PoA Convoys: Major "bucket list" level trips

flyingcheesehead

flyingcheesehead

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So, I've thought about this in the past, and Troy and I had a short exchange about it on Facebook this morning - Taking a horde of PoA pilots and planes on some pretty major excursions. These would be one-time, extended trips due to the cost and length.

Troy's idea: Fly "to St. Maartin / St. Barts via Florida, the Bahamas, the Turks and Caicos, the Dominican Republic, and Puerto Rico. Longest overwater leg 227 nm, 97 minutes. Totally doable!"

My idea: Alaska. Maybe meet up in Spokane, make a couple of hops up to Ketchikan (Williams Lake, BC and Houston, BC maybe?), and then probably Yakutat... From there, wherever! Lots up there to discover, I'm sure. It's 1,078nm via that route from KSFF to PAYA, and then there's lots more territory to cover to see the whole state.

Just for the heck of it, I threw together a route to attempt to see lots of different spots in Alaska. From Yakutat - Anchorage, Talkeetna, Fairbanks, Deadhorse, Barrow, Nome, Unalakleet, King Salmon, Unalaska, Sand Point, Kodiak, Homer, back to Yakutat, then back through Whitehorse, Fort Nelson, Peace River, Calgary, and back into the US at Great Falls, MT. The full route from KSFF up all over Alaska and back down to KGTF is 5,844nm.

Now, since these are obviously NOT the kind of trips we can easily schedule together or afford, I'm thinking maybe we do one as a big group every 2nd or 3rd year, starting a couple of years from now (start saving your pennies!) which will leave us with lots of time to plan, save, buy airplanes if necessary (ahem Grant and Leslie ;)), and get ready.

So, what do you all think?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
So, I've thought about this in the past, and Troy and I had a short exchange about it on Facebook this morning - Taking a horde of PoA pilots and planes on some pretty major excursions. These would be one-time, extended trips due to the cost and length.

...

So, what do you all think?
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sounds like a great time, but expensive and hard to coordinate.

An alternative -- maybe leading up to the grand convoy -- would be a "progressive" convoy.... plan a [circular?] route to cover a lot of interesting places, where there is POA pilot interest. People can join and leave the convoy at any point along the route (and fly back home, or on a side trip, etc). Sort of a flying fly-in to multiple airports.

Post a collective blog with a lot of photos, etc.

How much could we collectively cover in 2 or 3 weeks? (A more ambitious goal would be to hit every state in the lower 48, not sure how long that would take for the group)

--david
 
flyingcheesehead said:
My idea: Alaska. Maybe meet up in Spokane, make a couple of hops up to Ketchikan (Williams Lake, BC and Houston, BC maybe?), and then probably Yakutat... From there, wherever! Lots up there to discover, I'm sure. It's 1,078nm via that route from KSFF to PAYA, and then there's lots more territory to cover to see the whole state.
So, what do you all think?
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I think you best re-study this.
 
nddons said:
You just want to meet Ariel Tweto, Kent. Just admit it!
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:rofl: Well, I'd certainly offer her a lift home on my airplane! :D (She's living in LA mostly nowadays, it seems... I've chatted with her some on Twitter.)

dparter said:
sounds like a great time, but expensive and hard to coordinate.
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Another reason why it should only be done every 2nd or 3rd year. ;)

An alternative -- maybe leading up to the grand convoy -- would be a "progressive" convoy.... plan a [circular?] route to cover a lot of interesting places, where there is POA pilot interest. People can join and leave the convoy at any point along the route (and fly back home, or on a side trip, etc). Sort of a flying fly-in to multiple airports.
Click to expand...

Now that's an interesting idea. We could do some sort of big circle around the ConUS or something... However, while that could be as expensive as the other trips mentioned, it doesn't necessarily have the bucket-list appeal of the long trips, though it does keep us within the safe confines of the "always a nearby Wal-Mart" comfort zone. :vomit:

How much could we collectively cover in 2 or 3 weeks? (A more ambitious goal would be to hit every state in the lower 48, not sure how long that would take for the group)
Click to expand...

http://www.operationfly.com/

Tom-D said:
I think you best re-study this.
Click to expand...

Okay, so I haven't studied it much yet, but... Why do you say this?
 
nddons said:
You just want to meet Ariel Tweto, Kent. Just admit it!
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Ariel Tweto is the only reason I took flying lessons (well after seeing her show about aviation).

It was between her and a pilot dressed as a chicken who flew passengers around and told them to get good grades in school.

I googled "become a pilot" and the intro flight was forty-nine bucks at an airport 20 minutes from my house which I didn't even know existed, and I thought, I can afford forty-nine bucks . . . !

The rest is history and completely un-affordable. Good luck to you guys on your trips around the world. I'll be happy, if it ever happens, with a PPL and a short flight to my hometown (San Francisco) at sunset.... flying over Alcatraz, Angel Island, etc.

Kimberly
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Ariel Tweto is the only reason I took flying lessons (well after seeing her show about aviation).

It was between her and a pilot dressed as a chicken who flew passengers around and told them to get good grades in school.

I googled "become a pilot" and the intro flight was forty-nine bucks at an airport 20 minutes from my house which I didn't even know existed, and I thought, I can afford forty-nine bucks . . . !

The rest is history and completely un-affordable. Good luck to you guys on your trips around the world. I'll be happy, if it ever happens, with a PPL and a short flight to my hometown (San Francisco) at sunset.... flying over Alcatraz, Angel Island, etc.

Kimberly
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What a great story, Kimberly. Good luck finishing your PPL!
 
flyingcheesehead said:
http://www.operationfly.com/



Okay, so I haven't studied it much yet, but... Why do you say this?
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Because the route you suggest is going to take you across the continental divide several times with no purpose.

When you go to Alaska go with the idea of doing some thing fun. because 99.5% of the tourist only see 2% of the state. Flying up give you the opportunity to see a lot more than that.
 
dparter said:
An alternative -- maybe leading up to the grand convoy -- would be a "progressive" convoy.... plan a [circular?] route to cover a lot of interesting places,
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Good idea, David. A suggestion is a grand destination for the grand caravan. Fly your circular route, picking up planes in trail as you go, and end up at the destination. KOSH springs to mind.... :):)

-Skip
 
dparter said:
An alternative -- maybe leading up to the grand convoy -- would be a "progressive" convoy.... plan a [circular?] route to cover a lot of interesting places, where there is POA pilot interest. People can join and leave the convoy at any point along the route (and fly back home, or on a side trip, etc). Sort of a flying fly-in to multiple airports.
Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwaygKjs2fI&feature=related

(Somebody had to do it)
 
Neat Idea Kent and Troy but Kaching Kaching, probably gonna cost way more coin than I can afford at this point in my life. I like the concept though. I suspect that POA could put together a group that participates in the Cayman Caravan or something like that. I think to make it more affordable you might want to consider more regional trips like POA flies New England or POA flies the Texas coast.
 
Tom-D said:
Because the route you suggest is going to take you across the continental divide several times with no purpose.
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Not really. I've gotta cross it once to get to Spokane in the first place, and I'm west of it all the way until the Fairbanks-Deadhorse leg. Theoretically I'm crossing it again on the Barrow-Nome leg, but since the MEF's are at 5300 feet or lower, probably not an issue. Then, there's one final crossing between Whitehorse and Fort Nelson.

Sure, I suppose we could start east of it, work our way up through Canada to the Arctic Ocean, head west to Deadhorse and Barrow and back around but the point is to see *Alaska*, not necessarily Canada. Besides, the continental divide is a hydrologic feature, so relatively meaningless when it comes to flying except as it relates to big terrain. Interestingly enough, the most worrisome legs terrain-wise are the initial one out of Spokane and the Yakutat-Whitehorse one, neither of which actually crosses the continental divide. However, every other leg on the trip, with some very minor deviations to stay on airways, can be flown at 10,000 feet or less by an IFR GPS-equipped airplane. Going to Northway instead of Yakutat prior to Whitehorse means that leg can be as well, which leaves only the Spokane - Williams Lake leg, a short part of which would have to be flown at 12,000 feet if IFR.

So... With some more detailed flight planning, an easily solvable problem, and one that will likely need to be not only solved once in the flight-planning stages of the trip, but probably several more along the way.

When you go to Alaska go with the idea of doing some thing fun. because 99.5% of the tourist only see 2% of the state. Flying up give you the opportunity to see a lot more than that.
Click to expand...

So... What should one do and see on a flying trip to Alaska? That's exactly the kind of thing I'm hoping to hear...

tonycondon said:
we could try to get a group discount on tickets to the Bitterwaser :) http://www.bitterwasser.com/bitterwasser_en.htm
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Now there's an idea... Fly to Africa! I'd also like to fly to Europe at some point.

Is there any way to get to Africa with relatively-normal GA airplanes (say, a 182) without going to Europe first?

Hmm. Natal, Rio Grande del Norte, Brazil to Freetown, Sierra Leone is 1571 nm. No go there. St. John's to Horta, Azores is 1182. Goose Bay - Narsarsuaq - Reykjavik has a long leg of only 674... So I guess Europe it is.

So many places to see, so little time...
 
nah i'll take an airline flight and then a bus trip or whatever it takes to get to the Bitterwasser. making a couple 1000 kilometer triangles and getting a palm tree planted will make up the difference.
 
I could probably make the St John's - Azores trip in the Comanche with no modifications.
 
A great idea in theory. However, will the speed of the caravan be the speed of the slowest ship? What will be done about VFR vs. IFR pilots? Are the guys with the IR going to sit out rainy days to keep the VFR guys company? We all have very ingrained habits when we fly. We won't all do things the same way, and I'll bet that many of us will be very insistent we do things out own way.

Hate to pour cold water on things, but I feel these are legitimate considerations.
 
steingar said:
A great idea in theory. However, will the speed of the caravan be the speed of the slowest ship? What will be done about VFR vs. IFR pilots? Are the guys with the IR going to sit out rainy days to keep the VFR guys company? We all have very ingrained habits when we fly. We won't all do things the same way, and I'll bet that many of us will be very insistent we do things out own way.
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Well, considering that these are at least partially sightseeing trips, I think we'd try to avoid IFR as much as possible. We'd probably also speak with as many airport managers as possible along the way and see what challenges may arise in their area, so we should have a pretty decent idea of what we'll run into so that each person can decide if it's within their comfort zone.

I've heard of other caravans where the fastest ship goes first, the slowest goes last - That way, they don't all arrive at the destination simultaneously. Given a long enough leg, though, you could reverse that order so that people still got there close enough to each other. I'm imagining that we'd probably stay in constant contact on 122.75. If we have, say, a 400nm leg and planes ranging from 100 knots to 160 knots, that's 2.5 to 4 hours... So let's say the slow birds depart first, and the fastest 1/2 hour later, the fastest ones would arrive, get things arranged with the FBO WRT length of stay, transportation, and whatever other needs, and by the time the slow planes land we're pretty much ready to go.

With trips like this where there's either large swaths of uninhabitable land or open water, there aren't too many options in terms of where to go, so you should have a good idea of whether you'll be able to make the trip in your airplane or not - You either go or you don't.

What kind of habits are you referring to that you think would be a problem?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
What kind of habits are you referring to that you think would be a problem?
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That's actually a really good question to which I have no really good answer. It just sticks in my craw. I have no good examples because I am ridiculously easy-going (even Mrs. Steingar says so). Most of the pilots I know are borderline OCD (if not full blown) which is, in my own opinion, a very very good thing. I wish I was more like them. Strict attention to detail is a really good thing for a pilot.

But when you are that detail oriented and insistent, I can see the opportunity for friction. I may be overly pessimistic though, lots of pilots do these kinds of caravans, so maybe I am grasping at straws.
 
Just put me in charge of the go/no-go decisions. :D

I don't do ice, I don't do TSRA, and I don't scud run with pointy rocks around.
 
I'd think you would want a more experienced guy in charge. :p
 
EdFred said:
Just put me in charge of the go/no-go decisions. :D

I don't do ice, I don't do TSRA, and I don't scud run with pointy rocks around.
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What is a scud run? I don't think I've learned about this yet in my training. I am here to learn.....
 
wabower said:
I'd think it would be pretty damn funny watching him try to get the flight plan into his iPad.
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It's already there.

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I would plan less places, more time at each. Typically what we do on long sportbike rides, which I have found works well for most long distance trips with different vehicles is this.

1. Divide into groups of like-minded people and like minded vehicles. For motorcycles, you've got your fast, medium, and slow groups. Slow people get left behind in the fast group and don't feel apart of it. Fast people get bored at the pace of the slow group.

2. Pick major checkpoints / time for the day and trip. Morning fill-up / breakfast. Lunch. Dinner spots. This keeps the whole group together, while allowing for flexibility.

For a trip, the fast group will take the longest route, cover the most miles, go off the beaten path, but in general will hit the major checkpoints in the same time. IFR pilots will hit more airports, cover more distance in faster planes, and be able to get back from a further spot when the SHTF.

Scale down to the slow group, which covers the least amount of miles, and pretty much goes from checkpoint to checkpoint in the shortest distance, but the same time as the fast group. VFR pilots in a slower plane, will end up traveling to only the major checkpoints. They won't get to see as much as the faster or IFR pilot, fewer airports, but they still get to travel with the group.

Since a x-country of this magnitude would stretch over weeks, the group wouldn't need to be together every day. Plan 3 days a stop. If the weathers not good enough for VFR, let the IFR guys travel to a airport off the route for sight-seeing. Hopefully within a few days, the VFR and IFR guys can meet up at the next major checkpoint.

IMHO
 
wabower said:
I'd think it would be pretty damn funny watching him try to get the flight plan into his iPad.
Click to expand...

I don't have an iPad. VFR flying out west, there is no point in flight planning that way. I had a 430 for that trip but I never had it on the map pages. Besides half the fun was, "Oh, what's up this valley?"
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
What is a scud run? I don't think I've learned about this yet in my training. I am here to learn.....
Click to expand...

Flying VFR in slightly better than IFR conditions, or maybe even IFR conditions were you not in class G airspace. I've done it in the flat lands when I've known where EVERYTHING is, but doing it in the mountains? Thank you, no.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
If we have, say, a 400nm leg and planes ranging from 100 knots to 160 knots, that's 2.5 to 4 hours... So let's say the slow birds depart first, and the fastest 1/2 hour later, the fastest ones would arrive, get things arranged with the FBO WRT length of stay, transportation, and whatever other needs, and by the time the slow planes land we're pretty much ready to go.
Click to expand...

Hopefully we don't all hit GPS direct and engage the autopilot, and run right up each other's six! ;-)

Yet another reason for the fast airplanes to leave first.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
What is a scud run? I don't think I've learned about this yet in my training. I am here to learn.....
Click to expand...

Flying low, near terrain, with low visibility or low ceilings, trying to stay VFR under the clouds... see the video below for how quickly it can go wrong, or create the need for more bodily function containage than was discussed in the pee thread.

 
TripleZ said:
I would plan less places, more time at each. Typically what we do on long sportbike rides, which I have found works well for most long distance trips with different vehicles is this.

1. Divide into groups of like-minded people and like minded vehicles. For motorcycles, you've got your fast, medium, and slow groups. Slow people get left behind in the fast group and don't feel apart of it. Fast people get bored at the pace of the slow group.

2. Pick major checkpoints / time for the day and trip. Morning fill-up / breakfast. Lunch. Dinner spots. This keeps the whole group together, while allowing for flexibility.

For a trip, the fast group will take the longest route, cover the most miles, go off the beaten path, but in general will hit the major checkpoints in the same time. IFR pilots will hit more airports, cover more distance in faster planes, and be able to get back from a further spot when the SHTF.

Scale down to the slow group, which covers the least amount of miles, and pretty much goes from checkpoint to checkpoint in the shortest distance, but the same time as the fast group. VFR pilots in a slower plane, will end up traveling to only the major checkpoints. They won't get to see as much as the faster or IFR pilot, fewer airports, but they still get to travel with the group.

Since a x-country of this magnitude would stretch over weeks, the group wouldn't need to be together every day. Plan 3 days a stop. If the weathers not good enough for VFR, let the IFR guys travel to a airport off the route for sight-seeing. Hopefully within a few days, the VFR and IFR guys can meet up at the next major checkpoint.

IMHO
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These are great suggestions. :yes:
 
I can give ya an example of "different strokes". I virtually never make fly-in pancake breakfasts because I just hate flying at the crack-ass of dawn.

I always joke that I'll come out for the fly-in Steak dinner. ;) Young Eagles? You get together at *what* time for your briefing? Yeah... I'll be sleeping then. Sorry! ;)

Some people just don't do mornings well. ;) Pilots as a population seem to be over-represented by early birds.

Maybe I'd be one too if my job weren't to fix computers in after-hours maintenance windows while you all sleep. My typical work day is "bankers hours" because at least two days a week I'm working after midnight. Just the glamorous IT life. ;)

If I were flying Commercially, I'd be that weird guy bidding all the night and standing-overnight stuff, too.

Make me fly directly East at dawn and I'll probably beat you with a Sectional chart. Ha. Hate that.

So that's one example. Some jackwagon is going to be up at 0430 making his breakfast and launching at 0600. I'd catch up later. Heh.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Flying low, near terrain, with low visibility or low ceilings, trying to stay VFR under the clouds... see the video below for how quickly it can go wrong, or create the need for more bodily function containage than was discussed in the pee thread.

Click to expand...

I heart the pee thread.

And thank you for teaching me what "scud run" is, glad I've never heard of it and no wonder I didn't learn about it in my training.

Kimberly
 
denverpilot said:
I can give ya an example of "different strokes". I virtually never make fly-in pancake breakfasts because I just hate flying at the crack-ass of dawn.

I always joke that I'll come out for the fly-in Steak dinner. ;) Young Eagles? You get together at *what* time for your briefing? Yeah... I'll be sleeping then. Sorry! ;)

Some people just don't do mornings well. ;) Pilots as a population seem to be over-represented by early birds.

Maybe I'd be one too if my job weren't to fix computers in after-hours maintenance windows while you all sleep. My typical work day is "bankers hours" because at least two days a week I'm working after midnight. Just the glamorous IT life. ;)

If I were flying Commercially, I'd be that weird guy bidding all the night and standing-overnight stuff, too.

Make me fly directly East at dawn and I'll probably beat you with a Sectional chart. Ha. Hate that.

So that's one example. Some jackwagon is going to be up at 0430 making his breakfast and launching at 0600. I'd catch up later. Heh.
Click to expand...


Turn that 182 into an RG and you can fly formation with me. I might start rolling out of bed at 9 if there's no alarm to wake me....MIGHT.
 
EdFred said:
Turn that 182 into an RG and you can fly formation with me. I might start rolling out of bed at 9 if there's no alarm to wake me....MIGHT.
Click to expand...

Slackers - the air's smooooother at dawn.
 
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