Please, just don't do this... (NTSB Factual, Turbo Lance Dec 2015)

denverpilot

denverpilot

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Factual is out on the Bakersfield Turbo Lance accident from 2015... I remember seeing the photos of the stuff being picked up from the field... then noticed the report is out...

(Sorry, if there's an original thread here on it, I didn't see it...)

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2017/05/piper-pa-32rt-300t-turbo-lance-ii.html

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...=20151220X04641&AKey=1&RType=Factual&IType=FA

And these ones just get me so frustrated...

- Co-owned Piper Lance, IFR equipped
- VFR pilot, 3 hours of simulated instrument time.
- Accepted IFR clearance in weather. (NO NO NO! We all know how this ends...)
- Decided to climb to 17,500 to avoid storm/tops (probably hypoxic now)
- Airplane, him, and his family, came out the bottom in multiple pieces.

He had enough time to make two Mayday calls to LA Center. Somewhere within the next minute, he ripped the wings off the aircraft. The audio recording is just sad. The other pilots in the area 40 or so miles away, apparently had ADS-B and watched his return disappear.

Folks... please... for the love of God, do NOT screw around with IMC as a VFR pilot... please.
I just don't know how many times we have to say it. A party in Vegas wasn't worth dying for or killing his whole family for.

Turn around, go back to better weather, land, and live to fly another day. PLEASE.
 
Instrument rated pilots die in IMC too. But this sounds like a murder/suicide considering circumstances.
 
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Ya, this flight was a terrible case of get there itis. If it's that important to be there. Book a commercial flight just in case. Southwest doesn't even charge you for a cancellation, no excuses. ESPECIALLY to Vegas
 
Rather be on the ground and wish I was in the air then vice versa. What I didn't get about that crash is he had enough time and money presumably to be IFR rated... so why he never got his ticket I don't understand?? Also, 17,5 is pretty high up without O2...
 
Sounds like the real moral to this one is not to fool around with TCU, regardless of what ratings you have. (Not that going IFR without the rating is a good thing, but flying into a cloud with severe TB inside could happen to an instrument rated pilot too.)
 
I had to have this chat with my CFI this morning. Told me about an incident where he blew the IMSAFE checklist big time. He got away with it, but might not next time. Be safe all.
 
If I remember correctly, @Palmpilot said in another thread that he either knew the pilot or knew of pilot. Tagging to get his attention.
 
denverpilot said:
Folks... please... for the love of God, do NOT screw around with IMC as a VFR pilot... please.
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And please don't screw around in hard IMC as an IFR rated pilot, flying a bugsmasher either...there's still limits to abide by.
 
Ryanb said:
And please don't screw around in hard IMC as an IFR rated pilot, flying a bugsmasher either...there's still limits to abide by.
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Yes, it depends on the IMC (and on one's skills, of course). There's "hard IMC" that's essentially benign... meaning poor vis and/or low ceilings but no ice or thunder and not a lot of wind... and then there's this stuff. :(
 
asicer said:
If I remember correctly, @Palmpilot said in another thread that he either knew the pilot or knew of pilot. Tagging to get his attention.
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He was a CAP member in San Jose. Palmpilot was in the same squadron and knew him. I knew OF him (I'm in a different nearby squadron). Though it's pretty common for nearby squadron pilots to meet each other at exercises and events, I never met him.

Please be respectful. There are still a lot of folks in CAP upset about that accident.
 
I probably missed where it explained it, but what caused his wings to detach from the frame? Spin? Overspeed?
 
orange said:
I probably missed where it explained it, but what caused his wings to detach from the frame? Spin? Overspeed?
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Over stressed the airframe I'd imagine.
 
MAKG1 said:
He was a CAP member in San Jose. Palmpilot was in the same squadron and knew him. I knew OF him (I'm in a different nearby squadron). Though it's pretty common for nearby squadron pilots to meet each other at exercises and events, I never met him.

Please be respectful. There are still a lot of folks in CAP upset about that accident.
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I can imagine.

orange said:
I probably missed where it explained it, but what caused his wings to detach from the frame? Spin? Overspeed?
Click to expand...

You always have to read between the lines a little in the final report, but if you know a little metallurgy, or even just NTSB-speak, yeah... structural failure in flight.

They kinda piece the story together for you with the aircraft radar plot info, and the vertical speed, and then they mention they found all the control connection cables broken and unwound consistent with the same locations as fracture points of the airframe.

Sometimes they come out and say it, sometimes they stick to only the facts. The good investigators stick to the facts, but paint the whole picture with it.
 
denverpilot said:
Factual is out on the Bakersfield Turbo Lance accident from 2015... I remember seeing the photos of the stuff being picked up from the field... then noticed the report is out...

(Sorry, if there's an original thread here on it, I didn't see it...)

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2017/05/piper-pa-32rt-300t-turbo-lance-ii.html

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...=20151220X04641&AKey=1&RType=Factual&IType=FA

And these ones just get me so frustrated...

- Co-owned Piper Lance, IFR equipped
- VFR pilot, 3 hours of simulated instrument time.
- Accepted IFR clearance in weather. (NO NO NO! We all know how this ends...)
- Decided to climb to 17,500 to avoid storm/tops (probably hypoxic now)
- Airplane, him, and his family, came out the bottom in multiple pieces.

He had enough time to make two Mayday calls to LA Center. Somewhere within the next minute, he ripped the wings off the aircraft. The audio recording is just sad. The other pilots in the area 40 or so miles away, apparently had ADS-B and watched his return disappear.

Folks... please... for the love of God, do NOT screw around with IMC as a VFR pilot... please.
I just don't know how many times we have to say it. A party in Vegas wasn't worth dying for or killing his whole family for.

Turn around, go back to better weather, land, and live to fly another day. PLEASE.
Click to expand...

I am a firm believer in chain of events for accidents and there is a mile long worth of chain on this one probably going back to his primary training.
 
Who has the balls to accept an IFR clearance if you're a VFR pilot having only three hours under the hood?
This poor family
 
Clip4 said:
I am a firm believer in chain of events for accidents and there is a mile long worth of chain on this one probably going back to his primary training.
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At 250hrs I wouldn't have thought to bring up his primary training, I mean you could go all the way back to bed wetting as a child and his relation with his mother too, just don't think that and what occurred at this stage in his flying have much in common. Even really bad CFIs tend to have their students avoid IMC, heck even plenty of CFIIs teaching IFR who avoid IMC.

Guy probably ended up punching some clouds on his way to 256hrs, nothing happened, got access to a somewhat we'll equipped plane, got in a bad spot, tried to punch through and it didn't have a good outcome.
 
orange said:
I probably missed where it explained it, but what caused his wings to detach from the frame? Spin? Overspeed?
Click to expand...
Spins themselves don't stress airframes...it's the recovery that builds up speed before or during the pullout that causes airframe stress.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Spins themselves don't stress airframes...it's the recovery that builds up speed before or during the pullout that causes airframe stress.
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James331 said:
At 250hrs I wouldn't have thought to bring up his primary training, I mean you could go all the way back to bed wetting as a child and his relation with his mother too, just don't think that and what occurred at this stage in his flying have much in common. Even really bad CFIs tend to have their students avoid IMC, heck even plenty of CFIIs teaching IFR who avoid IMC.

Guy probably ended up punching some clouds on his way to 256hrs, nothing happened, got access to a somewhat we'll equipped plane, got in a bad spot, tried to punch through and it didn't have a good outcome.
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Had his primary CFI effectively stressed the rates of IMC accidents with non rated pilots and that poking around in IMC without a Inst Rating is like playing Russian Roulette, this accident may not have happened.

Who ever was insuring the turbo Lance to a VFR pilot wasn't too smart either.
 
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Clip4 said:
Had his primary CFI effectively stressed the rates of IMC accidents with non rated pilots and that poking around in IMC without a Inst Rating is like playing Russian Roulette, this accident may not have happened.

Who ever was insuring a turbo Lance to a VFR pilot wasn't too smart either.
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Maybe his CFI did stress it. Were you there?

And what are you talking about regarding insurance? Rates are generally higher for those without their instrument rating... but the insurance company doesn't care what kind of aircraft it is. So no Lance should be insured to anyone without an instrument rating?
 
ircphoenix said:
Maybe his CFI did stress it. Were you there?

And what are you talking about regarding insurance? Rates are generally higher for those without their instrument rating... but the insurance company doesn't care what kind of aircraft it is. So no Lance should be insured to anyone without an instrument rating?
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No it shouldn't and neither should a SR22, Mooneys, and a host of other HP/complex singles.

And here the part that is really telling, this pilot did HP/Complex training with somebody. And probably completed at least one flight review with somebody, and did not have a single hour of instrument training other than the minimum 3 hours he needed for his private certificate. So when he got into an unusual attitude in a real HP/Complex aircraft, even if he flew into IMC accidentally, he was screwed.
 
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I think insurance played a even smaller role in this than his primary instruction did, doubt he would have been like, MAN I'd totally go VFR IMC right now, but don't have insurance.

THE factor was HIS CHOICE, and HIS JUDGEMENT, two things you can't regulate or change, those come from within, or after a lesson is learned the hard way, presuming you survive.
 
ircphoenix said:
Glad clip ain't an actuary. Nothing would be insured to anyone, ever.

No Class A commercial license? No Prius for you!
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ROFLMAO... those low rolling resistance tires are far too complex for the average driver, especially when they choose to drive them over a mountain pass in a blizzard. :)

(Autocorrect tried to change "mountain pass" to "moist son", good god what has gotten into my autocorrect in the last 48 hours?! Maybe I shouldn't be insured to operate an iPad.)
 
My God, the number of horrible decisions here is so hard to comprehend.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Spins themselves don't stress airframes...it's the recovery that builds up speed before or during the pullout that causes airframe stress.
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I read somewhere advice against pulling at all in the recovery, since the speed is likely out of control and pulling could put you into a loop or break stuff. Leveling wings should put you back into a lift situation where it will be returning to trimmed speed and horizontal flight path. I can't find the article but this one has similar advice regarding a gentler recovery method:
https://www.avweb.com/news/airman/184306-1.html

recovery discussion is towards the bottom of the article
 
George Mohr said:
My God, the number of horrible decisions here is so hard to comprehend.
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I know. I think it's simpler than that, though. I think the decision "we are going to Las Vegas" was the driver.

I always try to think of long VFR cross countries as, "We are going to TRY to go to Las Vegas" and leave the answer up to the enroute weather, if there's stuff between here and there.
 
exncsurfer said:
I read somewhere advice against pulling at all in the recovery, since the speed is likely out of control and pulling could put you into a loop or break stuff. Leveling wings should put you back into a lift situation where it will be returning to trimmed speed and horizontal flight path. I can't find the article but this one has similar advice regarding a gentler recovery method:
https://www.avweb.com/news/airman/184306-1.html
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You're referring to a spiral, not a spin...very different maneuvers.
 
Inside a thunderstorm, not sure it matters if it started with a stall/spin/recovery/dive, or a death spiral, even continuous moderate turbulence will make you wish you'd decided not to go flying that day.

Severe, true severe, by definition, means you're not in control of the situation anymore, anyway.

Easy control inputs and try to maintain some semblance of "level" without fighting the vertical changes much at all, you might survive it.

Doing that on gauges? Tough. Real tough. Like, "most people aren't going to survive it" levels of tough.

The few who've had to do it and survived, all say "never again" and have that a hundred yard stare in their eye when they're talking about it.
 
James331 said:
I think insurance played a even smaller role in this than his primary instruction did, doubt he would have been like, MAN I'd totally go VFR IMC right now, but don't have insurance.

THE factor was HIS CHOICE, and HIS JUDGEMENT, two things you can't regulate or change, those come from within, or after a lesson is learned the hard way, presuming you survive.
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True, but without the insurance it most cases he wasn't going to finance the plane either.
 
Clip4 said:
True, but without the insurance it most cases he wasn't going to finance the plane either.
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Who said it was financed.

Lots of folks don't go that route


Plus lowering freedom has historically never increased "saftey".
 
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James331 said:
Who said it was financed.

Lots of folks don't go that route


Plus lowering freedom has historically never increased "saftey".
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You are probably correct is we chose to disregard several decades of motor vehicle data.
 
A VFR pilot can fly a Boeing 777 if he owns it. Same applies to any other plane.
 
Did a quick read. . .no way to really know what happened, is there? Probably, probably, it's as it seems - he wasn't prepared to fly the airplane IMC. Pulled it apart in a loss of control scenario. Could, could have been other, more unlikely causes, of course. . .

I was driving a 1995 Neon one fall evening, urban road, two lanes each way, busy-ish time of day. And the driver-side airbag fired - deployed, as they say. Blew my left hand into the windshield, which it broke (my watch actually took the impact - the windshield cracked). Slightly dislocated my elbow, blew out the driver and front passenger windows, and hurled the vents thru the car. I didn't see the bag deploy, but I knew what happened right away.

I served to the left, but grabbed the wheel before going head-on into the opposing traffic. Otherwise, it would have been "Neon driver loses control, causes head-on crash". What would the investigator see? He'd expect the airbags to be deployed, right? If I was killed, or couldn't remember, who is to say?

Anyway, cops pulled up, went looking under the car for a deer or a dog, anything to explain what happened. Chrysler looked into it, but "stood mute", and the insurance company took the hit. NHTSA wasn't interested. Weird things happen now and then. . .
 
Clip4 said:
True, but without the insurance it most cases he wasn't going to finance the plane either.
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You guys need to learn to read. It wasn't even HIS plane! It was a club plane that he wasn't a member of and was somehow insured to fly.
 
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