Planning a fictitious XC...chime in

WannFly

WannFly

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Planning my first xc (solo), i am calling it fictitious since i am pre-solo :p. lets not get into how can i log this as long vs short xc etc. i will most certainly fly this route before with my CFI
...dont care about those at this point

i want to go from KFAR to KBRD. here is the route i am thinking.

disclaimer:
1. i will run this by my CFI
2. do not have AOA or chute
3. i will have flight following and active flight plan (rules of FBO, i would have done it anyway)

Option 1 >> my preferred
Route: 292.2 NM || ETE: 2:37

Capture.PNG

Benefits:

* lots of way points to ensure i am going the right direction, much easier to spot and match to sectional than lake etc

* if something happens, i have a field to land not too far
* i can get much better/accurate weather from ATIS/ASOS since i am in the vicinity of the field

Option 2: Direct. 230.2 NM | ETE 2:03

Capture1.PNG

* still have a lot of fields around me if i have to land
* similar if not exact weather benefit

so here is my thought, this may be a case where both option 1 and option 2 have similar benefits, but in general for longer xc when i am still new (what is new? 100 hrs..500 hrs?), i am thinking option 1 is much better than punching a Direct To.

thoughts?
 
Direct in this case- no terrain issues and no airspace issues. If something happens, any field will work and an airfield isn't always your best option at that point.

Here was my long XC. Shiatty terrain and long stretches of nothin'

And severe turbulence at KHII and a missing gas cap upon landing.


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Let's simplify your plan--- KFAR 16D KBRD

Pick out some good visual waypoints along the way and voila.... you should still have ample access to ASOS reports if desired and good diversion options.


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Tampico Trauma said:
Let's simplify your plan--- KFAR 16D KBRD

Pick out some good visual waypoints along the way and voila.... you should still have ample access to ASOS reports if desired and good diversion options.
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thats interesting, same benefits ...
 
My CFI didn't let me choose where to go for any of my X-C's, except one of the duals. He picked airports that weren't much greater than the minimum distance required. These were pretty much the standard airports that all students at this flight school were assigned, regardless of CFI. Are you sure your CFI won't do the same?
 
WannFly said:
why? trying to understand the rationale here... not so much benefit using option 2?
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Because it's just not practical for an initial cross country flight. The purpose of the 50nm XC is to introduce the student to cross country flying and flight planning. Trying to navigate to 12 different airport/checkpoints on a 300nm flight isn't very rational and I can't imagine a CFI endorsing that.

What seems more probable would be KFAR DTL KPKD and back.
 
MassPilot said:
My CFI didn't let me choose where to go for any of my X-C's, except one of the duals. He picked airports that weren't much greater than the minimum distance required. These were pretty much the standard airports that all students at this flight school were assigned, regardless of CFI. Are you sure your CFI won't do the same?
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great point and i am not sure if THIS is the one that my school will let me. just planning for the sake of planning, may be after PPL or when they let me loose on unsupervised solo without restrictions (dont know if its a thing or not). its gorgeous outside wit 6kt wind, my flight is not for another 3 hrs ... have to do something :p.
 
WannFly said:
great point and i am not sure if THIS is the one that my school will let me. just planning for the sake of planning, may be after PPL or when they let me loose on unsupervised solo without restrictions (dont know if its a thing or not). its gorgeous outside wit 6kt wind, my flight is not for another 3 hrs ... have to do something :p.
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For unsupervised solo you can't go more than 25nm from your home base and can't land at another airport (unless your CFI gives you an endorsement for regular landings at another specific airport within 25nm). It is illegal to fly solo as a student more than 25nm without a sign-off for a specific X-C. Trust me, the solo X-C's are a blast no matter where you go.
 
MassPilot said:
For unsupervised solo you can't go more than 25nm from your home base and can't land at another airport (unless your CFI gives you an endorsement for regular landings at another specific airport within 25nm). It is illegal to fly solo as a student more than 25nm without a sign-off for a specific X-C. Trust me, the solo X-C's are a blast no matter where you go.
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:(:( ha
 
One of the great benefits of traveling by plane is that you don't have to follow roads, you can fly a straight line. You'd drive faster than fly the first route!
 
For a XC, you're supposed to pick visible landmarks to navigate by, that's one of the primary points of that exercise.
Airports (especially small ones) are very hard to spot from the air.
Lakes (bigger and with distinctive shapes) are good, big hills are good, big roads, highways, rail roads and towns are good, surface mines are very visible etc.
I am not telling you how to do your planning but I think you should ask your CFI for some hands-on advice.
Also, satellite view on VFRmap.com helps a lot with visible landmarks.

A smart CFI told me once: "if you can't see a landmark that's clear on the sectional, reverse your looking, find something visible on the ground and look for it on the sectional".
 
#1 is overkill. #2 is too little.

You seem to be presuming airports make good visual checkpoints. They may or may not; often if the course is far off runway heading, they just look like big farms. Lakes, isolated towns, and large roads are much better in daytime.

If the navigation method is to be pilotage, I'd follow the railroad (with US-10 alongside). If not, perhaps DTL VOR (and maybe PKD VOR) makes a good intermediate checkpoint. You can try dead reckoning to get there, backed up with the VOR. The last leg should be close to US-10.
 
Almost all my hours post PPL have been long XC trips...While a gazillion nav points may be a good exercise...when VFR at higher altitudes I am direct to and lower altitudes I am IFR...I Follow Roads...as that usually involves more terrain out west and the roads often take the path of least resistance and lowest points through the terrain.

When I flew coast to coast I did have direct to punched in the GPS but tended to track the highways and towns more than the magenta line when making the trek across. While I didn't overly the highways exactly...it was a lot easier and more fun to keep I-10 within sight as visual guide vs tracking a magenta line or VOR to the next nav point. You will get plenty of that of you transition to true IFR!

VFR is really about flying "Dat-A-Way" and using pilotage, dead reckoning and nav sources to back up where you actually are vs flying a rigid course.
 
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If you're going to do it the old fashioned way by E6B and a paper nav log, option 1 would take a new student a day to make the flight plan. Lots of heading changes means calculating wind correction for each turn. Direct offers the same heading the entire first leg, which makes planning the old fashioned way so easy.
 
Go direct. It's faster but also a more useful exercise, because you'll be forced/challenged to find checkpoints that are along the direct route and still work for use in VFR pilotage. That can be a real challenge in eastern ND and western MN, where the land is flat and there are a million lakes, all alike. You should be able to start off by dead reckoning and find Detroit Lakes without any trouble. I would use Glyndon (railroad intersection helps identify it) and Hawley (distinct railroad bend south of town) as checkpoints along the way to DL, adjusting my dead reckoning as I go so I fly directly over the lake with an 1822-foot tower marked on the section just to its east, and know I am pretty much on course. I have picked out a few more checkpoints between DL and Brainerd but leave that as an exercise for you. Don't accidentally land at Brainerd International Raceway, which has some airport-like features.

Your CFI may or may not let you do this trip, but there is absolutely nothing to lose in planning cross-country trips. You'll learn a lot whether or not you ever fly them. There are some things you will not learn until you fly one, such as how hard towers are to see from the air (crappy checkpoints even if they are the only feature anywhere near your route) and how much closer lakes and cities seem to be than you expected (if you can't find your checkpoint, look closer before you look farther away).
 
I learned to fly in Fargo and have been to most of the airports in the area.

Why not follow highway 10?
 
iamtheari said:
That can be a real challenge in eastern ND and western MN, where the land is flat and there are a million lakes, all alike. You should be able to start off by dead reckoning and find Detroit Lakes without any trouble.
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Yep! I learned that on my first cross country up there. Not all of the lakes are depicted on the charts. They all start to look alike and it can be hard to determine which lake you're actually looking at. If you're familiar with the area however, the big ones are generally obvious.
 
DTL is NOTAMed out of service for the next 6 months. Personal experience tells me the 6 months is a guess and could be significantly longer...or shorter.

On a more general note, you are presolo. There is no point in planning an XC until your instructor actually teaches you how to do it.
 
mondtster said:
Yep! I learned that on my first cross country up there. Not all of the lakes are depicted on the charts. They all start to look alike and it can be hard to determine which lake you're actually looking at. If you're familiar with the area however, the big ones are generally obvious.
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Last April I flew from western ND to Fargo and back. Afternoon both ways. When asked how the flight was, my response that it was only turbulent when I was flying over lake shores. (For those unaware, nearly that entire route consists of "prairie potholes," small glacial lakes. It looks like a honeycomb of small pieces of land, especially in the spring.)
 
I like option 2... then you can practice your IFRR - - - - - "I Follow Rail Roads"
 
WannFly said:
great point and i am not sure if THIS is the one that my school will let me. just planning for the sake of planning, may be after PPL or when they let me loose on unsupervised solo without restrictions (dont know if its a thing or not). its gorgeous outside wit 6kt wind, my flight is not for another 3 hrs ... have to do something :p.
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I do understand why most are taking the Direct route (option 2) but flight planning can be fun. Your Option 1 is a great example of complex flight planning.

Gadzooks, to live someplace where there's an airport every 15 miles.....There are places out here where you can go for 50-100 miles with no airport....and few places to land where you can take off again.
 
mondtster said:
Yep! I learned that on my first cross country up there. Not all of the lakes are depicted on the charts. They all start to look alike and it can be hard to determine which lake you're actually looking at. If you're familiar with the area however, the big ones are generally obvious.
Click to expand...

yeah, tracking a lake in MN is pretty hard other than the very big ones. but i like the following railroad track and US10. i thought the option 1 gives me a lot of places i can safely land if something goes wrong. not that it matters around here since a corn or a bean field can be found a dime a dozen. not so much after crossing BRD though if i want to go further towards Duluth
 
#2 can also work if you have two VOR receivers in your aircraft...

Along the direct route, plot a few points about 30nm apart. Then figure out the radials from the Detroit Lakes and Fergus Falls VOR's intersect that point. Have the NAV radios tuned to the VOR, and when the CDI for each NAV radio centers up (assuming you have the OBS twisted correctly), you are passing through the point on your line.

Great practice for determining position, and would impress your CFI that you thought of that technique
 
It looks like you are trying to stay in your comfort zone. Your legs are all short and have a airport everywhere you go. Your CFI will want, as well as you should want to expand your level of comfort. If you put things into perspective option 2 is your better route. One of your cons for route 1 is weather observations, In route 2 you are not that far from airports that you can still tune in the ATIS/AWOS and get weather. If my student brought me option 1 I would definitely say no.
 
iamtheari said:
Go direct. It's faster but also a more useful exercise, because you'll be forced/challenged to find checkpoints that are along the direct route and still work for use in VFR pilotage. That can be a real challenge in eastern ND and western MN, where the land is flat and there are a million lakes, all alike. You should be able to start off by dead reckoning and find Detroit Lakes without any trouble. I would use Glyndon (railroad intersection helps identify it) and Hawley (distinct railroad bend south of town) as checkpoints along the way to DL, adjusting my dead reckoning as I go so I fly directly over the lake with an 1822-foot tower marked on the section just to its east, and know I am pretty much on course. I have picked out a few more checkpoints between DL and Brainerd but leave that as an exercise for you. Don't accidentally land at Brainerd International Raceway, which has some airport-like features.

Your CFI may or may not let you do this trip, but there is absolutely nothing to lose in planning cross-country trips. You'll learn a lot whether or not you ever fly them. There are some things you will not learn until you fly one, such as how hard towers are to see from the air (crappy checkpoints even if they are the only feature anywhere near your route) and how much closer lakes and cities seem to be than you expected (if you can't find your checkpoint, look closer before you look farther away).
Click to expand...

From another student (around the same point in training as Wannfly) this is the kind of post that to me anyway is absolutely the best kind to help me understand the thought processes, the way a pilot thinks and plans. Not only what you would choose to use, but why.

There are also other excellent points in this thread, particularly liked the point that it's easier to spot airports, etc. off to one side or the other, as there is more blind spot in front and under.

I really seek out posts like this, in practically all flight posts, whether it is landings, or crosswind, etc. because it is getting hints about the mindset, and priorities.

Sometimes here on POA there is a lot of good info. But even though accurate and good to say the technical aspects, reading also the thought behind, or while performing is even more help.

Thanks!
 
WannFly said:
Planning my first xc (solo), i am calling it fictitious since i am pre-solo :p. lets not get into how can i log this as long vs short xc etc. i will most certainly fly this route before with my CFI
Click to expand...

For PPL you have two cross country flights. One is night dual. Are you talking about your solo day/VFR cross-country? If so, you can't do a point to point direct.

1 solo cross country flight of at least 150nm total distance with full stop landings at 3 points and one segment of at least 50nm between T/O and landings.
 
OK, lots of differences between the 2 routes.
The first route is kind of like trying to learn to swim and never leaving the shallow end of the pool.
Way too many easy waypoints and too close together. There is no way that you will fly that route in real life. You're basically following the highway to BRD. You and I both know that MN and ND will not always be so easy on other routes.
Northern MN and ND can be quite sparse and all the numerous lakes can sometimes look a lot like each other.
The way points are so close together that you can almost see each succeeding one from the last one. No challenge here and not much to learn.

I would choose something like FAR BRD Walker and FAR. On that entire route you can use dead reckoning/pilotage, VOR/GPS. On the first leg you have the highway on either side of each wing, maybe 5-7 miles away and probably visible from about 5500'.
On the second leg, all you have to do is get close to the heading that will hit Leech Lake and you can find the airport from there, hard to miss that lake. You overfly Pine Rive halfway there on maybe a 45 mile leg. What's that, maybe a 25 minute leg.
Back home to FAR is somewhat sparse on landmarks along the route, but you have the VOR to help guide you.
You can use different navigational tools on each leg and test your skills that way.

Let us know if you have any other questions, I'm familiar with MN and ND as I live in the Twin Cities and have been to many of these airports in the past. .
 
champ driver said:
OK, lots of differences between the 2 routes.
The first route is kind of like trying to learn to swim and never leaving the shallow end of the pool.
Way too many easy waypoints and too close together. There is no way that you will fly that route in real life. You're basically following the highway to BRD. You and I both know that MN and ND will not always be so easy on other routes.
Northern MN and ND can be quite sparse and all the numerous lakes can sometimes look a lot like each other.
The way points are so close together that you can almost see each succeeding one from the last one. No challenge here and not much to learn.

I would choose something like FAR BRD Walker and FAR. On that entire route you can use dead reckoning/pilotage, VOR/GPS. On the first leg you have the highway on either side of each wing, maybe 5-7 miles away and probably visible from about 5500'.
On the second leg, all you have to do is get close to the heading that will hit Leech Lake and you can find the airport from there, hard to miss that lake. You overfly Pine Rive halfway there on maybe a 45 mile leg. What's that, maybe a 25 minute leg.
Back home to FAR is somewhat sparse on landmarks along the route, but you have the VOR to help guide you.
You can use different navigational tools on each leg and test your skills that way.

Let us know if you have any other questions, I'm familiar with MN and ND as I live in the Twin Cities and have been to many of these airports in the past. .
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the route you described is very close to what i follow when i go to BRD for lunch every now and then.. that restaurant on Gull lake .... man its awesome. when it gets closer to first solo XC i will see if i can do this route at all and post back
 
Ah, the difference between student cross countries and reality once you have your ticket. And even that later reality can take different forms depending on the plane you're flying and your personal preference or style of flying.

If I was planning that trip, I'd probably go FAR-ADC-BRD. No need for all those other intermediate turnpoints, and you're reasonably close to the railroad and highway for pilotage, and to airports along the way if I need to land... and almost exactly the same distance. But then I'm used to flying older planes with no electrical system and thus no electronic navigation equipment other than a handheld GPS. Of course that's not what your instructor will want to see.

My friends flying more modern airplanes would almost certainly fly direct.
 
WannFly said:
yeah, tracking a lake in MN is pretty hard other than the very big ones. but i like the following railroad track and US10. i thought the option 1 gives me a lot of places i can safely land if something goes wrong. not that it matters around here since a corn or a bean field can be found a dime a dozen. not so much after crossing BRD though if i want to go further towards Duluth
Click to expand...

It seems to me like you might be letting your imagination run wild with the need for all these emergency landing areas if you flew option one as posted (there are plenty of them around even on a direct course). My suggestion of following the highway was simply that it is a relatively easy navigational tool, not that you have to fly right over top of it. Point the airplane directly at Brainerd and keep the road in sight and you're going to make it there.

Indeed, the farther east you go in northern MN the fields start to dwindle and be replaced with trees. I don't let that stop me from flying in that area, I just know my emergency landing area options are going to be reduced. There are still enough options to not be concerning though.
 
38 posts in and no one has said he needs to fire his CFI? I think we're losing our moxie and mojo :arf: :arf: :arf:
 
citizen5000 said:
For PPL you have two cross country flights. One is night dual. Are you talking about your solo day/VFR cross-country? If so, you can't do a point to point direct.

1 solo cross country flight of at least 150nm total distance with full stop landings at 3 points and one segment of at least 50nm between T/O and landings.
Click to expand...
I did 7 X-C's for my PPL. 3 dual during the day, 1 night dual, and 3 solo. 2 of the solos and 3 of the duals were point to point direct.
 
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