Pedals2Paddles
Cleared for Takeoff
I will concede that it indeed gets easier and more automated with ADS-B.
Poll: Will ADS-B Inevitably lead to user's fees?
- Thread starter Jay Honeck
- Start date
ClimbnSink
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2007
- Messages
- 6,997
- Display Name
Display name:
Greg
I'm guessing this type of tax stuff will be first. If the states and counties(CA counties tax planes dunno of others) have access to the data they will be lovin it. Fee for ATC services mehbe not so quick. How much political power does the ATC union have? I'm sure they'd rather not have their services directly billed, last thing they want is demand to go down.
Dav8or
Final Approach
Ultimately, I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. Who cares if they use ADS-B to send us bills? As has been pointed out they can do that without this technology and in fact billing has been done in Europe and Canada for decades without this technology. The central concern is, are they going to bill us, not how will they bill us.
It's all irrelevant anyhow. The Feds have told us that it will mandatory that we have ADS-B after 2020 to fly in controlled airspace and above 10,000 ft. It is what it is. Either buy the gear and suck it up, or don't buy the gear and fly around the boonies. Again, the concern is about the fees themselves, not the possible ways they could track us with the intent of billing us.
It's all irrelevant anyhow. The Feds have told us that it will mandatory that we have ADS-B after 2020 to fly in controlled airspace and above 10,000 ft. It is what it is. Either buy the gear and suck it up, or don't buy the gear and fly around the boonies. Again, the concern is about the fees themselves, not the possible ways they could track us with the intent of billing us.
docmirror
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2007
- Messages
- 12,008
- Display Name
Display name:
Cowboy - yeehah!
I consider this is a significant departure from the current method, mainly due to the nature of the class B system. Of course, class B airspace exists around the largest metro areas, where the largest populations of GA aircraft, as well as comm aircraft want to operate. No one in the FAA or out of it cares if you go from Paris TX direct Chelan WA with a stop for gas along the way at a small uncontrolled field. As long as you maintain less than 10,000' no one cares. But - as anyone knows, the concentration of flights is between major metro areas, which is why we live around them, and comm traffic goes between DFW, and SEA.
Right now, today I can get within a few miles of DFW, and SEA without squawking or talking to anyone. Frex, I could fly and land with mode C, or even without mode C if I didn't have an engine driven generator at NW regional and be a short drive from Dallas and Fort Worth, all without talking to anyone, and leaving my txp on mode C with a 1200 squawk. In fact, that's what I do regularly, and I like it that way. Now lets FF to 2020, and all of a sudden, 52F, and several other fields are off limits to me, and everyone else without letting the FAA and everyone else in on our movements, which could, and likely would be used to generate user fees. I'm now relegated to Rockwall, F46 as I have no intention of getting into the surveillance plan. Rockwall isn't a bad spot, and I'm guessing it'll get significantly busier come 2020, when many others like me refuse to kowtow. It is what it is, but what it is is not mode C like, and that's a bad thing. Sorry about the poor grammar.
Right now, today I can get within a few miles of DFW, and SEA without squawking or talking to anyone. Frex, I could fly and land with mode C, or even without mode C if I didn't have an engine driven generator at NW regional and be a short drive from Dallas and Fort Worth, all without talking to anyone, and leaving my txp on mode C with a 1200 squawk. In fact, that's what I do regularly, and I like it that way. Now lets FF to 2020, and all of a sudden, 52F, and several other fields are off limits to me, and everyone else without letting the FAA and everyone else in on our movements, which could, and likely would be used to generate user fees. I'm now relegated to Rockwall, F46 as I have no intention of getting into the surveillance plan. Rockwall isn't a bad spot, and I'm guessing it'll get significantly busier come 2020, when many others like me refuse to kowtow. It is what it is, but what it is is not mode C like, and that's a bad thing. Sorry about the poor grammar.
nauga
Self-righteous rivet-punching gatekeeper
Management Council Member
PoA Technical Administrator
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2013
- Messages
- 4,411
- Location
- Live from the Grill-o-mat
- Display Name
Display name:
Mantis Toboggan, MD
Oh thank goodness. We thought you were a government employee.
Nauga,
now with whitewash and tinfoil
Last edited:
Neal Howard
Cleared for Takeoff
With a plain old mode-C transponder squawking 1200 and a UAT, you can be both anonymous VFR and ADS-B Out compliant (below 18K MSL) at the same time. With a mode-S transponder squawking 1200, they've automatically got your N-number.
Well thank god nobody has come up with a technology that allows ATC to track the position of an aircraft without a transponder. Just imagine if they could somehow detect objects in the air with... I dunno a radio signal bounced off the airplane or something.
Man... they could follow you all the way to your destination and call someone take down your N number. End of aviation as we know it, that's what it would be I tells ya!
Man... they could follow you all the way to your destination and call someone take down your N number. End of aviation as we know it, that's what it would be I tells ya!
Neal Howard
Cleared for Takeoff
Nowhere near as convenient and automatic as...
>SELECT * FROM REGISTRATION_TABLE WHERE S_CODE = "0xA0A0C2";
--query results--
Registration N14EG
Last Action Date 2013-07-18
Airworthiness Date 2003-09-25
Expiration Date 2016-07-31
Manufacturer_Name GRIFFITH EMMETT M
Model Name VANS RV8A
Registrant Name AMELIAS LANDING INC
Street 105 N ALISTER ST
Registrant City PORT ARANSAS
Registrant State TX
Registrant Zip Code 783734008
Country UNITED STATES
Region Southwestern
Registrant Type Corporation
Certificate Issue Date 2013-07-18
Status N-Number Assigned and Registered
Serial Number 81214
Aircraft Type Fixed wing single engine
Mode S Code 0xA0A0C2
Year Mfr 2003
Aircraft Category Land
Builder Certification Not Type Certificated
Number Engines 1
Number Seats 2
Aircraft Weight CLASS 1
Airworthiness Classification Experimental
Approved Operation Codes Amateur Built
Engine Manufacturer LYCOMING
Engine Model Name O-360-A1A
Engine Type Reciprocating
--end of query, elapsed time 0.5 seconds--
>
Last edited:
docmirror
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2007
- Messages
- 12,008
- Display Name
Display name:
Cowboy - yeehah!
Jeez, I am so glad I'm not going to participate in this crap.
holy-shyte. Imagine for a few seconds if this was publicly available info for cars on the road, that anyone with an internet connection could delve into. More tin foil hats sold every minute, and buddy - they are starting to feel pretty comfy.
holy-shyte. Imagine for a few seconds if this was publicly available info for cars on the road, that anyone with an internet connection could delve into. More tin foil hats sold every minute, and buddy - they are starting to feel pretty comfy.
MooneyDriver78
En-Route
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2013
- Messages
- 4,724
- Display Name
Display name:
Tom
Just reprogram the transponder with a tail number of one of another plane, they will get the bill ;-)
If you are not flying into a towered airport, who will know?
Exactly, they are two separate issues non dependent on each other, ADS-B will happen regardless user fees, and user fees may happen regardless of ADS-B.
Interesting thought, I wonder what would happen if both planes were in the system at the same time? How about when tower who has been calling you one tail number reads the wrong one off your plane?
I wonder if FAA will gain fee/tax enforcement powers, or if they'll farm it out to the IRS? You'd probably be better off to just never pay the bill claiming protest than swap numbers and commit fraud.
John Collins
En-Route
Besides committing fraud, the FAA will have a record of your flight, where you took off from, route, and where you landed. You could be found, even if you never filed a flightplan or used an ATC service. If you used ATC for FF or IFR or class C/B operation, you are likely to get a letter from the FAA. You might also end up on a TSA watch list.
John Collins
En-Route
If you install a UAT to satisfy the rule, other than the money spent for the equipment, if you are squawking 1200 and have anonymous mode selected on your UAT ADS-B Out, what is different in your scenario. BTW, don't make the mistake of installing a mode S transponder, ADS-B capable or not, as this type of transponder will always reply with your Aircraft ID which is directly related to your N number. Anonymous mode is only supported if your transponder is not mode S.
Please explain the difference.
And what happens in 2020,when most of the fleet is outfiited with ADS-B and the guv, with a stroke of a pen, bans the use of the Anonymous feature...
John Collins
En-Route
And what happens in 2020,when most of the fleet is outfiited with ADS-B and the guv, with a stroke of a pen, bans the use of the Anonymous feature...
And at the same time eliminates 1200 squawk and requires an IFR clearance for all flights and those without an electrical system are banned,
And what happens in 2020,when most of the fleet is outfiited with ADS-B and the guv, with a stroke of a pen, bans the use of the Anonymous feature...
What's the difference? You still have it, it still works. For anything I could for see needing or wanting the anonymous feature, the punishment for flying without ADS-B will be irrelevant, it will just be added to the list of charges after getting busted, and it will be at the bottom.
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
ADS-B will lead not only to user fees but to the End of Days!
The end is nigh!
The end is nigh!
MooneyDriver78
En-Route
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2013
- Messages
- 4,724
- Display Name
Display name:
Tom
I was joking, hence the ;-)
There is an estimated 200,000 active private pilots, lets assume they fly 50 times a year, and are charge $10/trip in user fees. That's $100 million,
There is 800 million passengers per year in the USA, $10 tix surcharge means they pull in $8 billion. Or a 10 cent tax on gasoline would give them $13 billion.
There are better ways (simpler, more $) the govt can used to extract hard earned cash, they don't need to use ADSB.
If there is a locality that tries to charge fees if you use a local airport, I'll bet they lose more in other revenue then they will gain in user fees.
Alexb2000
En-Route
I remember the first toll road in Dallas. We were told the highway funds weren't enough to keep up with progress and this would be limited in scope. The people thought, "well it's just one road, people don't have to use it". As of today EVERY highway in North Dallas is or is becoming a toll road. No you won't have to use them you can take the surface streets with untimed lights every 1/4 mile.
Nothing to worry about with user fees or ADS-B.
Nothing to worry about with user fees or ADS-B.
Jay Honeck
Touchdown! Greaser!
Still trying to figure out where the "anonymous mode" switch is in our new panel. Must've forgot to install it.
(I would like a toggle switch labeled "Stealth Mode", though! )
To switch to anything other than "always on" would require going into the setup menus on our EFIS and turning ADS-B out to off. Or to reprogram it to someone else's N-number.
Ain't no "anonymous mode" on the Trig TT-22, at least not one that is readily accessible.
Pedals2Paddles
Cleared for Takeoff
Jay, Again you do not have a 978 UAT. The trig T-22 is a mode S transponder, which does not have any such feature. He said, correctly, that if you install a UAT, you have that option. You do not have a UAT. You do not have that option.
You used the wrong method to get ADS-B compliant for that, you chose the transponder which gives you access to Class A airspace and will also comply for European standard. However, it will not allow 'stealth mode' without de powering it. The UAT system is the one that is independent of your transponder. You can just use a regular Mode C transponder with it. Turn the UAT box off and you lose incoming services, but you have 'stealth mode'.
Why? The concept of anonymity flying or even living today is ludicrous. Just keep good karma and do the right thing. If there comes a time you need to be anonymous for real, it will happen.
docmirror
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2007
- Messages
- 12,008
- Display Name
Display name:
Cowboy - yeehah!
That's complete BS. The concept of anonymity is one thing that's insured by the BOR. You know, illegal search and seizure? What are you going to tell those thousands of people who were 'doing the right thing' and got their identity stolen? Their lives are messed up financially for years.
Crap like this really wiffs me off. If we're going to go full exposure, lets open up the car license records to anyone. What could go wrong, even if you are 'doing the right thing', nothing bad will happen. Idiotic, progressive shyte.
How does 'illegal search and seizure' assure you a right to anonymity? Your reading of the constitution is like Ron's reading of the FARs. You will never be anonymous, never. You are tagged and printed the day you are born and layer after layer is added throughout your life. Anonymity is like Pandora's box, you open it and you lose it, yours was lost long ago. You can be invisible, you can hide, but you can't be anonymous.
Last edited:
Jay Honeck
Touchdown! Greaser!
Again, the Trig TT-22 has 1090ES ADS-B out.
There is no "anonymous mode" switch -- at least not anything that's easily accessible. It's always broadcasting ADS-B out when the power is on.
Pedals2Paddles
Cleared for Takeoff
You're not paying attention. A Trig T-22 is a Mode S Transponder, NOT A UAT. A UAT is a completely different device. A UAT is the 978 Mhz dedicated ADS-B in/out box. I has nothing to do with Mode S or 1090ES.
John Collins
En-Route
Are you saying anything new, or just repeating yourself. Is this supposed to be a joke, that is you are only anonymous when your transponder is off? Or do you truly not understand what everyone is trying to tell you? BTW, in the case of an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out, it is required to be on at all times by regulation.
Here is the regulation for ADS-B Out use:
Compare its wording with the transponder wording:
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
Jay, there are two ways of complying with the 2020 mandate. One is with a mode S transponder that has Extended Squitter. That's the 1090MHz option and with that one there's no anonymous mode. But a non-ES mode S transponder (no ADS-B out) identifies you to the ATC computers so it's not the ADS-B that removed your anonymity.
The other option is called a UAT and operates on 978MHz. This method of compliance comes with the anonymous mode and it's expected that the vast majority of single engine GA planes will take this route to comply with the 2020 ADS-B requirement. A UAT can also provide FiS (weather) while a mode S transponder cannot. You can also equip with 1090MHz ES out and 978MHz FIS in but that's usually a more expensive setup compared to a pure UAT 2-way system.
Unfortunately you appear to have gone with the 1090 ES choice and therefore can't activate ADS-B without broadcasting a unique ID but you could always re-equip with a UAT and gain that capability. In any case anyone else concerned about flight data privacy would be well advised to consider the UAT.
Jay Honeck
Touchdown! Greaser!
There are two discrete frequencies with ADS-B -- 978 and 1090. I have 978 and 1090 IN, and 1090 OUT.
There is no "anonymous mode" in my ADS-B out installation. What part of that is confusing you?
(Edit: This is directed at John Collins, not Gismo)
There is no "anonymous mode" in my ADS-B out installation. What part of that is confusing you?
(Edit: This is directed at John Collins, not Gismo)
Last edited:
Nobody else is confused, with 1090 Out, there is no discrete mode hence your inability to find it. If you had 978 UAT Out and a Mode C transponder, you could have a discrete mode.
docmirror
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2007
- Messages
- 12,008
- Display Name
Display name:
Cowboy - yeehah!
Jay, since you have only the 1090ES out, that is your source for ADS-B out compliance. The 1090ES freq design is a mode S transponder, and does not offer the anon feature like mode C(alt reporting) and mode A. Mode S is coded when you buy it with all that info, and it's delivered up to the ground station that receives your ADS-B signal.
BTW, the word 'discrete' simply means that each individual signal can be differentiated based on the info transmitted. A 'discrete' code is not the same in context as an anonymous code. All transponder transmission codes are discrete, but not all codes are anonymous. Only mode A and/or C are anonymous. Mode S is also discrete, in that it is differentiated from any other mode S code being transmitted, but it cannot be anonymous.
BTW, the word 'discrete' simply means that each individual signal can be differentiated based on the info transmitted. A 'discrete' code is not the same in context as an anonymous code. All transponder transmission codes are discrete, but not all codes are anonymous. Only mode A and/or C are anonymous. Mode S is also discrete, in that it is differentiated from any other mode S code being transmitted, but it cannot be anonymous.
Jim Logajan
En-Route
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2008
- Messages
- 4,024
- Display Name
Display name:
.
Nav Canada is the quasi-private company that provides ATC to aircraft in Canadian airspace and is funded entirely by user fees.
Canada has not needed ADS-B to support collection of user fees. Canada is not mandating ADS-B and no one has mentioned any plans to do so.
Hmmmm...
Seems that stroke of the pen has already happened.......
It happened decades ago when transponders came out. If you want to be anonymous, pull the bloody breaker on the transponder. It really doesn't matter. If you are being tracked by the FBI, they will know what blip on the scope is you regardless of transponder. Right now, they can have someone meet your blip where you land and find out exactly who you are. All the ADS-B changes in anything is the ability for us to see each other regardless of ATC, plus we get weather. That's it. There is nothing one can avoid by avoiding ADS-B, except flying in controlled airspace; and potentially some traffic.
Last edited:
John Collins
En-Route
Your statement quoted below indicates you lack the understanding of the capabilities of your system or you are making an attempt to be humorous. It was not clear which applied.
Henning......
You completely missed my point...
The requirement is to have an installed ADS-B on.....
Not true for an installed transponder...
.......:wink2:
Pedals2Paddles
Cleared for Takeoff
Ok. Let's try this in kid simple speak, since you refuse to read complete sentences.
The only device with anonymous mode is a 978mhz Universal Access Transceiver (UAT) ADS-B Out device. You do not have one of these. You have a Mode-S Transponder, which uses the 1090mhz ES for ADS-B out. This is not a UAT, just like it is not a kangaroo.