PoA newbie help

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TaylorSX16

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TaylorSX16
Pilots of America, I bid you all greetings from Pittsburgh PA!

I'm new here, I have my Commercial with instrument multi, complex and high performance endorsements, 753TT

I'm stumped on intel for this topic and not sure where to put it. My family wants to look into buying an aircraft and ive been going over our mission and needs/wants. We decided on a piper lance for the useful load. However I'm stuck on how to gather costs per flight hour, etc. AOPA sites only have so much. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
 
Welcome. Well some things are easy. Look up the gas price and figure out how much that will be. You can inquire from a broker what the insurance will run you. I suspect routine annuals will run about $1500 (provided nothing is broke nor maintenance deferred). There's a Lance Owners of America type club that can probably tell you what you're in for with regard to maintenance and AD stuff. Then you call up airports until you find a place to put it and see what the rent ends up being there. You'll have to decide if you want to build up a maintenance reserve or deal with things as they come. If you buy, you have to see if you can find one that meets your avionics needs or budget to upgrade.
 
flyingron said:
Welcome.
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I Echo that.
flyingron said:
Then you call up airports until you find a place to put it and see what the rent ends up being there.
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I emphasize that. You can't keep it in your back yard, unless you have a REALLLY BIG back yard. There was a recent thread where a new plane owner (or perhaps a potential plane owner) could find no place to park it.
I just made a post about hangar prices because I got a quote for a spot in a community hangar near me for $1,275/month, and I don't believe that include tax. I'll just stay where I am at $570/month.

And whatever you estimate you will need to pay annually for maintenance, double that; except for the first year (then triple it) A friend of mine bought a Bonanza A36 at a good price. On his first annual he found out he needed a new engine. He opted to upgrade to an IO550 for around $80k. Fortunately he could afford that. Make sure you can too. Also evaluate the avionics and decide if you might need a $100k panel upgrade soon or not.

One other cost not to be overlooked: We use our plane to travel. When we do we wind up paying for tie down spots, landing fees, hotels, meals, rental cars and all sorts of entertainment fees. These add up big and fast, but that is why we have a plane.

Aviation is expensive. That is why the term AMU (aviation monetary unit) was coined. One AMU is about a $1,000 and that is usually the minimum you expect to pay when you need anything done to your plane. Need a tire or two replaced? One AMU.
 
Ok, I own a Lance... I can give you some info.
Real world fuel burn is around 13-16gph depending on what power settings you use and if run lean of peak or not. My last annual inspection was around $3,000 with a couple of extra fixes beyond the basic inspection but I'm paying really cheap rural midwest prices, YMMV. Also expect the first annual inspection to cost more- the first time a mechanic sees a plane there are usually things he'll notice that last guy didn't. Oil changes are at 50hrs and I think the typical price is around $200-$300.... but if you can do it yourself it may only be half that or less. Hopefully the airplane you find is in good condition and won't need much but these are old airplanes and you should be prepared for unexpected and expensive repairs. Hopefully only hundreds or a couple thousand but unexpected 5-figure repairs can happen so hopefully you are prepared to deal with that if it comes up.

I can't help you on hangar prices because those are REALLY regional. Some people may be paying under $200/mo and others are well over $1,000- check your local airport and also ensure there is a hangar available. A lot of airports have a waiting list unfortunately.

I can tell you my insurance on a Piper Lance with an instrument rating and a few hundred hours in the aircraft is ~$3,000/year. It can be considerably higher than that, you might check with a company like Avemco that will do hypothetical quotes before you buy. More total hours in your logbook helps, an instrument rating helps, and hours in a retract help.

Hopefully that helps, anything technical/performance/flying wise you want to know about the Lance I'd be happy to answer.
 
Welcome, design a spread sheet for fixed and operating costs. Decide how many hours a year you plan on flying. That will get you started. Unfortunately you can’t predict unexpected costs when something breaks.
 
Cowman covered the direct operating costs pretty well. Don't forget about long term costs like engine replacement and avionics upgrades. You may not have to write a check for these items, but they will be reflected in the money you get back out when you sell. @NealRomeoGolf is getting quotes for a factory reman engine in the 75K neighborhood. I think you could do a field overhaul for closer to 50. Another 10 or so for R&R. Divide that by 2000hr TBO, and it becomes a not insignificant hourly cost.

I would say my average annual has been closer to $5k. It's hard to tell though, as the first one was 20k, and then I usually do some kind of an upgrade while she's in the shop.

We had a thread recently on a similarish subject: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/ownership-economics-question.146751/post-3503939

We have a few Lance guys here. There is a pa32 group on Facebook that's pretty good if you're into that.

Welcome to POA!
 
Thank you all for the replies so far!

I have found two so far on the market ranging from 160-190k, both low time on engines and airframe around 4000-6800 on airframe and I'm looking at flying around 150/year. One engine was about 937, the other was 532, props were good on time too, no more than 500 each. However, both have need of new panels but I'm not looking to go FULL glass for this. I'm thinking GTN650, Dual G5s or GI 275s, a digital engine monitor maybe from JPI (most ofmy friends brag about them) that can tell me everything including fuel burn and gal remaining if i can but I'm ok with sticking to the current old analog gauges if needed. Autopilot is going to be tricky but I'm thinking an S-TEC 50 since it can work with the GTN 650, I hear Garmin charges big time for theirs. Interior maybe, I'm not sure about that one but I hear Airtex is good.

I have more than 100 hrs on both retract and hp, could be 200 maybe by now ill have to tally the numbers one day soon. I found a place that is charging between 110-220 per month (sites ive learned are always far behind no matter how well updated they are) for hanger rent so far but yeah waiting lists do exist.

Insurance I expected could be around 3000/year. Figured annuals are 3-5k per year, knowing my run with CAP lately. Oil at 200-300 per 50 hour sounds about right too.

I never made up a spreadsheet before for anything of this, hence the thread lol
 
JOhnH said:
I Echo that.

I emphasize that. You can't keep it in your back yard, unless you have a REALLLY BIG back yard.
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I have two acres, but the Navion was in the front yard for a few days while he had a party for 54 people in the hangar.

Note insurance scales pretty linearly with hull value, so it's a matter of what you have it insured for, which it behooves you to be the actual value of the plane. Your instrument rating will help (but only if you're the only pilot or the others are also rated). My insurance didn't go down with my instrument rating because my wife is a co-owner and she is not interested in getting the rating.
 
Jim K said:
Don't forget about long term costs like engine replacement and avionics upgrades.
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And don't forget that those long term costs have a nasty way of becoming short term cost from time to time.
 
Turbo Lance here. For 120 hours a year, our annual all-in runs around $28,000. (Source: wife of all knowledge).

I’m very participatory in our annuals and service.
 
The good news is that if you fly yourself and passengers to places that you would otherwise fly commercially you can count the commercial costs as an offset, which in the total scheme of things doesn't usually make much of a dent. ;)
 
dbahn said:
The good news is that if you fly yourself and passengers to places that you would otherwise fly commercially you can count the commercial costs as an offset, which in the total scheme of things doesn't usually make much of a dent. ;)
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The math works better if you compare driving and make sure to include depreciation of the vehicle, hotels, and the hourly rate it would take to get me to drive somewhere.
 
Time for Neal's scary post....

I've never had $3000 for insurance in the Lance. Last year was $3300 and that was after I had hundreds of hours in type. First year was over $5000 but I had no IFR and no retract time. You have retract time so that will help. Hope you have your IFR.

My first few annuals were great. A few grand each. My last two annuals in total have run me near $40k.....so $20k each. Things break. SBs get done that weren't done before. Life sucks sometimes. And as was mentioned above, I'm about to shell out $70k for an engine that will take 2 years to get to me.

My '77 non-turbo Lance will run 13gph lean of peak and get me 148 ktas. If I run rich of peak at 15gph I can sometimes get 160. Usually it is 155 to 158. This all depends on altitude as well.

I find having an engine monitor to be non-negotiable. I want to know what my engine is doing. At 1900+ smoh, it isn't giving me any indications of wearing out except for oil consumption.

Lances generally have great useful loads. I have 1430 for mine, or 870 with full fuel.
 
Rgbeard said:
Turbo Lance here. For 120 hours a year, our annual all-in runs around $28,000. (Source: wife of all knowledge).

I’m very participatory in our annuals and service.
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yeah the ones we are looking at are non-turbo so that'll help cost i hope
 
TaylorSX16 said:
Thank you all for the replies so far!

I have found two so far on the market ranging from 160-190k, both low time on engines and airframe around 4000-6800 on airframe and I'm looking at flying around 150/year. One engine was about 937, the other was 532, props were good on time too, no more than 500 each. However, both have need of new panels but I'm not looking to go FULL glass for this. I'm thinking GTN650, Dual G5s or GI 275s, a digital engine monitor maybe from JPI (most ofmy friends brag about them) that can tell me everything including fuel burn and gal remaining if i can but I'm ok with sticking to the current old analog gauges if needed. Autopilot is going to be tricky but I'm thinking an S-TEC 50 since it can work with the GTN 650, I hear Garmin charges big time for theirs. Interior maybe, I'm not sure about that one but I hear Airtex is good.

I have more than 100 hrs on both retract and hp, could be 200 maybe by now ill have to tally the numbers one day soon. I found a place that is charging between 110-220 per month (sites ive learned are always far behind no matter how well updated they are) for hanger rent so far but yeah waiting lists do exist.

Insurance I expected could be around 3000/year. Figured annuals are 3-5k per year, knowing my run with CAP lately. Oil at 200-300 per 50 hour sounds about right too.

I never made up a spreadsheet before for anything of this, hence the thread lol
Click to expand...

It's always best to spend a little more for a plane that already has everything or most of the things you want already installed. Avionics upgrades rapidly get expensive- a good rule of thumb is take the cost of the hardware x2 for the installed price. If you're very lucky the resale value of your plane goes up maybe 1/4 of what you spent. There might not be one equipped the way you want for sale and you may just have to bite the bullet but it's something to consider.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
I've never had $3000 for insurance in the Lance. Last year was $3300 and that was after I had hundreds of hours in type.
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If you don't mind sharing, what are your liability insurance limits, i.e. coverage, per passenger, etc?
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
I've never had $3000 for insurance in the Lance. Last year was $3300 and that was after I had hundreds of hours in type. First year was over $5000 but I had no IFR and no retract time. You have retract time so that will help. Hope you have your IFR.
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Yeah, me neither. For some reason despite having nearly the same hours and a very similarly equipped plane as Neal, my insurance was $4416 for the year. 200K hull value, 1MM/250K limits. Private, Instrument, at time of renewal would've had around 750 total time and 450 time in type.
 
Jim K said:
Yeah, me neither. For some reason despite having nearly the same hours and a very similarly equipped plane as Neal, my insurance was $4416 for the year. 200K hull value, 1MM/250K limits. Private, Instrument, at time of renewal would've had around 750 total time and 450 time in type.
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YIKES! :eek2: I knew complex was higher, but that's 3X my premium on my C172N with $130K hull and $1MM smooth liability...
 
Jim K said:
Yeah, me neither. For some reason despite having nearly the same hours and a very similarly equipped plane as Neal, my insurance was $4416 for the year. 200K hull value, 1MM/250K limits. Private, Instrument, at time of renewal would've had around 750 total time and 450 time in type.
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I've only got 150k in hull value which is probably part of it but from what I've seen hull value is a pretty small part of the premium. I'd have to go back and look but I think my first year was about $4k with no retract time or time in type. Comparatively the Archer I was insuring before that was only about $700/year at that time. That might be part of it- I'd been an owner for several years prior and I've always gone through AOPA/Assured partners for insurance although not always the same underwriter. I can only guess how their algorithm works but I remember at least once an agent mentioning I was saving something by going through the same underwriter for several years. My hours are pretty closer to yours and I wouldn't think we live far enough apart for their to be a regional difference.
 
idahoflier said:
YIKES! :eek2: I knew complex was higher, but that's 3X my premium on my C172N with $130K hull and $1MM smooth liability...
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When I was plane shopping, insurance on a lance was almost exactly 2x a Cherokee six-300 with the same hull value. That was when I had zero retract time.
 
Rgbeard said:
You’re assuming the turbo costs lots?
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Thats from what I hear, unless its very little to no difference.

I don't have any time on turbos and I hear its a maintenance nightmare and high cost from every pilot and mechanic I know around here. Id love to know more honestly because id hate to find out its no difference in costs long term.
 
TaylorSX16 said:
Thats from what I hear, unless its very little to no difference.

I don't have any time on turbos and I hear its a maintenance nightmare and high cost from every pilot and mechanic I know around here. Id love to know more honestly because id hate to find out its no difference in costs long term.
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Don’t believe everything you read or hear unless you’re talking to an owner/operator. Turbo engines vary. Talk to a turbo 210 owner? Different story. Another example, the conti 4-cyl turbo used on the Arrow is well-known to be more maintenance-intensive, and the TIO-540, not so much.

When I look at my actual turbo-related costs, aside from an extra gallon an hour, it’s practically nil.
 
idahoflier said:
If you don't mind sharing, what are your liability insurance limits, i.e. coverage, per passenger, etc?
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Insured value: $175,000
Liability:
Occurrence: $1,000,000
Each person: $100,000
Medical:
Each passenger: $5,000
Each Occurrence: $30,000

Now I shall hear about how I am underinsured...

Keep in mind there are two of us on the insurance. My partner's time has dragged on our rates despite him being a CFI. He doesn't have as much time in type as I do. Which reminds me....I'm due for renewal and my broker owes me quotes.
 
My renewal quotes came in. They ranged from $3500 to $5300. My current underwriter is still on the low end. $200 increase this year. Better than my 30% increase my home homeowners insurance.
 
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