Plane financing

simple....cash is liquid......an airplane isn't.

If liquidity isn't a concern or monthly cash flow is an issue....then by all means, pay cash and own it out right.
What I don't understand is why people would buy a plane with their own money... take a note out on the plane....
 
Sure, it's just a matter of personal situation which way it works best. If you don't need that liquidity, it's not a big deal. If you are going to self insure you would be paying cash as well. People have to figure out what works best for them.
 
What I don't understand is why people would buy a plane with their own money... take a note out on the plane....

Sounds like the thread is moving toward religion again.

Some of us don't like being in debt to ANYONE for ANYTHING! How about owning the plane AND having cash in the bank?

I am just as committed to being out of debt as you are to borrowing money. Neither of us are right or wrong, good or bad, we just have our own opinions and philosophies.
 
Some of us don't like being in debt to ANYONE for ANYTHING! How about owning the plane AND having cash in the bank?

.

Reminds me of a conversation I had with aRealtor one time at an open house. She had all these pre-printed sheets on the house that showed payments with 5% and 10% down and the 30 year payment.

I asked what the payment would be if you had more done (knowing she likely had no idea how to calculate payments) and she replied, without skipping a beat, "then you would need to buy a more expensive house to stay at the 10% down.


You just need to buy a bigger plane, then you won't have that messy cash....
 
What I don't understand is why people would buy a plane with their own money... take a note out on the plane....

If the plane is a toy.... then I have to disagree with this statement... unless of course the interest is at 0%.

I don't think your going to find any low rates on anything under $100K
 
I'm not sure of the current loan rates, but say you have $100K to spend on the plane and can get a %5-6 loan. You can go to vanguard and get into their $50K minimum buy in funds, which all have gotten over %6 since inception.

Or go to fidelity and look at their Health mutual funds, you can get 15-16%....

IMO, the opportunity costs are significant.... Holding cash in a depreciating asset (airplane) vs. a mutual fund is crazy... If you can handle the monthly cash flow on the loan.

But, I concur with you Doc... to each their own...
 
And those investments carry ZERO risk?
There is ZERO risk in paying cash and holding it. You are GUARANTEED to lose.....you are negative -10% to -14% every year due to inflation (stupid tax). Once you get over there is no difference in your money or other people's but only concentrate on staying cash flow positive life gets easier. Loaning yourself money at 12% each year through a corp is the best thing ever.
 
There is ZERO risk in paying cash and holding it. You are GUARANTEED to lose.....you are negative -10% to -14% every year due to inflation (stupid tax). Once you get over there is no difference in your money or other people's but only concentrate on staying cash flow positive life gets easier. Loaning yourself money at 12% each year through a corp is the best thing ever.


Thanks for your philosophies and opinions, but my question remains unanswered. Are the investments quoted, ZERO risk?
 
There is ZERO risk in paying cash and holding it. You are GUARANTEED to lose.....you are negative -10% to -14% every year due to inflation (stupid tax). Once you get over there is no difference in your money or other people's but only concentrate on staying cash flow positive life gets easier. Loaning yourself money at 12% each year through a corp is the best thing ever.

Correct, all money is exactly as worthless, it is all just a promise.
 
I'm not sure of the current loan rates, but say you have $100K to spend on the plane and can get a %5-6 loan. You can go to vanguard and get into their $50K minimum buy in funds, which all have gotten over %6 since inception.

Or go to fidelity and look at their Health mutual funds, you can get 15-16%....

IMO, the opportunity costs are significant.... Holding cash in a depreciating asset (airplane) vs. a mutual fund is crazy... If you can handle the monthly cash flow on the loan.

But, I concur with you Doc... to each their own...


Your 6% return on the Vanguard fund also includes a taxable portion. At 33% tax rate! the return is closer to 4% vs the loan cost of 5-6%. A losing deal.

Do you have a link to the Fidelity health funds that OFFER 15-16% returns?
 
Correct, all money is exactly as worthless, it is all just a promise.

Maybe, but it beats bringing a flock of sheep to the market to trade for bread or whatever.
 
Maybe, but it beats bringing a flock of sheep to the market to trade for bread or whatever.

Yep, you need it as a tool, what happened is we allowed it to become its own commodity, and that is keeping us from evolving.
 
Yep, you need it as a tool, what happened is we allowed it to become its own commodity, and that is keeping us from evolving.

"What gets measured gets managed"
-- Peter Drucker
 
Thanks for your philosophies and opinions, but my question remains unanswered. Are the investments quoted, ZERO risk?

You have to do the calculation on a risk-adjusted return - so they are likely slightly riskier than a t-bill, but remember most of the Vanguard stuff is market index, if the market goes down, so does everyone else...so it doesn't really matter
 
Holding cash in a depreciating asset (airplane) vs. a mutual fund is crazy...

Some airframes do a good job at hedging inflation, add that to the 100 bucks a head I can charge for scenic flights, I'm quite happy with the money I have in my plane.
 
Buy one, rent one, borrowed money or not, but don't try and steal one and always wear a condom.
There ya go kids, unsolicited advice that covers it all.

Must be an extra large condom.
 
You guys are too funny trying to play the spread between an airplane loan and a stock fund on a < $50k amount.

Grow a pair, lever up and start trading currencies! You'll be shopping for a jet in no time! If the E-trade baby can do it, so can you.

:lol:
 
Your 6% return on the Vanguard fund also includes a taxable portion. At 33% tax rate! the return is closer to 4% vs the loan cost of 5-6%. A losing deal.

Do you have a link to the Fidelity health funds that OFFER 15-16% returns?


If your interested go to fidelity and snoop around their mutual funds... If not, then don't worry about it.
 
I guess aircraft insurance doesn't change much with or without a loan.

I know my hull insurance is set at what the insurance company tells me it's set at. It doesn't matter if you put jet engines on the wagon, the hull pay-out doesn't change much.

The only thing is I'm pretty sure is you can't self insure the hull with a note. Like a car, the creditor is going to want to see insurance. But nobody self insures anyway, so it's a wash.
 
Leverage is good for real estate, or a business, or something that is supposed to appreciate or grow.


Who says businesses and real estate are "supposed to" grow?

More importantly... Do the people who claim so make money off of the transaction whether they do or not, or do they make their money off of the growth?

If the OP has he credit score they claim, they already know the answer to their question. They just haven't put it in a spreadsheet and come to terms with it yet.

The act of putting the options in the spreadsheet will clear up any misunderstandings they convinced themselves of.
 
I guess aircraft insurance doesn't change much with or without a loan.

I know my hull insurance is set at what the insurance company tells me it's set at. It doesn't matter if you put jet engines on the wagon, the hull pay-out doesn't change much.

The only thing is I'm pretty sure is you can't self insure the hull with a note. Like a car, the creditor is going to want to see insurance. But nobody self insures anyway, so it's a wash.

:confused: My hull coverage has always been what I requested.
 
Who says businesses and real estate are "supposed to" grow?

Our economic model, that's the problem, if it doesn't constantly grow, it fails, there is no way to have an equilibrium in a model that is based in usury. That is the whole problem with it, not to mention it puts the greedy in control and they have no sense of economic equilibrium, they always want more which serves to compound the problem.
 
Our economic model, that's the problem, if it doesn't constantly grow, it fails, there is no way to have an equilibrium in a model that is based in usury. That is the whole problem with it, not to mention it puts the greedy in control and they have no sense of economic equilibrium, they always want more which serves to compound the problem.


Might be your economic model. I wouldn't go so far as to call it "ours".

I buy things called "titles". Some people buy things called "mortgages".

The sellers of said "titles" and "mortgages" can be as greedy as they like. I simply don't buy then. They usually come down on price at that point.

It's pretty easy to trump greed. The only word one needs to utilize is "No". If one thinks one should be polite, one can add, "Goodbye".

The folks that won't do it, feed the greedy pretty well. Note I said "won't", not "can't".
 
Might be your economic model. I wouldn't go so far as to call it "ours".

I buy things called "titles". Some people buy things called "mortgages".

The sellers of said "titles" and "mortgages" can be as greedy as they like. I simply don't buy then. They usually come down on price at that point.

It's pretty easy to trump greed. The only word one needs to utilize is "No". If one thinks one should be polite, one can add, "Goodbye".

The folks that won't do it, feed the greedy pretty well. Note I said "won't", not "can't".

When you buy that title, you charge interest, in order for the person buying the mortgage from you not to lose, the real estate market must grow to meet the amount of usury. Now that cash that you traded for the right to let that person live there, what that is worth is based in nothing but people's faith in what it is worth. So in order for you not to lose, you rely on the faith of society to maintain and grow the value of that money.
 
When you buy that title, you charge interest, in order for the person buying the mortgage from you not to lose, the real estate market must grow to meet the amount of usury. Now that cash that you traded for the right to let that person live there, what that is worth is based in nothing but people's faith in what it is worth. So in order for you not to lose, you rely on the faith of society.


I've bought titles where the other person lost money (compared to the market price) when selling. Maybe they gained something non-tangible like not having to maintain said item anymore, or they wanted cash to buy something completely different and took the loss to be able to do it sooner. Hell if I know, not my business.

Your assumption that they gain monetarily by selling it to me isn't based in reality. Their reason for selling isn't my concern, nor is them making a profit on the sale. I'll pay whatever I'll pay for my own reasons.

I don't care what they think it's worth in dollars other than as a starting point for negotiations. And I really don't care if they make anything on the deal. That's their problem to solve what they think they need before they say, "deal".

Assuming I'm "paying interest" to them to sell me something is a bad assumption. Price is negotiable. They don't like what I'm offering, they walk. I don't like what they want, I walk.

It also works the other direction. I let one of dad's collectible cars go for what he paid for it. My reasons for doing so were my own. They included that dad knew the buyer before he passed, they both shared a common interest in that type of car, I wanted to see the car used and not sit and rot in my garage, and that I knew the buyer knew what dad paid for it. I paid nothing for it, so there was no skin off of my nose other than diluting the value of his estate by a couple thousand bucks.

The buyer didn't "pay me interest". He got the car below "market" value. And both of us are fine with that deal.

Plenty of deals out there where the seller is willing to lose money for whatever reasons they have. They do require patience and an ability to search for them. There's no mandate of a specific economic model that requires growth.

Barter also bypasses all of that. If I offer to do something below market cost for you and you also for me, or trade goods straight up, and we are both happy with the results, there's no need for "growth", "interest" or any of the constructs of those selling or reaping benefits from transaction fees.

Your general assumption that every deal made in our economy is based on bending the other guy over the table, just shows a weird world view, probably enhanced by doing business with those who enjoy said bending. You need to find a better class of person to do business with.
 
I've bought titles where the other person lost money (compared to the market price) when selling. Maybe they gained something non-tangible like not having to maintain said item anymore, or they wanted cash to buy something completely different and took the loss to be able to do it sooner. Hell if I know, not my business.

Your assumption that they gain monetarily by selling it to me isn't based in reality. Their reason for selling isn't my concern, nor is them making a profit on the sale. I'll pay whatever I'll pay for my own reasons.

I don't care what they think it's worth in dollars other than as a starting point for negotiations. And I really don't care if they make anything on the deal. That's their problem to solve what they think they need before they say, "deal".

Assuming I'm "paying interest" to them to sell me something is a bad assumption. Price is negotiable. They don't like what I'm offering, they walk. I don't like what they want, I walk.

It also works the other direction. I let one of dad's collectible cars go for what he paid for it. My reasons for doing so were my own. They included that dad knew the buyer before he passed, they both shared a common interest in that type of car, I wanted to see the car used and not sit and rot in my garage, and that I knew the buyer knew what dad paid for it. I paid nothing for it, so there was no skin off of my nose other than diluting the value of his estate by a couple thousand bucks.

The buyer didn't "pay me interest". He got the car below "market" value. And both of us are fine with that deal.

Plenty of deals out there where the seller is willing to lose money for whatever reasons they have. They do require patience and an ability to search for them. There's no mandate of a specific economic model that requires growth.

Barter also bypasses all of that. If I offer to do something below market cost for you and you also for me, or trade goods straight up, and we are both happy with the results, there's no need for "growth", "interest" or any of the constructs of those selling or reaping benefits from transaction fees.

Your general assumption that every deal made in our economy is based on bending the other guy over the table, just shows a weird world view, probably enhanced by doing business with those who enjoy said bending. You need to find a better class of person to do business with.

If the person sold at a loss, they lost and you gained from their loss. That is the basic moral issue with usury. The reason they lost is because people lost faith in the value of money, which is the basic problem with our economic model.
 
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If your interested go to fidelity and snoop around their mutual funds... If not, then don't worry about it.


I did.

I couldn't find a single health fund offering 15%.

I am sure you can quickly provide a link, as no way you would make that up.


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If the person sold at a loss, they lost and you gained from their loss. That is the basic moral issue with usury.


I can't tell if they sold at anything other than a monetary loss. They may have gained something I can't measure.

The assumption that they did or didn't is simply that, an assumption, with no point in even caring about it. If both parties accepted the transaction, both parties accepted the transaction. That's all that's known.

Making it out to be usury is false and an attempt to discredit the process on your part. There's no false moral issue if both parties negotiated and came to a deal.

They want X item (money, or my time, expertise, whatever), I want Y item (money or whatever they're selling). We agree on a price, and trade items.

You want it to be about some economic boogeymen, but it isn't always so. Sure, they're out there. Don't do business with them. Say, "no". Problem solved.
 
I did.

I couldn't find a single health fund offering 15%.

I am sure you can quickly provide a link, as no way you would make that up.


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Was not trying to be mean, but was not sure you really wanted to know. Look at the mutual fund ticker FBIOX. 27% this year and 16% over the past ten years. If you don't like biotech, you can do consumer cyclical which has offered 11.29% over 10 years too.

Best is to learn the stock markets business cycles and actively trade them, of course this is my opinion. Good for what you paid for
 
I'm not here to give investment advice.while I play the market and provide for my family, not everyone does. Here is a good quote to remember:

October: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May, March, June, December, August and February.
Mark Twain
 
Look at the mutual fund ticker FBIOX. 27% this year and 16% over the past ten years.

Coincidentally, when we set up Karen's IRA a few years back, FBIOX was one of the Fidelity choices.

Up about 230% to date!

With the benefit of hindsight, we wish we had put it all there, but diversification is important.

Utility stocks are a good way to get yield with only moderate risk. Think DUK, POM, D, that sort of thing. Not hard to get yields of 3% to 4% or more, though both the dividends and capital gains (if any) are taxable.
 
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