Planning for Pagosa Springs (PSO)

DrewG

DrewG

Pre-takeoff checklist
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DrewG
One of my cousins moved to Pagosa Springs, CO recently and would like me to pay a visit sometime. I've been playing around with planning this trip on a hypothetical level, although nothing is close to solid at this point.

I'd likely be making this trip from Stillwater, OK (SWO) in a 172M with a 160hp RAM air conversion. The early planning of the trip seems easy and I'd likely make a stop in Tucumcari, NM (TCC) to refresh and fuel up.

The latter part of the planning is a bit more difficult for me, though. I lack mountain flying training, but it looks like this wouldn't be too difficult of a journey if I flew the leg from TCC to PSO (via SAF, E14 and 24N) at 10,500. I've linked my initial planned route below, but have also considered the longer route through Albuquerque and around the San Pedro Mountains.

A web search revealed a video of one person making their first solo XC from Santa Fe to Pagosa Springs and onward to other destinations in a Remos GX, so I figure it can't be ALL that challenging in a 160HP 172 with the right planning. What tips or advice do you all have with regard to the route planning - or is this is a trip I shouldn't make without proper mountain training?

https://skyvector.com/?ll=36.21148239998879,-107.54168700724271&chart=301&zoom=4&fpl=N0115A105 KSWO IFI KTCC TCC V12 ACH V62 SAF E14 3615N10626W 24N KPSO
 
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As a Colorado pilot we almost always suggest some mountain training for going into high elevation airports. As you've surmised the route you've laid out presents no particular challenges for a good VFR day with calm winds. If you tried that route with 30 knot winds at you altitude you may have several unpleasant surprises. At the very least read Sparky's book on mountain flying and remember he died in a crash in the mountains. You might be motivated to stop in Sante Fe and spend an hour or two with an instructor. Or maybe do that in Pagosa along with some sightseeing in the area. The locals may not like the 160 hp though...
 
DrewG said:
Ah - good advice. Thanks!



I assume you mean this to be due to being under-powered?
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Some CFIs require at least 180 hp for a mountain check-out. That said the guys at Leadville trained in 160 hp 172s. They didn't fly much when it warmed up though.

And don't underestimate the Remos. They are a couple generations beyond a 172 in terms of efficiency.
 
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You'll be ok but don't load it with a lot of weight. Don't push the weather.
 
Fly in the morning. After you flew somewhere and did some mountain training the previous afternoon/morning.

I have very little mountain flying other than the Colorado Pilot Association course.

I would fly in the mountains in the morning, VFR, in my Bonanza.
 
And, before you go, listen to CW McCall sing "Wolf Creek Pass" (their run ends in Pagosa Springs).
 
DrewG said:
A web search revealed a video of one person making their first solo XC from Santa Fe to Pagosa Springs and onward to other destinations in a Remos GX, so I figure it can't be ALL that challenging in a 160HP 172 with the right planning. What tips or advice do you all have with regard to the route planning - or is this is a trip I shouldn't make without proper mountain training?

https://skyvector.com/?ll=36.21148239998879,-107.54168700724271&chart=301&zoom=4&fpl=N0115A105 KSWO IFI KTCC TCC V12 ACH V62 SAF E14 3615N10626W 24N KPSO
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Change that to "the right planning, knowledge and skill" and you'd have it right. Withou the knowledge and skill, you might join with other pilots who unfortunately thought the same. Even in airplanes substantially more powerful than yours.

So how much experience do you have with the flow of wind and weather in (even relatively low) mountainous terrain? How about with density altitudes high enough that leaning for takeoff and landing is essential, even in flat areas? What do you think your landing and takeoff profile will look like? How much wind aloft will become dangerous? Where might you encounter downdrafts exceeding you climb capabilities? Will you know where they are likely, how to avoid them, and what to do when you encounter them? How high do you usually fly at cruise? Is it as high as the density altitude will be on the ground at Pagosa? That's just a short sample.

Clark gave some excellent comments.

BTW, I do like the route.
 
Nothing to add other than fly when it's cool, smooth and low winds as others have said. Not a lot of margin in a Skyhawk for big up and down drafts.

Probably one of the most useful things for someone to see are these...

Going down at 1000 fpm with the ASI at Vy. (Gets your attention right now the first time you see that! Have an "out"? Better take it...)

The faster groundspeed and seemingly flatter profile of the takeoff climb and landing.

The above questions are excellent.

A hint... Look at your POH for cruise climb performance at high altitudes in fpm. Expect that after a takeoff or rejected landing... DA equals performance.

Many people are quite weirded out at seeing their first 200 fpm departure and using 3000' of runway or more to lift off...

Run some takeoff and landing numbers at temps for Pagosa gotten off the Internet for this time of year... tack on 10F more and see how they change.
 
Looking at the route from KSAF to KPSO, there aren't any mountain passes, it's just higher terrain than you're used to. I'd stick with your route rather than the ABQ and around for one reason. If something happens, your're closer to other airports and highways.

Echoing every one else....fly in the morning. Of course this assumes VFR, light winds. Stop at KSAF and get a final weather check.
 
murphey said:
Looking at the route from KSAF to KPSO, there aren't any mountain passes, it's just higher terrain than you're used to. I'd stick with your route rather than the ABQ and around for one reason. If something happens, your're closer to other airports and highways.

Echoing every one else....fly in the morning. Of course this assumes VFR, light winds. Stop at KSAF and get a final weather check.
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Heck, Santa Fe is so cool, plan an overnight stay and continue in the morning. Might even get that mountain flying lesson.
 
I figured there was a lot to be considered, especially considering my lack of experience in higher terrain. I'm pretty familiar with the anemic performance provided at higher altitudes in this plane in higher DA temps. I cruised at 9,500 on my last XC on what is a high DA for my neck of the woods, and getting the last 1000 feet or so wasn't exactly what I'd call "quick." It was expected, but I know that's entirely different when taking off from an altitude from which I'd normally be cruising. That being said, a few of the questions posed by @midlifeflyer are ones I've pondered based on things I've read about mountain flying, but admittedly don't know all the answers to.

I'll certainly be running some numbers from the POH and using various temps found throughout the year in Pagosa.

I'm glad to know the route planned is favorable. I don't think I would have initially planned a stop in Santa Fe. Considering I'd be leaving OK in the early morning and would be getting to Santa Fe in the early part of the afternoon, it might be best to call it a day once there and wait until the next morning to tackle the last hour or so of the higher elevation leg. Of course, if the DA wasn't too high and the winds aloft weren't above about 15-20 knots, I might consider continuing. A mountain flying lesson does sound extremely beneficial in either Santa Fe or Pagosa, though.
 
DrewG said:
Considering I'd be leaving OK in the early morning and would be getting to Santa Fe in the early part of the afternoon, it might be best to call it a day once there and wait until the next morning to tackle the last hour or so of the higher elevation leg. Of course, if the DA wasn't too high and the winds aloft weren't above about 15-20 knots, I might consider continuing. A mountain flying lesson does sound extremely beneficial in either Santa Fe or Pagosa, though.
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I was actually quite serious about stopping in Santa Fe. If you haven't been there, it is a real treat. I've done that more than once when weather meant I could not continue on a flight. The FBO (although it may have changed hands since I was last there) has traditionally had a good line on a place to stay, even in the cool downtown area. Other than that, Hilton is probably the easiest place to get accommodations on short notice (did that more than once too).

Alternatively, if you are going to call it a day early because the mountain sun's effect on the terrain is tossing you around, even the big airport at Albuquerque is pretty easy to get in and out of and there are numerous options for an overnight stay if necessary. (Yeah, BTDT too; sometimes I think I have some kind for record for diversions :))

Beyond "what do you know and what can you do," the real point in mountain flying is to always consider potential outs and, as Sparky would put it, don't go beyond the point of no return.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I was actually quite serious about stopping in Santa Fe. If you haven't been there, it is a real treat. I've done that more than once when weather meant I could not continue on a flight. The FBO (although it may have changed hands since I was last there) has traditionally had a good line on a place to stay, even in the cool downtown area. Other than that, Hilton is probably the easiest place to get accommodations on short notice (did that more than once too).
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I've heard Santa Fe is quite a treat from a few folks. They do say that it's about the journey, not the destination, right? Since I'd most likely be flying with my girlfriend and maybe a kid or two, an overnight there would probably be a heck of a treat for everyone.
 
DrewG said:
What tips or advice do you all have with regard to the route planning - or is this is a trip I shouldn't make without proper mountain training?
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I fly into Pagosa Springs every winter to ski. As mountain destinations go, it's a relatively easy place to go. Having said that, your first exposure to a takeoff at 7, 8, 9000 feet density altitude can be eye-opening. If you'd like some moral support for your first experience at that, then I recommend stopping overnight in Santa Fe, and getting some ad hoc training from Paul D. at Sierra Aviation (505-474-0774).

I'm uncomfortable flying over terrain with poor emergency landing options. The leg that you've proposed from Santa Fe to Pagosa Springs goes over some pretty remote territory. I choose to head west from KSAF, and then sort of follow V68 north, staying to the west of the roughest terrain. NM Hwy 550 is a comforting sight below, and the Navajo Reservoir east of Farmington points the way to a nice valley that leads right to KPSO.

The FBO at Pagosa Springs is as friendly and helpful as you'll find anywhere. Enjoy the trip!
 
DrewG said:
I've heard Santa Fe is quite a treat from a few folks. They do say that it's about the journey, not the destination, right? Since I'd most likely be flying with my girlfriend and maybe a kid or two, an overnight there would probably be a heck of a treat for everyone.
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Santa Fe is definitely one of the nicer stops in that general area. Wind is currently gusting 22 there today, so probably not as nice as usual. Haha.

Don't expect too much interest from the tower folks if a coyote decides to chase you alongside the runway. Ha. Not kidding. Been there, done that.
 
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