Poll - slip through base and final?

Slipping turn to final

  • Yes, slip 'er in.

    Votes: 49 87.5%

  • No, go around

    Votes: 7 12.5%
  • Total voters
    56
smigaldi said:
I am with you on this one. But I also will reduce power and use lift the nose up to get an airspeed of about 65knots. The plane will drop pretty good at that time, sort of like an elevator.
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Yep, works nicely and is much more comfortable for the pax. Not quite the same ROD, but within a few hundred FPM.
 
Why fight to save a lousy approach unless you have to (ie: engine out)? Another trip around the pattern and a bit better planning is in order. If you need to get down, you pull out all the tricks. I've done landings on too high an approach and put it on the numbers. But really, why rush it?
 
using a turning slip does not necessarily mean that the approach was lousy. Its just another tool in the bag for glideslope control. right next to power, flaps (if installed), airspeed, airbrakes, etc.
 
kent hits the nail on the head.

as I said, i usually only use the turning slip when flying the glider. being able to make a steep approach to landing is usually pretty important, and there is no second chance.
 
If I or a student gets too high during the landing descent, I say, "Let's simulate an engine out here, and this is the only place and chance we're getting to make a safe emergency landing." Then I'll demo any maneuver I can do to salvage a safe landing. Forward slips to landings are always near the top of the list. That way, they can see what can be done to safely salvage a less than ideal approach, and use it for referance in the future.

Even before I may takeover, I'll verbally coach them into say, the aggressive slip, or even put the plane there myself and tell them to hold it there, so they can feel what it's like. It may help them someday when going around is NOT an option.

In the meantime, as they practice their solo flights and landings, going around is more often the course of action for them to choose since it is an option.
 
As others have said, theres nothing wrong with a slip, but if under normal circumstances you find yourself using it consistantly on your approach, something is wrong. It should not be SOP. If it is, you need to work on your approach and patterns a little more. Once you start flying things larger and less forgiving than a 172, overshooting an approach is not so easy to compensate for.

PS. I'm new here, but I've been one the red boards for a while.
 
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fishnfly said:
As others have said, theres nothing wrong with a slip, but if under normal circumstances you find yourself using it consistantly on your approach, something is wrong.
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Uh... :no:

Use whatever tool you like that allows you to maintain absolute control of your airplane. I like to enter patterns fast and keep a tight steep pattern. This allows me to get down quick and make things easier for controllers. I prefer to stay tight and steep because if a problem were to occur I am easily within a power off landing on the runway.

It works great in some airplanes I fly and not so great in others. I simply do whatever it takes to get the airplane to go where I want. Just because a bigger faster airplane might not like it DOES NOT mean you shouldn't do it in an airplane that does. I'm WAY sick of people trying to come up with one universal way to fly every damn airplane. They are all different. Get used to it and fly each one however you must.
 
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jesse said:
Use whatever tool you like that allows you to maintain absolute control of your airplane.
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I think the point was that if you *have to* (not choose to) slip every time, you (not you particularly) should probably get some dual and learn how to make a nice stabilized approach.
 
jesse said:
Uh... :no:

Use whatever tool you like that allows you to maintain absolute control of your airplane. I like to enter patterns fast and keep a tight steep pattern. This allows me to get down quick and make things easier for controllers. I prefer to stay tight and steep because if a problem were to occur I am easily within a power off landing on the runway.

It works great in some airplanes I fly and not so great in others. I simply do whatever it takes to get the airplane to go where I want. Just because a bigger faster airplane might not like it DOES NOT mean you shouldn't do it in an airplane that does. I'm WAY sick of people trying to come up with one universal way to fly every damn airplane. They are all different. Get used to it and fly each one however you must.
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With all respect, you are wrong. First off, if you fly a pattern correctly you can make a normal approach WITHOUT SLIPPING and be able to safely land in the event of an engine failure. Second, it is ATC's job to deal with you. Yes, if there is a fast aircraft on a final and ATC asks you to make it short, do it. A slip may be necessiary. But making non-standard patterns that make you "get down faster" can actually make it harder for the controller. What if he is trying to get a departure out ahead of you. There is normally plenty of room, but you decide to come in short and fast. :no:

The airplanes a slip works great in are the ones designed for training (i.e. 172's). These airplanes are designed to be forgiving so that the student or new pilot can get away with making mistakes (comming in to high/fast). You are correct that their is not a "universal way" to fly an airplane, however just because something works in an airplane does not mean you should do it. It just reinforces a bad habit.

A slip is for correcting a misjudgement on approach. Period.

flyingcheesehead said:
I think the point was that if you *have to* (not choose to) slip every time, you (not you particularly) should probably get some dual and learn how to make a nice stabilized approach.
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Exactly. However someone who thinks its SOP to slip every time should also get some instruction. It is not standard, there is no reason to do it, and it only reinforces a bad habbit that will get you introuble later.
 
fishnfly said:
With all respect, you are wrong. First off, if you fly a pattern correctly you can make a normal approach WITHOUT SLIPPING and be able to safely land in the event of an engine failure.
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Slips are a tool to manage energy. There is nothing particuarlly special or dangerous about them. The problem with using them as a tool is you need to be familiar with the properties of your airplane.

In a power off landing I enter about 50% full forward slip right away. I use this slip combined with flaps and airspeed adjustment to control my touchdown point. It's instant--I can take it away or add it. It's like having a throttle. This throttle is very nice when you don't have power and you only get one chance.


fishnfly said:
Second, it is ATC's job to deal with you. Yes, if there is a fast aircraft on a final and ATC asks you to make it short, do it. A slip may be necessiary. But making non-standard patterns that make you "get down faster" can actually make it harder for the controller. What if he is trying to get a departure out ahead of you. There is normally plenty of room, but you decide to come in short and fast.
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If a controller wants me slow. Slow I can go. If they want me fast--fast I will be. If they don't say I will say "would like to make this fast with a tight pattern". The next words out of their mouth are "approved".

fishnfly said:
The airplanes a slip works great in are the ones designed for training (i.e. 172's). These airplanes are designed to be forgiving so that the student or new pilot can get away with making mistakes (comming in to high/fast). You are correct that their is not a "universal way" to fly an airplane, however just because something works in an airplane does not mean you should do it. It just reinforces a bad habit.
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It really is a terrible habit to use the tricks of your airplane to make it go where you want. I'm surprised I'm alive. Sorry I'll start to fly a Cub like a Boeing 747 just to be safe.

fishnfly said:
A slip is for correcting a misjudgement on approach. Period.
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Let me know if you ever come to Minneapolis. We'll go flying in an airplane WITHOUT FLAPS and I'll show you why slipping isn't for correcting a misjudgment on approach.

fishnfly said:
Exactly. However someone who thinks its SOP to slip every time should also get some instruction. It is not standard, there is no reason to do it, and it only reinforces a bad habbit that will get you introuble later.
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I would love the opportunity to compare your "no slip" policy in power off precision landings versus my "do whatever it takes" policy. You should come to Gastons--whoever can't hit the target buys steak for supper.

I'm not saying slip every freaking landing and if you don't you'll crash and die. I'm saying theres nothing wrong with using them whenever you'd like just like you use every other tool you have for landing. I tend to use them a lot simply because I think they are fun.

There are some "airports" I have landed at that simply REQUIRE that you slip in order to be safe. There are obstacles that block the standard glide slope. Even with full flaps you cannot make your approach steep enough. So you slip like hell to steepen your approach and get down.

There are only a few rules in aviation that apply to everything.
fishnfly said:
A slip is for correcting a misjudgement on approach. Period.
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is not one of the rules.
 
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jesse said:
To each their own. Writing a response to knock some sense into your flawed logic is hopeless. Someone else can do that if they want.
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I am sorry you do not understand. Perhaps with a little more expierence you will get the picture.

I am sorry to get into an argument with you and I certainly did not intend to. I'm sure you are a very good pilot. I just hate to see someone be so sure of themself when they are wrong. Keep doing what you are doing. One day you will see the light.
 
fishnfly said:
I am sorry you do not understand. Perhaps with a little more expierence you will get the picture.

I am sorry to get into an argument with you and I certainly did not intend to. I'm sure you are a very good pilot. I just hate to see someone be so sure of themself when they are wrong. Keep doing what you are doing. One day you will see the light.
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Read the above. I decided that I would waste my time and try to explain why your logic sucks. Yes that is the best word for it. I can promise you I will never see your light.

fishnfly said:
A slip is for correcting a misjudgement on approach. Period.
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Is far from the light.

I'm not trying to be an ass. But some things just cannot be ignored.
 
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fishnfly said:
I am sorry you do not understand. Perhaps with a little more expierence you will get the picture.
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You'll notice that your wonderful, "experienced" opinion is counter to a vast, vast majority of people who answered this poll.

I'm going to chalk this one up on the board of "Another reason why high timers who distrust low timers are dangerous." By my count, that's 5 high time pilots now that won't get a second look from me when I need advice.
 
SkyHog said:
You'll notice that your wonderful, "experienced" opinion is counter to a vast, vast majority of people who answered this poll.

I'm going to chalk this one up on the board of "Another reason why high timers who distrust low timers are dangerous." By my count, that's 5 high time pilots now that won't get a second look from me when I need advice.
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I had a nice chat with Jesse via IM. He and I concluded that we agree. And actually I voted to slip it verse go around. I never said it should not be used. I simply said it should not be a standard maneuver used frequently(except for certain A/C with no flaps or tail wheels where it is necessicary to see past the nose). If you need to slip in lets say a 172 in an normal situation (not saying every situation), it is because of poor energy management. The slip is not bad, its the fact that you need to slip to make a safe landing that is the problem.
 
fishnfly said:
I had a nice chat with Jesse via IM. He and I concluded that we agree. And actually I voted to slip it verse go around. I never said it should not be used. I simply said it should not be a standard maneuver used frequently(except for certain A/C with no flaps or tail wheels where it is necessicary to see past the nose). If you need to slip in lets say a 172 in an normal situation (not saying every situation), it is because of poor energy management. The slip is not bad, its the fact that you need to slip to make a safe landing that is the problem.
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That's about the gist of it concerning forward slips to landings.
As far as controllers and smooth traffic flows in the pattern goes, if you let them know what you want to do, they accomodate it very well if it's reasonable and traffic will allow it.
 
fishnfly said:
I had a nice chat with Jesse via IM. He and I concluded that we agree.
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That's what I thought, and what I was trying to say before.

I simply said it should not be a standard maneuver used frequently(except for certain A/C with no flaps or tail wheels where it is necessicary to see past the nose).
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Hmm, sounds like the Extra!

As Jesse noted, there are very few rules that apply all the time. I don't think I'd be comfortable slipping a Seneca quite yet, but that thing will drop pretty quickly if you pull all the power out so it's really not needed. On the other hand, I think the Extra might be the only plane I've been in where you really have to slip to be able to see the runway.
 
I would point out that there are some obstructed airports where the only way in will include a slip, so there are a few exceptions to the "if you have to slip all the time you're doing something wrong rule." In addition, if you want to be really pedantic, you could point out that unless the wind is directly down the runway, you'll be slipping on every approach to landing (unless you're flying a B-52, C-5, or castering gear 190-series Cessna), although that's not a slip to lose altitude.
 
Ron Levy said:
I would point out that there are some obstructed airports where the only way in will include a slip, so there are a few exceptions to the "if you have to slip all the time you're doing something wrong rule." In addition, if you want to be really pedantic, you could point out that unless the wind is directly down the runway, you'll be slipping on every approach to landing (unless you're flying a B-52, C-5, or castering gear 190-series Cessna), although that's not a slip to lose altitude.
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dont forget ercoupe! :D
 
tonycondon said:
or Ercoupe...
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Really good pilots are usually always practicing something like forward slips to LDG or soft field sims since they're in the air anyway. For those types they will sometimes comment, "I made a 'normal' approach and landing today..." because they usually don't do them unless needed for some reason.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Really good pilots are usually always practicing something like forward slips to LDG or soft field sims since they're in the air anyway. For those types they will sometimes comment, "I made a 'normal' approach and landing today..." because they usually don't do them unless needed for some reason.
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yea i know Dave. Im just trying to add the Ercoupe to the list of Ron's non-slippable airplanes.
 
tonycondon said:
yea i know Dave. Im just trying to add the Ercoupe to the list of Ron's non-slippable airplanes.
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OK, we were on cross-purposes. The planes I listed are all slippable -- it's just that you don't have to slip them in a crosswind, because they have wheels that twist so you can land them in a crab without trashing the tires. The Ercoupe is the only one mentioned so far that is unslippable with the installed controls (although Howard "Eye of the Examiner" Fried talks about leaning out the window in a crosswind). However, it lacks castering gear, so unless you're landing on grass, you shed extra rubber on every crabbed crosswind landing.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Really good pilots are usually always practicing something like forward slips to LDG or soft field sims since they're in the air anyway. For those types they will sometimes comment, "I made a 'normal' approach and landing today..." because they usually don't do them unless needed for some reason.
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The latest thing I've been practicing is fast approaches, for when Approach/Tower asks for best forward speed on an ILS. I can now do 140 knots down the glideslope to 325 feet AGL and still land in the normal spot without floating. Helps to have such a draggy airframe!

I should do more short/soft too. :yes:

The latest thing I've been doing is greasing each one. Certainly that's not normal! :rofl:
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Really good pilots are usually always practicing something like forward slips to LDG or soft field sims since they're in the air anyway. For those types they will sometimes comment, "I made a 'normal' approach and landing today..." because they usually don't do them unless needed for some reason.
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Thanks for the boost :yes: I hardly ever make normal takeoffs & landings. Skitterish pax and reminding myself it's been awhile are the two reasons why I make normal TO & Ldgs.

(I'm not really a really good pilot.)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
The latest thing I've been practicing is fast approaches, for when Approach/Tower asks for best forward speed on an ILS.
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I don't have to ask to practice, it seems that almost every time I'm out practicing I am requested for best forward speed. Sometimes more than once in one practice session.

I keep 125kts in the 172 right down to DH, and it always puts me one taxiway further than normal.
 
I have always like close patterns with steep approaches. When all I flew was 172 with flaps it was easy. No on my flapless PA-18. You need slips in the tool bag. To make a approach with out flaps and with out adding power is tough to judge. In the pattern I have alway like to be able to make the runway with no power. There are some guy that look like they are flying a 747 size pattern when they are in a 172. There is no way they can glide in on a 2 mile "short" low finle.
I am not a high time tail wheel guy. But I have found it is the best way for me to hit a target spot. I do kick it back on short so I have time to see what the winds are doing to me.
John
 
Ron Levy said:
The Ercoupe is the only one mentioned so far that is unslippable with the installed controls. However, it lacks castering gear, so unless you're landing on grass, you shed extra rubber on every crabbed crosswind landing.
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What?!..I thought (pretty sure) that airplane had castering gear. There is more than rubbing extra rubber when you land in a crab with fixed wheels. Sideways momentem may throw you over. I don't think the FAA would certify a no rudder airplane without castering gear.
 
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