Plane You Do NOT Like

[peppy]

The G3 is a nice improvement in many ways.

During the early Cirrus days I heard of several tail strikes but you don't hear about them very often now. Awareness? As I mentioned in an earlier post, most occur.during zero flap landings. Prop strikes also seem to have gone down but I do consider them an issue to be aware of. While improving prop clearance helps, it seems most cases have as the root cause hitting the springy nose gear, not going around and getting into severe PIO.

A DPE friend bought a 22 with the intent of training a co-owner to fly it. During the process he became aware of the excessive prop and tail strikes and researched the issue. He said the pre-G3 fleet strike rate was more than 20%. They decided to find something else.

During a subsequent lunch with the owner of the Cirrus service center at KADS, he said they don't keep stats on the frequency of such events, but that prop/tail strikes and electrical problems are two of their most-frequent service issues.

I measured the clearance of two airplanes sitting side by side in another shop (temporairly stored there during a threatened hail storm) and was impressed by the additional clearances provided by the redesign.

 

[Pilawt]

Really? Which ones? My friend swears his doesn't.

All of them.

 

[Dav8or]

Ever seen a P-38?

Oh Jeez... and they're tricycle gear and they have the wings down low... makes one want to reevaluate what makes a plane a "real" airplane!

 

[poadeleted21]

Really? Which ones? My friend swears his doesn't.

My N35 has bladders, I just changed out the fuel sump drains last weekend, yes they are a pain in the ass to change out due to the rubber hose coming out of the bladders.

 

[CBeaulieu]

Really? Which ones? My friend swears his doesn't.

Hence the writing on the wing that advises you to not put the fuel nozzle more than 3" into the fueling port.

 

[peppy]

All of them.

Wow. I'll call my friend and propose lunch so I can tell him he set me up! :-(

 

[vontresc]

I can't think of anything I truly hated. Some were worse than others.

The Slowdowner - Probably mainly because of that Sadistic SOB CFII in the right seat. On the plus side when things went to crap it didn't happen very fast

Grob 103 - As much as it pains me to badmouth a sailplane, the one I flew in NM was awful in yaw. Unfortunately I cannot remember the exact model of it, but it took an awful lot of rudderwork to keep it going straight.

SGS 1-36 the follow on to the 1-26. Very pitchy (yes I PIOd it on TO) and not as fun as the 1-26

 

[zaitcev]

Ask yourself this; have you ever seen a DA20 in the air? There is a reason for it. :wink2:

Yes, I have seen DA-20 in the air, and there was a reason for it: it was low. Those cadets out of KPUB always fly some 1000 AGL and cruising above their airspace their white color projects nicely against the ground.

 

[zaitcev]

Grob 103 - As much as it pains me to badmouth a sailplane, the one I flew in NM was awful in yaw. Unfortunately I cannot remember the exact model of it, but it took an awful lot of rudderwork to keep it going straight.

I figured the secret to 103 is the inertia. Just dial in the input you know is going to get you there, and it will gradually settle.

 

[Ghery]

I don't like the stick geometry, mostly because I think on a side stick pitch should be a pivot rather than a push/pull. The other issue I have with Cirrus is basically mine, in that I am left handed and would prefer to be able to keep a hand on the stick/yoke when copying clearances etc. I know, I know, autopilot, trimmed for straight and level and all that, but ..

Really frustrating when you need your left hand on the yoke for the PTT button while talking to ATC and copying things. I gave up yesterday and just entered the new frequencies in the radio as they gave them to me. Now, an autopilot in that 172 would have been really nice. Oh well, I can dream...

BTW, everybody is born right handed. Only a select few overcome the handicap.

 

[cirrusmx]

When people transition to the Cirrus from something else they find that it's controls are a bit un-normal. If you give it a few hours you'll get used to them and they will become good. But apparently a lot of people take it up once, say that it sucks and leave.

Also it does have a problem climbing. Because the engine keeps overheating you can never climb at Vy, in the end you end up doing 200ft/min.

If you're willing to overlook these disadvantages it becomes a good plane. And I'd say that it's pretty easy to overlook them, you will get used to the controls after a few hours so that's not a problem and since most of the time you spend in cruise not climb the climbing disadvantage is relatively insignificant either.

The SR22T has pretty good climb performance. I constantly get around 1300 fpm up until the mid teens and then approx 1000 fpm to the twenties. On ideal days with not a lot of load I have seen way higher climb rates. It aint bad at all for a piston. You cruise climb the cirrus at 120 knots not at Vy. If you climb it full power at Vy then yes the CHTs are gonna spike pretty quickly. Overall, Its one of the few piston singles that has travel utility, were you can actually beat the drive and the airline.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The tank is a wet wing design as is the Bonanza and many other planes. I prefer the design used by Diamond but they are pretty unique in their design.

The thing that's relatively unique about the Cirrus is the use of a wet wing that's made of composite materials. In an accident, metal bends while composites shatter. There's a video on YouTube somewhere of a Cirrus crashing in a parking lot. If you watch frame by frame, the impact occurs in one frame, the next frame shows a big splash of fuel as the wings shatter, and in the frame after that the airplane is completely engulfed in flames. Airplane to fireball in 1/15 of a second.

That is probably the biggest safety issue with the Cirri. I also definitely prefer Diamond's design - Composite wing, but metal tanks surrounded by dual main wing spars. There has never been an otherwise survivable crash in a Diamond Star that resulted in a post-crash fire.

 

[cirrusmx]

The thing that's relatively unique about the Cirrus is the use of a wet wing that's made of composite materials. In an accident, metal bends while composites shatter. There's a video on YouTube somewhere of a Cirrus crashing in a parking lot. If you watch frame by frame, the impact occurs in one frame, the next frame shows a big splash of fuel as the wings shatter, and in the frame after that the airplane is completely engulfed in flames. Airplane to fireball in 1/15 of a second.

That is probably the biggest safety issue with the Cirri. I also definitely prefer Diamond's design - Composite wing, but metal tanks surrounded by dual main wing spars. There has never been an otherwise survivable crash in a Diamond Star that resulted in a post-crash fire.

Moral of the story. DONT CRASH

 

[peppy]

Hence the writing on the wing that advises you to not put the fuel nozzle more than 3" into the fueling port.

Had lunch with my Bonanza owning friend and took him to task. He swears he never said such a stupid thing but rather mentioned that the tanks are ahead of the wing spar. Oh well, I guess I totally own my stupid error.

 

[peppy]

That is probably the biggest safety issue with the Cirri. I also definitely prefer Diamond's design - Composite wing, but metal tanks surrounded by dual main wing spars. There has never been an otherwise survivable crash in a Diamond Star that resulted in a post-crash fire.

On September 21, 2005 a DA20 crashed and the student pilot eventually died from thermal injuries received. She was able to make a statement prior to succumbing to the injuries.

The Cirrus crash video everyone points to is a very violent crash and other planes also erupt in fireballs under the same circumstances. An example would be this Bonanza crash yesterday.

I agree that the Diamond design is a lot better. I just think the knock on Cirrus is overstated. Planes carry a lot of fuel and are prone to burn when they crash. It is not unique to Cirrus.

 

[MachFly]

The SR22T has pretty good climb performance. I constantly get around 1300 fpm up until the mid teens and then approx 1000 fpm to the twenties. On ideal days with not a lot of load I have seen way higher climb rates. It aint bad at all for a piston. You cruise climb the cirrus at 120 knots not at Vy. If you climb it full power at Vy then yes the CHTs are gonna spike pretty quickly. Overall, Its one of the few piston singles that has travel utility, were you can actually beat the drive and the airline.

Yeah I was actually talking about the SR20, just went back and edited that post.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

On September 21, 2005 a DA20 crashed and the student pilot eventually died from thermal injuries received. She was able to make a statement prior to succumbing to the injuries.

The DA20 and DA40 are completely different designs - The DA20 tank is in the cabin. I don't like that at all.

The Cirrus crash video everyone points to is a very violent crash and other planes also erupt in fireballs under the same circumstances. An example would be this Bonanza crash yesterday.

I think the Cirri have a higher proportion of post-crash fires than other types, though. Sure, anything will turn into a fireball if you crash it hard enough, but it doesn't have to be so easy.

 

[Bob Noel]

Really frustrating when you need your left hand on the yoke for the PTT button while talking to ATC and copying things. I gave up yesterday and just entered the new frequencies in the radio as they gave them to me. Now, an autopilot in that 172 would have been really nice. Oh well, I can dream...

BTW, everybody is born right handed. Only a select few overcome the handicap.

fwiw - I'm left handed, the PTT is on the left side of the yoke on my the 140 I used to own. I never really had a problem with flying while always having a pen in my left hand. I'd use the PTT and then start writing when ATC was giving me my clearance (using my right hand on the yoke).

Of course, maybe it's because I'm an unusual ambidextrous, writing left handed, shooting right handed, throwing right handed, playing goalie left handed.

 

[MachFly]

On September 21, 2005 a DA20 crashed and the student pilot eventually died from thermal injuries received. She was able to make a statement prior to succumbing to the injuries.

I never heard of a Diamond catching fire before before, did not know it was even possible.
Perhaps the fire was due to the power lines and not due to the plane? I read the NTSB report it doesn't really say what started the fire.

The DA20 and DA40 are completely different designs - The DA20 tank is in the cabin. I don't like that at all.

They are actually very similar. It is true that the fuel tank is located in a different place but as far as I know it's the same type of fuel tank (just the same is different) and very similar internal structure.

 

[Ghery]

fwiw - I'm left handed, the PTT is on the left side of the yoke on my the 140 I used to own. I never really had a problem with flying while always having a pen in my left hand. I'd use the PTT and then start writing when ATC was giving me my clearance (using my right hand on the yoke).

Of course, maybe it's because I'm an unusual ambidextrous, writing left handed, shooting right handed, throwing right handed, playing goalie left handed.

Write left handed, left eye dominant, shoot rifle or shotgun left handed, pistol typically right handed (with left eye), play ball right handed. I understand what you're saying.