorized before I flew my first solo in a J-3.

Sadly, see those guys over there? They are way more stupid than we are. In particular, they are too stupid to know where 'Galey' is.

Because of these other idiots around I'd suggest you say something like

"Houghton County traffic, Twin Cessna one two three four alpha, 4.9 miles straight in runway three one, descending through two thousand five hundred, Houghton County."

Lesser pilots than you and I might say '5 miles', but 4.9 miles if far more precise for those of us who have laser ranging implants in our eyeballs.

Note also that those other slow-witted pilots will appreciate having the runway and distance together, followed by the altitude. Easier for those slow wits to parse.
 
JimNtexas said:
Well Ron, you and I are smart enough to memorize the exact position of every IFR fix for every approach to every airport in the national traffic system, so we will know exactly where 'Galey' is located. I had them all memorized before I flew my first solo in a J-3.

Sadly, see those guys over there? They are way more stupid than we are. In particular, they are too stupid to know where 'Galey' is.

Because of these other idiots around I'd suggest you say something like

"Houghton County traffic, Twin Cessna one two three four alpha, 4.9 miles straight in runway three one, descending through two thousand five hundred, Houghton County."

Lesser pilots than you and I might say '5 miles', but 4.9 miles if far more precise for those of us who have laser ranging implants in our eyeballs.

Note also that those other slow-witted pilots will appreciate having the runway and distance together, followed by the altitude. Easier for those slow wits to parse.
Click to expand...

So is that a "Yes" or a "No"?

If pilots are as slow-witted as you seem to believe why make any call at all?
 
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