Plasma? LCD?? Plasma???? LCD??????

bbchien said:
When our 42" Viewsonic Plasma died after two attempts at resuscitation (~6 years old), we replaced it with a 54" LCD. It is essential that you get the 120 Hz or 240Hz refresh rates, 60 Hz on an LCD just doesn't cut if for motion. Plasmas, on the other hand are very very fast. LCDs are not.

The blacks are just incredible on the LCD sets. And I can't tell you if this is plasma vs LCD or just 6 year younger tech- the ViewSonic was 102 pounds. The Toshiba is 68 pounds. Much more civil for wall mounting....
Click to expand...

AFAIK, refresh rates don't apply to DLP or Plasma. My 37" Sharp AQUOS LCD is, I think, 60 HZ and it's fine, but I don't watch a lot of sports.

If I was buying new today I'd probably still go for a 55"-60"+ Panasonic Plasma because I can get a pretty good EDP deal, but $2K + is in not in my cards for a while.

The only problem with Plasma being it might not be bright enough for my current sunny living room. For the home theater rec room it's ideal.

Anyway, this DLP is an impulse stop gap for me as above...just to hold me for a year or two or three like with me buying 10 year old cars with 140,000-180,000 miles on them to last me a year or two.... :D ...one of which is only now for sale after over 3 years.

It will p* me off if I have to buy more than the spare lamp. I see lamps are $150.
 
bbchien said:
When our 42" Viewsonic Plasma died after two attempts at resuscitation (~6 years old), we replaced it with a 54" LCD. It is essential that you get the 120 Hz or 240Hz refresh rates, 60 Hz on an LCD just doesn't cut if for motion. Plasmas, on the other hand are very very fast. LCDs are not.

The blacks are just incredible on the LCD sets. And I can't tell you if this is plasma vs LCD or just 6 year younger tech- the ViewSonic was 102 pounds. The Toshiba is 68 pounds. Much more civil for wall mounting....
Click to expand...

Bruce, I respectfully disagree with the 120hz. On the 46" Samsung I just bought, it was an extra $250. I really couldn't justify it at all. I see no "tracers" or whatever the little geeky kid called them. If I wanted 120hz, I would have settled for a 42". I say go bigger and 60hz is fine

Mike
 
michael Killacky said:
Bruce, I respectfully disagree with the 120hz. On the 46" Samsung I just bought, it was an extra $250. I really couldn't justify it at all. I see no "tracers" or whatever the little geeky kid called them. If I wanted 120hz, I would have settled for a 42". I say go bigger and 60hz is fine

Mike
Click to expand...
Oooh. A lotta ballet is seen on mine by a discriminating ballerina. Sigh.
 
LCD 120Hz+ and get a high contrast ratio.

I can tell the difference in watching between 60 and 120. Go with the 120.
 
mikea said:
Hey guys,

What do you think about 5 year old technology?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=190303625927

A 56" 720P Samsung DLP.

http://reviews.cnet.com/projection-tvs/samsung-hl-p5663w/4505-6484_7-30998661.html?tag=rnav

For my purposes it would solve my craving for bigger screen for a while. My objections about lamps is handled slightly because he has a spare.

You know what I know about myself that makes we want to grow up and forget about it? I'd notice the poor SD performance. I would move my 37" 1080P LCD to the bedroom as planned and THAT would make me have to get another HD TiVo. :frown2: :D I wanna wait until the "Series 4" TiVo maybe next year.

Talk me out of this. :redface:
Click to expand...

Mike, unless you could get it very cheaply (and how would you get it home? These things are BIG), I'd say, "No."

I have a DLP, and it was great for when I got it, but it needs a darker room, and you'll grow weary of the drone from the obligatory cooling fan.

$300, $400 max, maybe; more? Nah.
 
SCCutler said:
Mike, unless you could get it very cheaply (and how would you get it home? These things are BIG), I'd say, "No."

I have a DLP, and it was great for when I got it, but it needs a darker room, and you'll grow weary of the drone from the obligatory cooling fan.

$300, $400 max, maybe; more? Nah.
Click to expand...

DLPs are mostly empty space. This one is 90 pounds. I'd drive the van out to get it.

I'm gonna pass unless he accepts my lowball offer.
 
michael Killacky said:
Bruce, I respectfully disagree with the 120hz. On the 46" Samsung I just bought, it was an extra $250. I really couldn't justify it at all. I see no "tracers" or whatever the little geeky kid called them. If I wanted 120hz, I would have settled for a 42". I say go bigger and 60hz is fine

Mike
Click to expand...

Mike, it's not so much the "tracers" at 60 Hz vs. 120, but it's the ratio of LCD screen update to source material FPS. Movies (film) are shot at 24 fps and 24 doesn't divide equally into 60, so motion may not be smooth as the devices try to interpolate the frames from the source to the display. You'll notice it more on scenes where the camera is panning. But 24 goes into 120 exactly 5 times, so you'll end up with a much better movie experience and film buffs really like it. This all mainly applies to DVD's that can supply 24p source material. Bets would probably be off with camcorders, as few consumer models shoot at that speed.

More than you ever wanted to know here.
 
Someone school me on the effects of video games on LCD's and Plasmas.

I... uhhh... have a... uhhh... friend... yeah.. friend.. that still messes around with PS2. ;)

Oh.. and my uhhh.. friend... said to ask if there are any SOCOM'ers on PoA. :D
 
SCCutler said:
Mike, unless you could get it very cheaply (and how would you get it home? These things are BIG), I'd say, "No."

I have a DLP, and it was great for when I got it, but it needs a darker room, and you'll grow weary of the drone from the obligatory cooling fan.

$300, $400 max, maybe; more? Nah.
Click to expand...

What cooling fan? Or are my ears going bad? :D I don't hear a fan on my DLP set.
 
Ghery said:
What cooling fan? Or are my ears going bad? :D I don't hear a fan on my DLP set.
Click to expand...

Man alive, I sure wish I couldn't on mine; it's a little hurricane.
 
Okay, I'm going to pull a Scott and resurrect this thread. For Christmas this year, Leslie said that we can go to $1000 for up to a 46 or 47" HDTV, or a little more if it's really worth it :). This will be replacing my inherited 37" CRT. The screen is about 12' from the main TV watching chair. I'm leaning toward an LCD, maybe the low-end Sony Bravia or an LG. Of course, then we'll need to upgrade the Tivo to an HD-capable model, and get a Blu-Ray player. :)

Bruce, a number of sources seem to say that the 120Hz isn't great for film-based sources, which seems to contradict what you and Rich are saying. Though I'd prefer to have a TV that gives me the choice to one that doesn't!
 
We bought a Samsung 50" plasma a few weeks ago, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another one. The picture quality is great. The "burn-in" really isn't an issue, you can get a little screen-retention if you have a static image on for a long time, but it goes away.

For me, considering the price difference, plasma is a better value right now (at least in the 50"+ range)
 
jesse said:
We bought a Samsung 50" plasma a few weeks ago, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another one. The picture quality is great. The "burn-in" really isn't an issue, you can get a little screen-retention if you have a static image on for a long time, but it goes away.

For me, considering the price difference, plasma is a better value right now (at least in the 50"+ range)
Click to expand...
You're getting discernible burn-in (screen retention) after only a few weeks? I thought that took months, if not years!

Doesn't matter that much to me, though, because I've got a nice large 6' wide window with no curtains on the 2nd floor overlooking where this TV is going to be, so the direct sunlight pretty much precludes going with plasma.
 
gprellwitz said:
Bruce, a number of sources seem to say that the 120Hz isn't great for film-based sources, which seems to contradict what you and Rich are saying. Though I'd prefer to have a TV that gives me the choice to one that doesn't!
Click to expand...


I too am looking at upgrading from my 34" HDTV CRT. I'm leaning
toward a 46" LCD, with 240Hz.

But what is this about 120Hz not being good for film-based sources?
 
Bob Noel said:
But what is this about 120Hz not being good for film-based sources?
Click to expand...
You still can get motion blur with the 120Hz refresh rate. Film uses 24 frames per second so even the 120HZ is not sufficient to eliminate motion blur and so 120Hz display also use a software smoothing process that can be noticeable in that it can affect quality by leaving a display artifact on for a very brief period of time. The term that will get thrown about is called judder.

Honestly, this strikes me as what the audiophile do with sound. If you are running a Blue-Ray output then you might see some slight improvement with 240Hz refresh over the processed 120Hz refresh rate. But I think for most people it is not all that noticeable. But if you get a salesman talking to you he can put you into the higher cost, higher refresh rate display so that you can avoid the embarrassment of having bought the 120Hz display while your neighbor got the 240Hz one.
 
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jesse said:
We bought a Samsung 50" plasma a few weeks ago, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another one. The picture quality is great. The "burn-in" really isn't an issue, you can get a little screen-retention if you have a static image on for a long time, but it goes away.

For me, considering the price difference, plasma is a better value right now (at least in the 50"+ range)
Click to expand...

We just snagged a 42" Samsung plasma for our rec room for $609 from Nebraska Furniture Mart. Great TV for a great price. It's "only" 720p, but the local channels transmit 720p or 1080i anyway, so it's not like you're giving anything up.

No motion blur issues with plasma sets, but like Scott said, you don't want direct sunlight on the screen.


Trapper John
 
smigaldi said:
You still can get motion blur with the 120Hz refresh rate. Film uses 24 frames per second so even the 120HZ is not sufficient to eliminate motion blur and so 120Hz display also use a software smoothing process that can be noticeable in that it can affect quality by leaving a display artifact on for a very brief period of time. The term that will get thrown about is called judder.

Honestly, this strikes me as what the audiophile do with sound. If you are running a Blue-Ray output then you might see some slight improvement with 240Hz refresh over the processed 120Hz refresh rate. But I think for most people it is not all that noticeable. But if you get a salesman talking to you he can put you into the higher cost, higher refresh rate display so that you can avoid the embarrassment of having bought the 120Hz display while your neighbor got the 240Hz one.
Click to expand...

So, this is the pretty much the same thing as 3:2 pulldown (or insert
whatever jargon you want) that I have now with my CRT, right?

I'm more concerned with watching football and hockey. Motion blur
is a non-issue on my CRT, but was quite noticable on a hotel's 50"
LCD TV. But I doubt the hotel had a higher end LCD TV.

I'd consider Plasma, but a 46" TV is about the biggest I should
put in the room.
 
How safe is it to hang a large flat screen on the wall? Do most folks put them on regular stands? I'm thinking 50-55 inches here...
 
woodstock said:
How safe is it to hang a large flat screen on the wall? Do most folks put them on regular stands? I'm thinking 50-55 inches here...
Click to expand...

Large flat screens don't weigh much, around 50" they seem to weigh
about 50lbs or so. There are plenty of wall mounts available that
can handle up to 100 lbs. Screw the mount into wall studs and you
should be fine. Caveat: I'm not a structural engineer.

If I finally pull the trigger on a larger TV I'll put in on the stand I
have, but that's only because I already have it and it's strong enough
to handle a 200lb CRT HDTV. Otherwise, I'll used a wall mount.
 
Very safe...just get a mount with weight rating to handle the unit and follow the instructions...

The rub is sometimes you can't get it centered just the way you like it in a room due to the wall framing layout. Look at the mount documentation to see if it gives the ability to move the mount any distance horizontally...this may come in handy.

woodstock said:
How safe is it to hang a large flat screen on
the wall? Do most folks put them on regular stands? I'm thinking 50-55 inches here...
Click to expand...
 
gprellwitz said:
For Christmas this year, Leslie said that we can go to $1000 for up to a 46 or 47" HDTV, or a little more if it's really worth it :). This will be replacing my inherited 37" CRT. The screen is about 12' from the main TV watching chair.
Click to expand...

Sam's Club broke the 50" / $1k LCD bubble last week (a Phillips) which looked pretty good compared to the others in the store. That would suit your viewing distance perfectly.
 
Kelvin said:
Very safe...just get a mount with weight rating to handle the unit and follow the instructions...

The rub is sometimes you can't get it centered just the way you like it in a room due to the wall framing layout. Look at the mount documentation to see if it gives the ability to move the mount any distance horizontally...this may come in handy.
Click to expand...

Thanks Kelvin and Bob.

I'm not doing this anytime soon - the 46 inch rear projection (4 yrs old) is fine so far, but the day will come when it will stop working. When I move the screen closer to the wall I'll need something bigger than 46 inches. Currently I'd say the screen sits 3 feet from the wall behind it due to the behemoth size of the TV itself.

On the other hand, a nice stand (I'm thinking something made of wood, along the lines of a buffet that is not so tall) would be a nice place to hide the stereo/DVDs, though, too.

It's academic for the time being.
 
Bob Noel said:
So, this is the pretty much the same thing as 3:2 pulldown (or insert
whatever jargon you want) that I have now with my CRT, right?

I'm more concerned with watching football and hockey. Motion blur
is a non-issue on my CRT, but was quite noticable on a hotel's 50"
LCD TV. But I doubt the hotel had a higher end LCD TV.

I'd consider Plasma, but a 46" TV is about the biggest I should
put in the room.
Click to expand...
3:2 pull down is exactly what this is. Personally I would be more concerned with viewing angle, which for most people is the thing they notice most.
 
gprellwitz said:
You're getting discernible burn-in (screen retention) after only a few weeks? I thought that took months, if not years!

Doesn't matter that much to me, though, because I've got a nice large 6' wide window with no curtains on the 2nd floor overlooking where this TV is going to be, so the direct sunlight pretty much precludes going with plasma.
Click to expand...
Well, the screen retention really isn't a huge deal. For example, if you watch a movie with black bars, after the movie, you might be able to see where those black bars were (if you're looking at a light image) for about 10 minutes. You have to try to see it.

It sounds worse then it is. Once you see it happen and you see it go away you really don't worry about it.
 
smigaldi said:
You still can get motion blur with the 120Hz refresh rate. Film uses 24 frames per second so even the 120HZ is not sufficient to eliminate motion blur and so 120Hz display also use a software smoothing process that can be noticeable in that it can affect quality by leaving a display artifact on for a very brief period of time. The term that will get thrown about is called judder.

Honestly, this strikes me as what the audiophile do with sound. If you are running a Blue-Ray output then you might see some slight improvement with 240Hz refresh over the processed 120Hz refresh rate. But I think for most people it is not all that noticeable. But if you get a salesman talking to you he can put you into the higher cost, higher refresh rate display so that you can avoid the embarrassment of having bought the 120Hz display while your neighbor got the 240Hz one.
Click to expand...

Typical LCD technology has a motion blur issue due to the fact that each field image shows for a larger portion of the field time. There are methods being employed by the most recent designs such as stobing the backlight (LED backlights only) or displaying black (or just dimmer) images between normal fields. All of those techniques decrease the apparent brightness (and often contrast) of the result and therefore are generally user selectable and/or automatically turned off when the brightness is cranked up. And AFaIK the difference between otherwise identical LCD TVs with one rated for "240 Hz" and the other for "120 Hz" is not only minimally perceptible but also much less visible than the motion blur reduction methods I just described. Also FWIW, 120 Hz does eliminate the need for 322 pulldown when viewing movies recorded at 24 FPS but since the broadcast (or DVD) image sequence already has been converted to a 60 Hz field rate by the telecine converter, the video has to be "unconverted " from the 322 format in order to take advantage of the 120 Hz display rate and not all 120 Hz LCD TVs can do that AFaIK.

Hollywood film cameras normally capture 24 FPS and each image is displayed twice in the theater to provide a nearly flicker free 48 Hz image strobe rate. To display that with a conventional (USA) analog video at 60 Hz field 30 Hz frame rate the telecine converter takes four 24 Hz images and produces 10 60 Hz fields (5 interlaced frames) and this process introduced motion artifacts all by itself.
 
gismo said:
Also FWIW, 120 Hz does eliminate the need for 322 pulldown when viewing movies recorded at 24 FPS but since the broadcast (or DVD) image sequence already has been converted to a 60 Hz field rate by the telecine converter, the video has to be "unconverted " from the 322 format in order to take advantage of the 120 Hz display rate and not all 120 Hz LCD TVs can do that AFaIK.

Hollywood film cameras normally capture 24 FPS and each image is displayed twice in the theater to provide a nearly flicker free 48 Hz image strobe rate. To display that with a conventional (USA) analog video at 60 Hz field 30 Hz frame rate the telecine converter takes four 24 Hz images and produces 10 60 Hz fields (5 interlaced frames) and this process introduced motion artifacts all by itself.
Click to expand...
That is unless the output of your video source knows that the monitor can handle 1080p/24fps and support a 5:5 pulldown, which most CE video devices do not seem to do, thus are still encoded for the 3:2 pulldown pattern.
 
FWIW, we just got a 46" Sony Bravia with 120Hz. It was on sale for less than $1000. Haven't even taken it out of the box yet, as I'm trying to deal with a wireless router problem.
 
Just picked up a 46" Samsung LED today. All I can say is wow...
 
woodstock said:
Be careful what you wish for with HD.

I saw a movie with a few aging stars on HD and wished I hadn't.
Click to expand...

I think the industry is still learning how to defocus, use makeup,
good lighting, post-production, etc etc etc. in order to make digital
HD more film-like.

One reason I've been reluctant to get a 46" TV is that I'm pretty
sure I don't want to see a two foot hight QB head bobbing on the
screen or a large image of a baseball player spitting and scratching.
 
AWACSEng said:
Just picked up a 46" Samsung LED today. All I can say is wow...
Click to expand...

As near as I can tell, these "LED" HDTVs are actually use LCD displays with LED backlighting. LED backlighting does offer some advantages such as extended contrast (but not on a pixel by pixel basis) and the ability to strobe the image to decrease apparent motion blur so it does seem like a worthwhile feature. But there is also such a thing as a true LED display in development which uses individual LEDs for each color on each pixel (a 1920x1080 LED display would have over 6 million LEDs and the circuitry to drive them) but I haven't seen any such products on the market yet.
 
Bob Noel said:
One reason I've been reluctant to get a 46" TV is that I'm pretty
sure I don't want to see a two foot hight QB head bobbing on the
screen or a large image of a baseball player spitting and scratching.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but pair that same TV up with a nice home theater system and an XBOX 360 and Halo 3 and you can just about feel the splatter of green alien gore when you cut loose with a plasma rife. :) A truly emmersive experience.
 
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