Poor support from Garmin

AcroBoy

AcroBoy

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Jim N
I have a legacy Garmin 430 in my aerobatic plane, and the other day noticed the CDI pegged full scale. After trouble checking, it turns out the problem was in the box, and not the harness or the CDI.

Tried to send it back to Garmin (they do not support field repairs), for a flat rate of $900, regardless of the problem. Pretty high?

Turns out my box was pretty early (11 years old), so they do NOT support repairs on these units any longer. The only way to have it fixed is to convert it to a WAAS unit, which will be $3500! This is for an aerobatic plane with absolutely no need for WAAS.

I recognize that these days if something goes wrong they would need to switch out a board, but there must be thousands of legacy units out there in VFR airplanes that don't need the WAAS conversion and new antenna.

Pretty poor support on the part of Garmin. Good luck if your legacy unit ever goes bad.
 
I understand your frustration. It's not easy for Garmin either ... regardless, their
decision $tink$.

The worst part? This problem will become increasingly frequent.

Many of the semiconductors and processes that Garmin used 11 years ago are likely,
unavailable today. Why? Many chemicals/processes/equip used to fab them have
been outlawed by treaty (RoHS).

Sure, they could re-engineer service parts using new(er) chemistries/processes ...
but it would almost certainly be even more expensive. Very low volume and multiple
generations of 430's (the buttonology stayed the same, but some of the guts was
different).

Or; they could offer a return/replace program where they salvage other olde gear to
repair others' gear. But they decided not to ... I'm guessing because many customers
get downright indignant when they learn that their repairs were made using "salvage"
parts ... and you get the 1500:1500 warranty. (1500 RPM or 1500' down the taxiway,
whichever happens first). Surface mount semiconductors were never intended
to be salvaged - so this approach is fraught with add'l risk.

> there must be thousands of legacy units out there in VFR airplanes that
> don't need the WAAS conversion and new antenna.

Yup. Others like you, who don't need WAAS and are perfectly happy
with what they have.

Garmin did choose to offer an upgrade path; to a newer technology that
makes no sense for your ops. It $tink$. But installing a basic SL30 will
get you rather close to the same $3,500.

This new technology is great; and mostly, disposable. I gotta admit, I am
VERY tempted by the latest & greatest shiney-shiney avionics. But for my
typical ops, my 1994 KX155/KLN89 stack is just fine (and mostly, repairable ...
until it isn't. Sigh.
 
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all very good explainations for Garmin's failure to support their customers.

If they can't fix a customers product they should be offering Jim a substantial discount to the going rate for WASS upgrade. He should not be forced to suffer the shortcomings of the electronic component supply and Garmin's failure to maintain an adequate quantity of repair parts for their products.

I'm with Jim, Garmin's position in this regard is pretty poor.
 
> they should be offering Jim a substantial discount

I believe that the $3,500 WAAS "upgrade" is likely at-or-below their cost.
How much money should they be prepared to lose? And, for how-long?
Those costs will simply be added to the price of the newer gear, if they
wish to remain viable.
 
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Just to play devils advocate.

How long should Garmin be obligated to support these legacy units?

At least they are offering something, while $3500 sure isn't cheap, it is a lot cheaper than buying a brand new unit, and since the 430 is way out of warranty, Garmin has no obligation to do anything other than say, buy a new one.

-Dan
 
Eventually obsolete parts will be an issue for all avionics. I discussed the early GNS430 with an individual at Garmin and he said that they ran out of parts to repair the units. These early units were 28 volt only and were superseded with a new part number when the GNS530 was announced that supported either 14 or 28 volts. At that time they withdrew the new production of the 28 volt only unit. When they ran out of parts for the older unit they could not use the current Com board part as it was not included in the certification of the earlier unit. They would have to go through a re-certification of the old unit with the new part and that was not economically feasible. When they upgrade the unit to WAAS, it ends up being a new part number and the new part number permits the use of the newer or older Com board. Typical planning will stock 7 years of parts when they stop producing it, so maintenance can be expected to be available for that period of time. If the estimate of spare parts is conservative, you can expect at most 10 years post the final production to be able to obtain support.
 
But it doesn't stop at the $3,500. There's the install cost, the new antenna, and the annunciator. And a new indicator if the existing one is not compatible. This is an acro plane, so probably no autopilot, but there IS additional cost there depending on the type.

I was quoted $3500 last fall for Garmin's portion of the upgrade of my existing 430 (non-WAAS), so it probably is in-line with cost. The panel work, antenna install and annunciator would have run another $4,000. It would have been $9500 for the install of a brand new 430W unit. (I've already got a King HSI and S-Tec 60-2 autopilot with GPSS - the autopilot would require rework).

They really want you to buy new.

The other option is to buy one off of eBay.
 
... And here I was contemplating replacement of one or both of my KX-175Bs with a used 430.

Guess I'll keep the 175Bs until they quit. At the rate they're going, that might be sometime in the next century.
 
> you can expect at most 10 years post the final production to be able to
> obtain support.

I concur. Ditto for data center class computing.

I've got a customer running a $500 million/year (revenue) website on 14
year-old computers and software. We ceased writing repair contracts @
year ten. We were able to offer T&M repair until our stock was exhausted
@ year 12. They're supporting it themselves, buying hulks on eBay. Guys,
it's your ENTIRE REVENUE STREAM. It's at substantive risk. They won't
upgrade - so I'm waaaay short on them, awaiting the inevitable - Poof!

>> But it doesn't stop at the $3,500.

Correct.

... "upgradeable to ADS-B" is just the latest avionics scam. Prepare to get
out your checkbook. <g>

>>> Guess I'll keep the 175Bs until they quit.

Ditto (for my 1994 KX155 stack). It does what I need it to do. But gawd
damn - it's HARD not to succumb to Church of the Magenta Line. (I admit;
I have a G396 for, um, SA.)
 
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AcroBoy said:
Turns out my box was pretty early (11 years old), so they do NOT support repairs on these units any longer. The only way to have it fixed is to convert it to a WAAS unit, which will be $3500!
Click to expand...

My 2000 Corvette looks new and has low mileage. When it was nine years old, the Electronic Brake Control Unit (aka EBCM, a computer) died. This is a common, known problem with Corvettes of the era. What was disappointing to find out was that the EBCM was no longer available (still isn't), and all salvage yard assets are tapped out too. This, eight years after the car was manufactured. My Corvette now has lots of lights in the instrument panel lit up, and has no ABS, Traction Control, or Active Handling, and I can't do a damn thing about it. Can't even sell it for book value. Welcome to the new computer age, now BOHICA.
 
> the Electronic Brake Control Unit (aka EBCM, a computer) died.

... and if you live in a state with a thorough vehicle inspection program, that
car will be off the road (or sold in another state).

The same applies for the car radio ... as it is used to generate the various
warning chimes (mandated by DOT FMVSS).
 
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Cruiser said:
If they can't fix a customers product they should be offering Jim a substantial discount to the going rate for WASS upgrade.
Click to expand...

Or just five minutes worth of code that turns off the WAAS subsystem receiver. A few more minutes to remove the warnings and disable the approach types not flyable without it.

I'm sure FAA is partially to blame here. The box was certified with WAAS and to re-certify it as a non-WAAS box would be expensive and required.
 
rainsux said:
The same applies for the car radio ... as it is used to generate the various
warning chimes (mandated by DOT FMVSS).
Click to expand...

There have been after-market "chime" boxes for most GMCs for year's, driven by the aftermarket stereo system market needs.

Take out the stereo to put in
an aftermarket one, you needed something to ding the "driver door open" required safety chime.

As far as the ECBM goes, the only option is keeping an eye out for Corvette wrecks in the news and ambulance chasing them to the junkyard.

Mike may be able to help here through his shared recycled parts database.
 
denverpilot said:
As far as the ECBM goes, the only option is keeping an eye out for Corvette wrecks in the news and ambulance chasing them to the junkyard.

Mike may be able to help here through his shared recycled parts database.
Click to expand...

Thanks Nate. What's Mike's Screen Name here?
 
Well, the display on my 430W was dying. $900. Now, it works. They have us by the nuts.
 
Just to ease the pain a bit, the DoD is in exactly the same boat. Back when I started, the DoD drove the Avionics and Electronics world. By the time I retired, it was all commercial bits and pieces in DoD applications and designs.

The industry of supplying DoD out of production piece parts is huge.

The insanity is that because of the appropriation process in Congress and committees fiefdoms that determine by law what money can be spent for what purpose, money is easier to get for the maintenance of obsolete stuff than buying much more reliable new stuff.

All aviation is in the same boat being driven by consumer electronics. :mad:

Cheers
 
The Garmin boxes are great, and I have dual 530W/430W, GDL69A, Stormscope, and traffic on both. However, my 30 year old radar unit can still be fixed, and all of those KX 155's are still repairable.

Garmin charges a $900 flat fee for an box to go back to the factory- it could be a bent pin or several boards and the display. This policy is great if you have a major catastrophic failure, but not so much if it's a bent pin.

Why can't they upgrade the unit to the later legacy standards? Why would I possible need WAAS in my acro plane that is not IFR certified? (I do have an STEC-50 with altitude hold, since if you let go of the stick to read a map it will start rolling over or changing altitude, not that I do that many cross countries in it).

What's going to happen in a few years to all of the 530W and 430W units? Will we all have to go to touch screens and G600's? I get the need for them to make money, and I paid the money for the boxes when I bought them. I'm asking about continued and reasonable support.

Yes, it's better than a KX-155 and certainly a KX 170, and for my IFR plane, no problem. However, for a day VFR acro plane there's something about being forced to spend 3500 for a WAAS unit that I don't need is just plain annoying.
 
> > What's going to happen in a few years to all of the 530W and 430W units? Will we all have to go to touch screens and G600's?

Yes ... And the problem will likely accelerate for the touch-screens themselves.

> being forced to spend 3500 for a WAAS unit that I don't need is just
> plain annoying.

Understood. At the risk of stating the obvious:

- Use a handheld with headset adapter and external antenna.

- Install something like an SL30 or Becker ... as it gets you onto a
less expensive flat-rate repair path.

Anyone happen to know if the piston G1000-equipped fleet is airworthy if the G1000 is inop? Ie, is the G1000 an "R" item?
 
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Garmin's middle name is "poor support" but, since they have very little competition, they got us by the short hairs.

Remember when they had the charger issues with the 2/3/496's? The cigarette lighter chargers were junk and the end connector that attached to the GPS would quickly fail. They'd send you a new one for free but it was just another junk charger that had the same problem. Their reasoning: We have to go through that stock before we re-order redesigned chargers.

BS.

But more telling of their attitude towards customer service was that this was a known problem. It was being talked about on all the boards. And, yet, when you'd call them, the tech would act like this was the first time he'd ever run across it. They wouldn't believe your story that it's a well known issue and accuse you of not inserting and/or removing the plug gingerly enough. I asked for a supervisor one day and explained to him my frustrations with the techs never knowing what the recurring issues are and was told point blank that the techs know quite well what's going on but that they have orders to play dumb...

...i.e. they have orders to lie to you.

That exchange will forever shape my dealings with, and opinion of, Garmin.
 
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timwinters said:
snipped

I asked for a supervisor one day and explained to him my frustrations with the techs never knowing what the recurring issues are and was told point blank that the techs know quite well what's going on but that they have orders to play dumb...

...i.e. they have orders to lie to you.

That exchange will forever shape my dealings with, and opinion of, Garmin.
Click to expand...

One thing about the internet.....

If this story gets passed along,
Is it generally accurate, or not....

More than not, I prefer Garmin GPS products.

L.Adamson
 
You really can't blame Garmin (or HP or Oracle/Sun or Cisco or...). Nothing stands still, and it's unreasonable to expect a hardware manufacturer to be able to repair hardware past a certain reasonable lifetime.

That lifetime varies based on the technology.
Lycoming hasn't altered much (yes, better processes but same materials same dimensions) so they can repair or remanufacture stuff for decades.
For electronics, 10 years is a LONG time.

I note that many of the same people who ***** about 50 year-old engine technology are bitching that they can't get their 10 year-old GPS repaired at the component level.

If you stop insisting on new tech you won't obsolete your old tech as fast. So... put down your iPads and cell phones and all that stuff and lets go back to 1980 or earlier, shall we?

As for the G1000, there's a reason that it's so modular. They can replace a GPS module or an ADAHRS module or a Datalink module with a completely different rev using different hardware as long as it has the ability to communicate over the (ethernet) bus using the right format.
 
AcroBoy said:
I'm asking about continued and reasonable support.
Click to expand...

For how many years should Garmin provide support?

I work as an electrical engineer in the industrial control industry and it is hard to support products longer than 10 years. All of the volume for electrical components is driven by consumer electronics, which have a much shorter product life span. You end up having to use specialized components designed for the industrial, automotive, or mil/aero industry. They tend to be larger components, lower performance, less features, and significantly more expensive. And even those components are eventually impossible to source.

Ryan
 
I have a Garmin MFD in the boat acting up... Garmin wants $500 to look at it... so why don't I just trade off for a Raymarine, Furono, or Simrad?
Because their customer support is even more nasty and expensive and the owners of their gear are wailing about lack of support for back units, etc...
Sound familiar?

It is the way of the world... If you cannot afford the freight, time to get off the train...
 
n12365 said:
For how many years should Garmin provide support?

I work as an electrical engineer in the industrial control industry and it is hard to support products longer than 10 years. All of the volume for electrical components is driven by consumer electronics, which have a much shorter product life span. You end up having to use specialized components designed for the industrial, automotive, or mil/aero industry. They tend to be larger components, lower performance, less features, and significantly more expensive. And even those components are eventually impossible to source.

Ryan
Click to expand...

For the life expectantcy of the unit. Garmin should be prepared to provide repair support for the reasonable life of their products. If Garmin believes that to be 10 yrs then it should be stated in the literature.

Aviation electronics are not priced as "throw away electronics" we are not buying these at WalMart. Garmin gets a premium price they should be supporting the customer base.
If they don't want to support longer than 10yrs there should be a substantial trade-in/upgrade path from Garmin.
 
For those who bemoan Garmin's repair service, be glad they are still in business. Unlike Narco.
 
Cruiser said:
For the life expectantcy of the unit. Garmin should be prepared to provide repair support for the reasonable life of their products. If Garmin believes that to be 10 yrs then it should be stated in the literature.

Aviation electronics are not priced as "throw away electronics" we are not buying these at WalMart. Garmin gets a premium price they should be supporting the customer base.
If they don't want to support longer than 10yrs there should be a substantial trade-in/upgrade path from Garmin.
Click to expand...

When you start your avionics business, I will buy from you. Of course I will want you to remain in business so whatever premium you charge will have to cover the additional service into the future. In the meantime, Garmin has been responsible IMHO.
 
MarketWatch.com
"Garmin Ltd.'s second-quarter earnings surged 70% as the personal-navigation-devices maker saw strong revenue growth and lower costs of goods sold.
Results comfortably exceeded Wall Street expectations.
The company also raised its full-year per-share earnings view to $2.70 to $2.85 a share, up from its February view of $2.45 to $2.60. It also raised the low end of its full-year revenue guidance to $2.75 billion from its prior view of $2.7 billion." By Saabira Chaudhuri

kinda sounds like they could provide a little better customer support don't you think?
 
Cruiser said:
MarketWatch.com
"Garmin Ltd.'s second-quarter earnings surged 70% as the personal-navigation-devices maker saw strong revenue growth and lower costs of goods sold.
Results comfortably exceeded Wall Street expectations.
The company also raised its full-year per-share earnings view to $2.70 to $2.85 a share, up from its February view of $2.45 to $2.60. It also raised the low end of its full-year revenue guidance to $2.75 billion from its prior view of $2.7 billion." By Saabira Chaudhuri

kinda sounds like they could provide a little better customer support don't you think?
Click to expand...

We have a capitalist system. Offer to buy all outstanding Garmin stock and run the company your way or start your own company. Share the wealth is a common demand in our society today, I just don't agree with it.

Right now I am a customer that feels that Garmin has been responsible and makes great strides to satisfy its customers. But you sure can't please everyone, particularly those of the entitlement society.
 
I'm in the same boat..Ford won't stock parts for my Edsel. :D With the evolution speed of modern avionics expecting service on an 11 year old machine is a bit optimistic IMHO.
 
Cruiser said:
For the life expectantcy of the unit. Garmin should be prepared to provide repair support for the reasonable life of their products. If Garmin believes that to be 10 yrs then it should be stated in the literature.
Click to expand...

I agree that Garmin should do a better job of communicate lifecycle status. Where I work, we publish an expected time period where we will provide full support. Then we announce when a product is mature, which means it is available for purchase, but not recommended for new installations. Finally the product is marked discontinued and you can't buy new, but can still have existing modules repaired for up to two years, sometimes longer depending on the demand for repairs.

It would be nice if Garmin would publicly state how long customers should expect the flat rate repairs service to be available. If you had known when you bought the GPS that Garmin would only support it for 10 years, you could factor that into the purchase price and wouldn't have been as surprised they couldn't repair it after 11 years. Hopefully with Avidyne getting into the NAV/COM/GPS business, it will give Garmin some competition.

Ryan
 
It sounds like the root problem isn't that Garmin can't repair old avionics--they clearly can. It's that they haven't gone through the regulatory certification process for new components in old avionics, and that's the problem. It's mostly the regulatory environment in which they operate (and which they have little to no control over) that has dictated obsolescence here.



JKG
 
JGoodish said:
It sounds like the root problem isn't that Garmin can't repair old avionics--they clearly can. It's that they haven't gone through the regulatory certification process for new components in old avionics, and that's the problem. It's mostly the regulatory environment in which they operate (and which they have little to no control over) that has dictated obsolescence here.



JKG
Click to expand...

Which is absolutely true, but an immaterial difference to me as John Q consumer. I say to that, eff it, I don't get to give you 10 grand for a radio I'm going to have to chuck in 10 years. This shelf life is assumed in the first place, nowhere was that even remotely stated as fact or guarantee. However, the market has given Garmin a free pass. You are all responsible for that. The alternative is lower prices for equipment "deemed" lesser performing, which is what I have done as a consumer in said "market".

If the things didn't cost my yearly operating budget, I wouldn't sweat having to chuck it in 10 years.

I do agree, what needs to be chucked, like everything else in certified aviation, particularly recreational general aviation, is the certification process. All the way down from the avionics to the airframes to the litigation ramifications. Stamp an EXP on the side of everything and tell everybody 'it's on you' for all I care. Fix that pricing problem real quick :D To some people, the perception of safety provided by that process supports the prices. You pick your poison. Some of us aren't afraid of the possibility we might slip and die on the bath tub. To each their own on that regard.
 
Many chemicals/processes/equip used to fab them have
been outlawed by treaty (RoHS).
Click to expand...

Does the USA participate in that stupid European regulation?

Regards the Corvette with the "fault" lights, does it have an ODB2 connector somewhere? :rolleyes:
 
As is the case in most things Electrically Engineered, two years after the big upfront custom order for a custom spec integrated processor, the availablity of that ends. So most niche market companies are forced to make the onetime "big buy". They do the production run, and hold some back in reserve. But when they run out, that's all. There's no more.

Those of you that had Northstar M3s - a delightful GPS IFR navigator, will understand. CNC of Canada will support it, but if you need that one part, you unit just died.
 
TMetzinger said:
...That lifetime varies based on the technology.
Lycoming hasn't altered much (yes, better processes but same materials same dimensions) so they can repair or remanufacture stuff for decades.
.
Click to expand...

How is that (VAC) Vacuum Arc Remelt) crankshaft concept working out for Lycoming ?:dunno::hairraise:...

Yeah, I know Lyc offered warrenties on all the bad cranks for a LIMITED time.. Now all the poor suckers who didn't excersize that option need to cough up 10 grand + to fix Lycomings mistake..

Jus sayin...:wink2:
 
Unless you choose Lyco for your overhaul, in which case they give you a new crank "for free".

You are right about their $2000 crank offer ending in 2009, but IMHO that was just to stop people from using independent engine shops after that point.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
My 2000 Corvette looks new and has low mileage. When it was nine years old, the Electronic Brake Control Unit (aka EBCM, a computer) died. This is a common, known problem with Corvettes of the era. What was disappointing to find out was that the EBCM was no longer available (still isn't), and all salvage yard assets are tapped out too. This, eight years after the car was manufactured. My Corvette now has lots of lights in the instrument panel lit up, and has no ABS, Traction Control, or Active Handling, and I can't do a damn thing about it. Can't even sell it for book value. Welcome to the new computer age, now BOHICA.
Click to expand...


http://forums.corvetteforum.com/tags/ebcm.html
 
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