POH / AFM

bqmassey

bqmassey

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I have a couple of questions about these. I've been trying to find answers, but the more I read, the more questions I have.

If I'm flying an aircraft that has only one book in it, and that book is labeled POH, I can assume that the AFM (the only part that's technically required) is included in it, correct?

Because the AFM is specific to that partical serial number, that "POH" is now anointed and is the only book that can be used in that aircraft, correct?

If the manufacturer then makes changes to the POH they are putting in brand new aircraft of the same model, are you then allowed to modify the POH in your aircraft to match it, by replace/adding/remove pages?

Let's say you can do this, are you required to? Can you legally operate perpetually with the POH/AFM that shipped with your aircraft, regardless of changes the manufacturer makes to the POH they are shipping with new aircraft?
 
bqmassey said:
I have a couple of questions about these. I've been trying to find answers, but the more I read, the more questions I have.

If I'm flying an aircraft that has only one book in it, and that book is labeled POH, I can assume that the AFM (the only part that's technically required) is included in it, correct?

Because the AFM is specific to that partical serial number, that "POH" is now anointed and is the only book that can be used in that aircraft, correct?

If the manufacturer then makes changes to the POH they are putting in brand new aircraft of the same model, are you then allowed to modify the POH in your aircraft to match it, by replace/adding/remove pages?

Let's say you can do this, are you required to? Can you legally operate perpetually with the POH/AFM that shipped with your aircraft, regardless of changes the manufacturer makes to the POH they are shipping with new aircraft?
Click to expand...

What type airplane?
 
bqmassey said:
Well, these are generic questions, not intended to be type specific, but the airframes I had in mind when these questions came up are the R22 and R44.
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Helicopters are required to have a RFM

27.1581 General.

(a) Furnishing information. A Rotorcraft Flight Manual must be furnished with each rotorcraft, and it must contain the following:
(1) Information required by §§27.1583 through 27.1589.
(2) Other information that is necessary for safe operation because of design, operating, or handling characteristics.
(b) Approved information. Each part of the manual listed in §§27.1583 through 27.1589, that is appropriate to the rotorcraft, must be furnished, verified, and approved, and must be segregated, identified, and clearly distinguished from each unapproved part of that manual.
(c) [Reserved]
(d) Table of contents. Each Rotorcraft Flight Manual must include a table of contents if the complexity of the manual indicates a need for it.
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Correct, just as an airplane is required to have an AFM.

I think for the questions I've asked, it doesn't matter if we're discussing an RFM (for a helicopter) or and AFM (for an airplane). Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
bqmassey said:
Let's say you can do this, are you required to? Can you legally operate perpetually with the POH/AFM that shipped with your aircraft, regardless of changes the manufacturer makes to the POH they are shipping with new aircraft?
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Short answer, it depends. Look at the type certificate and see what is required. You mention the R22, it looks like it requires the manual dated March 16, 1979 with various revisions depending on the model.

My airplane is a 1955 model and it requires a manual dated March 1987 or later.

In addition, you may need flight manual supplements for equipment or STCs that have been installed at one point or another. The Garmin GPSs are a common one that come to mind.
 
bqmassey said:
Correct, just as an airplane is required to have an AFM.

I think for the questions I've asked, it doesn't matter if we're discussing an RFM (for a helicopter) or and AFM (for an airplane). Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Depends upon certification requirements. If the airplane is CAR3 or FAR23 then that makes a difference.

To sum it up, there is no quick answer, lots of variables.

Here is what CAR 3 says:

3777pic_zps70c1caeb.jpg


And here is what 14 CFR Part 23 says:

23.1581 General.

(a) Furnishing information. An Airplane Flight Manual must be furnished with each airplane, and it must contain the following:
(1) Information required by §§23.1583 through 23.1589.
(2) Other information that is necessary for safe operation because of design, operating, or handling characteristics.
(3) Further information necessary to comply with the relevant operating rules.
(b) Approved information. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (b)(2) of this section, each part of the Airplane Flight Manual containing information prescribed in §§23.1583 through 23.1589 must be approved, segregated, identified and clearly distinguished from each unapproved part of that Airplane Flight Manual.
(2) The requirements of paragraph (b)(1) of this section do not apply to reciprocating engine-powered airplanes of 6,000 pounds or less maximum weight, if the following is met:
(i) Each part of the Airplane Flight Manual containing information prescribed in §23.1583 must be limited to such information, and must be approved, identified, and clearly distinguished from each other part of the Airplane Flight Manual.
(ii) The information prescribed in §§23.1585 through 23.1589 must be determined in accordance with the applicable requirements of this part and presented in its entirety in a manner acceptable to the Administrator.
(3) Each page of the Airplane Flight Manual containing information prescribed in this section must be of a type that is not easily erased, disfigured, or misplaced, and is capable of being inserted in a manual provided by the applicant, or in a folder, or in any other permanent binder.
(c) The units used in the Airplane Flight Manual must be the same as those marked on the appropriate instruments and placards.
(d) All Airplane Flight Manual operational airspeeds, unless otherwise specified, must be presented as indicated airspeeds.
(e) Provision must be made for stowing the Airplane Flight Manual in a suitable fixed container which is readily accessible to the pilot.
(f) Revisions and amendments. Each Airplane Flight Manual (AFM) must contain a means for recording the incorporation of revisions and amendments.
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91.9 Civil aircraft flight manual, marking, and placard requirements.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings, and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of the country of registry.
(b) No person may operate a U.S.-registered civil aircraft—
(1) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is required by §21.5 of this chapter unless there is available in the aircraft a current, approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or the manual provided for in §121.141(b); and
(2) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is not required by §21.5 of this chapter, unless there is available in the aircraft a current approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual material, markings, and placards, or any combination thereof.
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21.5 Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual.

(a) With each airplane or rotorcraft not type certificated with an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual and having no flight time before March 1, 1979, the holder of a type certificate (including amended or supplemental type certificates) or the licensee of a type certificate must make available to the owner at the time of delivery of the aircraft a current approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual.
(b) The Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual required by paragraph (a) of this section must contain the following information:
(1) The operating limitations and information required to be furnished in an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or in manual material, markings, and placards, by the applicable regulations under which the airplane or rotorcraft was type certificated.
(2) The maximum ambient atmospheric temperature for which engine cooling was demonstrated must be stated in the performance information section of the Flight Manual, if the applicable regulations under which the aircraft was type certificated do not require ambient temperature on engine cooling operating limitations in the Flight Manual.
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RotorAndWing said:
How so? What type airplane?
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F35 Bonanza. Type certificate A777 item number 404(s).

My impression is that I could use an earlier manual with the appropriate updates but the original flight manual and the supplement from the late '70s totals about 5 pages while the newer manual is much more substantial. I think it would take a ton of work to update the old manual to meet the requirement but I suppose it could be done.

EDIT: Looking at the TCDS a little closer it looks like the older manuals are still acceptable as long as the latest manual isn't required by an optional equipment item.
 
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RotorAndWing said:
Depends upon certification requirements. If the airplane is CAR3 or FAR23 then that makes a difference.

To sum it up, there is no quick answer, lots of variables.

Here is what CAR 3 says:

3777pic_zps70c1caeb.jpg


And here is what 14 CFR Part 23 says:
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Let me tell you how worthless the Cherokee 1969 AFM is. It has the W&B corrected many times due to equipment changes but nothing else but "examples" how to do various calculations.
 
mondtster said:
F35 Bonanza. Type certificate A777 item number 404(s).

My impression is that I could use an earlier manual with the appropriate updates but the original flight manual and the supplement from the late '70s totals about 5 pages while the newer manual is much more substantial. I think it would take a ton of work to update the old manual to meet the requirement but I suppose it could be done.
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Contact Beech or whoever owns it these days. Provide them the serial number and ask if they have a currect AFM/POH for that aircraft.
 
mondtster said:
F35 Bonanza. Type certificate A777 item number 404(s).

My impression is that I could use an earlier manual with the appropriate updates but the original flight manual and the supplement from the late '70s totals about 5 pages while the newer manual is much more substantial. I think it would take a ton of work to update the old manual to meet the requirement but I suppose it could be done.
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FAA Order 8620-2A

See paragraph 7.
 
bqmassey said:
Correct, just as an airplane is required to have an AFM.
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Some airplanes are required to have AFMs. Some older planes have a non-required owners manual and other required documents or placards. Mine for example requires a limitations book (this has the basic W&B paperwork, plus the V speeds, and the fuel/oil etc... specs) and an equipment list (predominately the rest of the w&B paperwork). I also have a half a dozen flight manual supplements (GPS, aux fuel tanks, tail STC, engine monitor, MFD, etc....) to the non-existant flight manual. Many of those supplements require the manuals for the devices they refer to to also be in the plane.

Figuring out what all the required documents really are sometimes takes some digging.

Note, except by inclusion in one of the above, you won't find any requirement for w&b paperwork to be carried. ARROW was always one of the dumbest mnemonics in my opinion. The extra W (and the now-obsolete R) really should be removed from the pabulum CFIs cram down student's throat.
 
RotorAndWing said:
FAA Order 8620-2A

See paragraph 7.
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R&W's personal interpretation of that Order regarding the requirement for AFM's has been disavowed by AFS-800. The FAA's position is that if the TCDS calls for an approved flight manual, that manual is required equipment even if the plane first flew before March 1978. Contact Ray Stinchcomb in that office if you need official verification.
 
flyingron said:
Note, except by inclusion in one of the above, you won't find any requirement for w&b paperwork to be carried.
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That's really interesting, definitely news to me.

flyingron said:
The extra W (and the now-obsolete R) really should be removed from the pabulum CFIs cram down student's throat.
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Unfortunately, as long as DPEs ask it, CFIs will teach it.

Ron Levy said:
The FAA's position is that if the TCDS calls for an approved flight manual, that manual is required equipment even if the plane first flew before March 1978.
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Can/must an aircraft operate under the TCDS revision is was built under, or does an aircraft owner/operator have an obligation to adapt to new revisions?
 
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Ron Levy said:
R&W's personal interpretation of that Order regarding the requirement for AFM's has been disavowed by AFS-800. The FAA's position is that if the TCDS calls for an approved flight manual, that manual is required equipment even if the plane first flew before March 1978. Contact Ray Stinchcomb in that office if you need official verification.
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The Order is very clear and plain language. There is no "personal interpretation" as you put it, I have quoted the Order in it's own language.

As far as any "personal interpretation" of this Order, I pointed it out for the person to read and make his own judgement. In fact, here is my post:

RotorAndWing said:
FAA Order 8620-2A

See paragraph 7.
Click to expand...

Somehow I can't see that as a "interpretation". :rolleyes2:
 
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bqmassey said:
Can/must an aircraft operate under the TCDS revision is was built under, or does an aircraft owner/operator have an obligation to adapt to new revisions?
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Once the plane is built and its airworthiness certificate issued, it's done. Later revisions of the TCDS may include additional or differing data applicable to aircraft of the same type built and certified subsequently, but I don't believe they can change the type certificate data applicable to a particular aircraft after its airworthiness certificate has been issued without issuing an AD to change it.
 
bqmassey said:
I have a couple of questions about these. I've been trying to find answers, but the more I read, the more questions I have.

If I'm flying an aircraft that has only one book in it, and that book is labeled POH, I can assume that the AFM (the only part that's technically required) is included in it, correct?

Because the AFM is specific to that partical serial number, that "POH" is now anointed and is the only book that can be used in that aircraft, correct?

If the manufacturer then makes changes to the POH they are putting in brand new aircraft of the same model, are you then allowed to modify the POH in your aircraft to match it, by replace/adding/remove pages?

Let's say you can do this, are you required to? Can you legally operate perpetually with the POH/AFM that shipped with your aircraft, regardless of changes the manufacturer makes to the POH they are shipping with new aircraft?
Click to expand...

AFM and POH are essentially the same thing.

Here is the background: http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD:1001:pc=PC_90255
 
CTLSi said:
AFM and POH are essentially the same thing.
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:sigh: :mad2: CTLSi is back to spouting incorrect information rather than asking and learning.

For aircraft first flown after March 1978, that is correct. However, for aircraft first flown before March 1978, that is incorrect. If you have a Piper or Beech from before that date, with a required AFM, you should be familiar with the separate AFM and (usually) owner's manual, with very different format and information contents. The AFM is required to be aboard, but the owner's manual is not. Without a required AFM, all you'd have would be (at best) and owner's manual which could be very skimpy indeed, and maybe even nonexistent.

Here is the background: http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD:1001:pc=PC_90255
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Great stuff -- for Australians. But not relevant unless your registration number begins with VH instead of N.
 
bqmassey said:
I have a couple of questions about these. I've been trying to find answers, but the more I read, the more questions I have.

If I'm flying an aircraft that has only one book in it, and that book is labeled POH, I can assume that the AFM (the only part that's technically required) is included in it, correct?
Click to expand...
More or less correct. For context, it's important to understand what a POH is.

A POH, "Pilots Operating Handbook" is a combination of material required by the certification regulations (AFM) and other material that the manufacturer wants you to have. "POH" actually refers to the format of the book. In 1977, GAMA (General Aviation Manufacturers' Association) published Specification No. 1. It is essentially a consensus among manufacturers regarding the order and naming of the sections of the flight manual and the material that goes into each so that transitions between makes and models would be easier.

Because the AFM is specific to that partical serial number, that "POH" is now anointed and is the only book that can be used in that aircraft, correct?
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I'm not sure what you mean by "only book that can be used in that aircraft." Being specific to the aircraft, the POH will include supplements for the operation of N-number-specific equipment. The POH from another aircraft, even the same make, model and year, might not have the information for yours.

If the manufacturer then makes changes to the POH they are putting in brand new aircraft of the same model, are you then allowed to modify the POH in your aircraft to match it, by replace/adding/remove pages?
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Not really. There is going to be information in a 2012 C172 with a G1000 panel POH that will be completely inapplicable to your 2002 round-dial C172. That's an extreme example but you will often find small changes between series of aircraft within a model. An more subtle example I can think of offhand is that the pre-1991 Mooney M20J has different performance numbers (and I think some limitations also) than the post-1991 aircraft of the same model.

What does happen is that there may be applicable regulatory or other changes that lead to updates in AFM information. Revisions will be sent out to the owners of affected aircraft. 23.1581(f) requires the AFM to be in a form that allow for the incorporation of revisions and amendments, likely why a POH tends to be in a looseleaf format.

Let's say you can do this, are you required to? Can you legally operate perpetually with the POH/AFM that shipped with your aircraft, regardless of changes the manufacturer makes to the POH they are shipping with new aircraft?
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Since you can't just willy-nilly decide to change your AFM, let's change the question to whether you are required to incorporate the revisions and amendments that are made for your N-Number. You are. Keep in mind that for aircraft subject to the 91.3 requirement for an AFM, what is required is a "current, approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual" (my emphasis).

Just for jollies, let's toss the PIM (Pilot Information Manual) into the mix since some many of us buy one when training or when renting. A PIM is just a term we use for an off-the-shelf manual in the POH format. It looks just like the stock POH for the same aircraft but it is not aircraft-specific (that page with the serial number will be there but the serial number will be blank), does not reflect any later changes or added equipment, and doesn't get updated.
 
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RotorAndWing said:
The Order is very clear and plain language. There is no "personal interpretation" as you put it, I have quoted the Order in it's own language.
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Heck, I can't even figure out what you and Ron are arguing about. ¶7 in the Order just says that there has to be a regulatory basis for enforcing information contained in the TCDS. Well, duh.
 
Ron Levy said:
Once the plane is built and its airworthiness certificate issued, it's done. Later revisions of the TCDS may include additional or differing data applicable to aircraft of the same type built and certified subsequently, but I don't believe they can change the type certificate data applicable to a particular aircraft after its airworthiness certificate has been issued without issuing an AD to change it.
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Please show me the AD(s) covering even one of the 83 revisions to 3A13 (172 series).

None of these CAR 3 manuals that I'm familiar with are FAA approved. Very few of them have ever been revised since issued.

IME real FAA approved books have a title page or other signed and dated by the administrator, and some sort of revisions page or list of effective pages etc.

IME real FAA approved books are all full of unapproved "advisory" junk too, following the approved part.

Very Few Structural Repair manuals are FAA approved. Many unapproved manuals contain specific FAA approved repair schemes and it will say if it is.

Parts manuals are not FAA approved.

Service Manuals are not FAA approved (tho it may have an airworthiness limitations chapter which is) For example, the Service/Maintenance Manual may have a section covering RVSM, but its not FAA approved. The operator must create and submit andRVSM manual for FAA approval and monitoring.

"FAA approved" is a statement abused beyond belief.
 
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RotorAndWing said:
Yep, agreed.
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Then what was the point of your post? 14 CFR 91.9(a) provides the regulatory basis for enforcement actions based on failure to have the flight manual listed as required in the TCDS ("... or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of the country of registry"). So, if the TCDS says a flight manual is required, you must have it aboard to be legal.
 
bnt83 said:
Please show me the AD(s) covering even one of the 83 revisions to 3A13 (172 series).
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Please show me the TCDS revision which changed the requirements for an aircraft which already had its airworthiness certificate issued. As I said, the revisions only add data for subsequent design changes. In order to change something on an airplane already issued an AC, they must issue an AD.

None of these CAR 3 manuals that I'm familiar with are FAA approved. Very few of them have ever been revised since issued.

IME real FAA approved books have a title page or other signed and dated by the administrator, and some sort of revisions page or list of effective pages etc.
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Then you've never seen the Cessna 140 AFM from the late 40's, which is, per its TCDS, required to be in the plane (see Item 403 in the "Specifications Pertinent to All Models" section) -- and that's a CAR 3 airplane.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Please show me the TCDS revision which changed the requirements for an aircraft which already had its airworthiness certificate issued. As I said, the revisions only add data for subsequent design changes. In order to change something on an airplane already issued an AC, they must issue an AD.

Then you've never seen the Cessna 140 AFM from the late 40's, which is, per its TCDS, required to be in the plane (see Item 403 in the "Specifications Pertinent to All Models" section) -- and that's a CAR 3 airplane.
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Isn't that interesting :lol:

No clue why this TCDS would have every page on Revision 33 or higher without changing that data with what you speak of and no AD's to alert changes.

Note 6 is interesting, its basically adding a new limitations to all the airplanes, but no AD? No placard requirements either? Hmmm.
 
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bnt83 said:
Isn't that interesting :lol:

No clue why this TCDS would have every page on Revision 33 or higher without changing that data with what you speak of and no AD's to alert changes.

Note 6 is interesting, its basically adding a new limitations to all the airplanes, but no AD? No placard requirements either? Hmmm.
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Since alcohol-based fuels were never legal on this plane to start with, I don't see that as a "new limitation", and there's nothing saying such a placard must be added. So, I don't see an AD as being necessary, nor even such a placard.
 
Ron Levy said:
Then what was the point of your post? 14 CFR 91.9(a) provides the regulatory basis for enforcement actions based on failure to have the flight manual listed as required in the TCDS ("... or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of the country of registry"). So, if the TCDS says a flight manual is required, you must have it aboard to be legal.
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Well, duh.......:rolleyes:
 
Ron Levy said:
You said otherwise in the past.
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You have yet to get your buddy in AFS-800 to put your claim on a letterhead and sign it. If he is backing it up official policy he should have no problem giving you a letter on FAA letterhead stating such and sign his name and title on it.
 
RotorAndWing said:
You have yet to get your buddy in AFS-800 to put your claim on a letterhead and sign it. If he is backing it up official policy he should have no problem giving you a letter on FAA letterhead stating such and sign his name and title on it.
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Frankly, I don't give a damn. I'm letting folks know that it's required no matter what you say that FAA Order says. Anyone who feels the need for official confirmation can ask the FAA themselves. I leave that choice to them, but I can absolutely guarantee that if you listen to me, you will not get in trouble with the FAA on this issue. Someone who says otherwise cannot make that guarantee.
 
Ron Levy said:
Frankly, I don't give a damn. I'm letting folks know that it's required no matter what you say that FAA Order says.
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I copied an FAA Order and the applicable regulations and I let the reader make the decision. Go back through this thread and show where I made an "interpretation" of the order. I simply posted copies of regs and a link to an Order.

Ron Levy said:
Anyone who feels the need for official confirmation can ask the FAA themselves.
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Why, you have stated here that AFS-800 has specifically given you guidance on the Order. You should know by now there is no such thing as verbal guidance within the FAA, if it's not in writing on a FAA letterhead "I was told" is meaningless. Ask your friend to give you an official answer on the subject, on a letterhead and ask him to sign it.

Ron Levy said:
I leave that choice to them, but I can absolutely guarantee that if you listen to me, you will not get in trouble with the FAA on this issue. Someone who says otherwise cannot make that guarantee.
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You are a guy from Maryland with a Flight Instructor rating, nothing more. You are not an attorney, nor have you ever been employed by the FAA, nor have you attended any training from the FAA on the subject. Everything you post here is just your opinion, nothing more. Your "absolute guarantee" is meaningless.
 
RotorAndWing said:
You are a guy from Maryland with a Flight Instructor rating, nothing more. You are not an attorney, nor have you ever been employed by the FAA, nor have you attended any training from the FAA on the subject. Everything you post here is just your opinion, nothing more. Your "absolute guarantee" is meaningless.
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No, it is not. I publicly offer to indemnify the legal expenses of anyone who gets in trouble with the FAA while following my advice on this point. How's that for a guarantee? Can you make the same guarantee for someone choosing to do otherwise? And if you cannot, then kindly bugger off and find someone else to annoy while I try to give people sound advice on how to operate legally.

And I do not hold a "Flight Instructor rating" -- those went away many decades ago, as you should know if you were an FAA ASI (Ops). I hold a Flight Instructor certificate. So please try to be more accurate in your posts.
 
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