Plane down in NJ

I knew him, was a good man.


Don't know if any of your guys ever flown to that airport, there is absolutely no good place for a crash landing there. Houses and factories.
I assume his options were going directly into a wall or trying to extended his glide back to the runway and stalling on the way.

Will see what the NTSB report says.
 
MachFly said:
I knew him, was a good man.


Don't know if any of your guys ever flown to that airport, there is absolutely no good place for a crash landing there. Houses and factories.
I assume his options were going directly into a wall or trying to extended his glide back to the runway and stalling on the way.

Will see what the NTSB report says.
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Not to mention the refinery tanks... And probably lower in altitude due to the Class B shelves... Really sad.
 
Marauder said:
Not to mention the refinery tanks... And probably lower in altitude due to the Class B shelves... Really sad.
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As far as I understand it was on take off, too low for the bravo shelf to be a factor.
 
MachFly said:
I knew him, was a good man.


Don't know if any of your guys ever flown to that airport, there is absolutely no good place for a crash landing there. Houses and factories.
I assume his options were going directly into a wall or trying to extended his glide back to the runway and stalling on the way.

Will see what the NTSB report says.
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Actually, the old GM plant has been demolished, so there is a big open-ish area now... from the local newspaper article I read (with photos- including a color one of the wreck on the front page- ugh!), witnesses heard the engine sputtering and watched them apparently head for that clearing. There are plenty of wires and things there, so maybe they clipped a wire or stalled trying to clear them. :dunno: At any rate, it appears to have gone in nose-first: tail boom fractured, wings busted off, near-total destruction of the cabin. No post-crash fire, though. One of the pilots was tossed out of the wreck on impact; not sure which one.
The deceased CFI/PIC's name sort of rings a bell; I may have met him or heard of him during his time with AreoSafety over at N07. RIP. :(

Here's the front page:

http://www.nj.com/starledger/pdf/saturday.pdf


And some more, with a news video:

http://www.nj.com/union/index.ssf/2013/05/small_plane_was_struggling_to.html
 
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rottydaddy said:
Actually, the old GM plant has been demolished, so there is a big open-ish area now... from the local newspaper article I read (with photos- including a color one of the wreck on the front page- ugh!), witnesses heard the engine sputtering and watched them apparently head for that clearing. There are plenty of wires and things there, so maybe they clipped a wire or stalled trying to clear them. :dunno: At any rate, it appears to have gone in nose-first: tail boom fractured, wings busted off, near-total destruction of the cabin. No post-crash fire, though. One of the pilots was tossed out of the wreck on impact; not sure which one.
The deceased CFI/PIC's name sort of rings a bell; I may have met him or heard of him during his time with AreoSafety over at N07. RIP. :(
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That GM plant is useful however it is located in such a place where on take off the aircraft is too high to land on that plant, yet too low to turn back around.

You said he was tossed out of the cockpit?? How do you know that?
 
MachFly said:
That GM plant is useful however it is located in such a place where on take off the aircraft is too high to land on that plant, yet too low to turn back around.

You said he was tossed out of the cockpit?? How do you know that?
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Plant is gone... and the article says one occupant was ejected.
As for not being able to get in there from where he was, we don't know how high/far from the runway he was. But it looks like those old RR tracks are on the western perimeter of the clearing; assuming he was taking off to the west, he had probably turned around and was trying to either get to the airport or the clearing from a point well beyond both. Maybe he stalled in the turn; maybe the student was fighting for control; maybe, maybe, maybe.
I guess we'll find out later, when the student is ready to talk... and I hope he's OK; he probably got hurt pretty bad.
 
MachFly said:
That GM plant is useful however it is located in such a place where on take off the aircraft is too high to land on that plant, yet too low to turn back around.

You said he was tossed out of the cockpit?? How do you know that?
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http://newjersey.news12.com/news/fl...h-near-linden-airport-1.5378931?firstfree=yes

"Investigators say MacCallum was partially ejected and the student, believed to be a 19-year-old from Monmouth Junction, was trapped and had to be pulled out. The student was taken to University Hospital in Newark, where he is listed in critical condition."

RIP!
 
redtail said:
http://newjersey.news12.com/news/fl...h-near-linden-airport-1.5378931?firstfree=yes

"Investigators say MacCallum was partially ejected and the student, believed to be a 19-year-old from Monmouth Junction, was trapped and had to be pulled out. The student was taken to University Hospital in Newark, where he is listed in critical condition."

RIP!
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rottydaddy said:
Plant is gone... and the article says one occupant was ejected.
As for not being able to get in there from where he was, we don't know how high/far from the runway he was. But it looks like those old RR tracks are on the western perimeter of the clearing; assuming he was taking off to the west, he had probably turned around and was trying to either get to the airport or the clearing from a point well beyond both. Maybe he stalled in the turn; maybe the student was fighting for control; maybe, maybe, maybe.
I guess we'll find out later, when the student is ready to talk... and I hope he's OK; he probably got hurt pretty bad.
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Yeah I know the plant is gone, just wasn't sure how to call it.

I really hope the news is wrong (as they often are), I highly doubt that he was not buckled up. And I just don't see how it's possible to be ejected from that airplane if you are buckled up.


I think in this case he just had too much energy to land where that GM plant was, it sure looks like that's what he was trying to do. Well...will see what the NTSB report says.
 
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MachFly said:
That just ****es me off, WTF is a nose dive? I watched some video last night where they interviewed a firefighter and he said "it was definitely some sort of nose dive." Is that his professional opinion? Those guys don't know **** and shouldn't be talking.
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You got that right! Makes it sound like he lost control. I'm sure he did his damnedest to get find a place to set it down.
 
MachFly said:
Yeah I know the plant is gone, just wasn't sure how to call it.

I really hope the news is wrong (as they often are), I highly doubt that he was not buckled up. And I just don't see how it's possible to be ejected from that airplane if you are buckled up.


I think in this case he just had too much energy to land where that GM plant was, it sure looks like that's what he was trying to do. Well...will see what the NTSB report says.
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Well, if the cabin comes apart like that, the restraints might fail. :dunno:
Looking at the Chopper 12 vid from redtail's post (wait until they zoom way out about 30 seconds in), we see that they came down on the northern edge of the clearing, pretty close to the departure end of 27. At this point, it kinda looks like it spun in, because the wreckage is pointed south. Wind was favoring a departure to the west, so that's odd. But it was forecast to be veering NW at times, so if he tried to buttonhook off of 27, it would make sense that he'd turn right, to get into the wind initially.
But yeah, it's hard to say at this point.
 
rottydaddy said:
Well, if the cabin comes apart like that, the restraints might fail. :dunno:
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No it doesn't come apart like that, that was done by the crash fire rescue.

Actually one of the main features of the DA20 is the structural integrity of the cabin. The seats are a part of the main frame (that's why they don't move) and it has 4-point harness.
 
MachFly said:
No it doesn't come apart like that, that was done by the crash fire rescue.

Actually one of the main features of the DA20 is the structural integrity of the cabin. The seats are a part of the main frame (that's why they don't move) and it has 4-point harness.
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If you say so... offhand, though, I'd guess this impact exceeded the design limits of every part of that airplane.
 
rottydaddy said:
If you say so... offhand, though, I'd guess this impact exceeded the design limits of every part of that airplane.
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There was a very similar crash with a DA40, everyone walked away. Something was very odd in this crash, will just have to see the NTSB report.
 
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/05/31/small-plane-crashes-in-linden/

At 1:24 notice light poles with wires behind the aircraft. Those wires are awfully loose. It is possible the instructor in the right seat took the controls and turned 270 degrees in his direction to attempt landing to the South in the old GM plant parking lot. That would make sense as there is not any good options out the left side from 27 departure. They may have tried to fly under wires and caught the tail hence the nose dive people saw. Maybe the right wing caught a pole or wires and that is why it is back under the fuselage.

Hopefully the student makes a full recovery.
 
RV10flyer said:
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/05/31/small-plane-crashes-in-linden/

At 1:24 notice light poles with wires behind the aircraft. Those wires are awfully loose. It is possible the instructor in the right seat took the controls and turned 270 degrees in his direction to attempt landing to the South in the old GM plant parking lot. That would make sense as there is not any good options out the left side from 27 departure. They may have tried to fly under wires and caught the tail hence the nose dive people saw. Maybe the right wing caught a pole or wires and that is why it is back under the fuselage.

Hopefully the student makes a full recovery.
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That may be a possibility. I wondered about whether they hit power lines, it would explain the "nose down" comment.
 
When I saw the picture I was pretty sure it wasn't the result of a tail slide.

MachFly said:
That just ****es me off, WTF is a nose dive? I watched some video last night where they interviewed a firefighter and he said "it was definitely some sort of nose dive." Is that his professional opinion? Those guys don't know **** and shouldn't be talking.
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wabower said:
When I saw the picture I was pretty sure it wasn't the result of a tail slide.
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Stall/Spin perhaps, I'm fairly certain he didn't just decide to dive and forget to pull out.

How do you define a "nose dive" anyways? I don't think I've ever heard it used by anyone who knows anything about aviation.
 
Would the results of a stall-spin have been any different?

I think the editor would simply remind us that his job is to sell newspapers and not FAR/AIMs and that when the nose hits first he's going to say it couldn't have happened without a dive.

We're never going to be able to depend on the press for knowledgeable coverage of aviation accidents, so we just need to console ourselves with their unfailingly-accurate accounts of political and social issues.

MachFly said:
Stall/Spin perhaps, I'm fairly certain he didn't just decide to dive and forget to pull out.

How do you define a "nose dive" anyways? I don't think I've ever heard it used by anyone who knows anything about aviation.
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WOW this is right near me! God bless these people and their families I feel horrible!
 
Hope the student pulls through this. RIP to the CFI. very sad. Hope we can get some details to learn from.
 
you do realize that they don't know anything about everything else they talk about as well? It was some sort of nose dive, that is far more accurate then they usually are.
MachFly said:
That just ****es me off, WTF is a nose dive? I watched some video last night where they interviewed a firefighter and he said "it was definitely some sort of nose dive." Is that his professional opinion? Those guys don't know **** and shouldn't be talking.
Click to expand...
 
Looks like the NTSB doesn't know what happened either.


http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20130531X45544&key=1
On May 31, 2013, about 1310 eastern daylight time, a Diamond Aircraft Industries Inc., DA20-C1, N176MA, was substantially damaged when it impacted the ground, shortly after takeoff from the Linden Airport (LDJ), Linden, New Jersey. The flight instructor was fatally injured and a passenger was seriously injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan had been filed for the local introductory instructional flight that was conducted under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91.

The airplane was owned by a limited liability company, and operated by Best-in-Flight, a flight school based at LDJ. The airplane was "topped-off" with fuel the night before and was flown without incident for 2.6 hours prior to the accident.

A witness at LDJ reported that the airplane departed from runway 27, a 4,140-foot-long, asphalt runway. The airplane "struggled" to break ground and gain altitude. The airplane made a right turn at an estimated altitude of between 125 to 150 feet above the ground, and immediately started to lose altitude. It descended behind a building and he heard the pilot radio "MAYDAY" over the airport's common traffic advisory frequency, stating "plane going down." He was then informed by the pilot of another airplane that the airplane had crashed. He further stated that while he could not hear the airplane's engine noise clearly because of a nearby highway, the engine noise was constant and he did not hear any power interruptions until after the impact.

The passenger reported that the flight instructor told him that he had his feet on the brakes during the takeoff roll, and to place his feet flat on the floor, which he did. After takeoff, the flight instructor told him that the engine "wasn't making power." The flight instructor called "MAYDAY" and was trying to return to the airport when the airplane suddenly impacted the ground.

The airplane struck and came to rest on abandoned rail road tracks located about a 1/2-mile northwest of LDJ. All major portions of the airplane were accounted for at the accident site. The airplane was found upright, with the nose down about 45 degrees. The right wing was displaced aft and folded underneath the fuselage. The empennage was separated about 4 feet forward of the rudder and was resting partially on the ground.

The airplane was powered by a Continental Motors Inc. IO-240-B3, 125-horspower engine, equipped with a wooden two-bladed Sensenich propeller assembly. Initial examination of the engine did not reveal any catastrophic preimpact mechanical failures. The lower front portion of the crankcase was fractured consistent with impact with the ground. One propeller blade was fractured at the hub, and the second propeller blade was separated about 2 feet outboard of the hub. Several small propeller blade fragments were observed scattered around the accident site. The engine was retained for further examination.

The airplane was manufactured in 2005. According to the operator, it had been operated for about 37 hours since its most recent annual inspection, which was performed on May 10, 2013, and the engine had been operated for 1,984 hours since new.
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Thanks god the passenger lived I was curious about that! So that's the end of their research they won't figure out why it lost power and couldn't climb.
Lady who owns my school said when u lose power on climb out u shouldn't turn it's a big no no?
 
NTSB said:
The passenger reported that the flight instructor told him that he had his feet on the brakes during the takeoff roll, and to place his feet flat on the floor, which he did. After takeoff, the flight instructor told him that the engine "wasn't making power." The flight instructor called "MAYDAY" and was trying to return to the airport when the airplane suddenly impacted the ground.
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It sounds as though the CFI noticed poor acceleration during the takeoff roll, but he mis-attributed it to the student supposedly stepping on the brakes, and so he failed to abort the takeoff.
 
marcoseddi said:
Thanks god the passenger lived I was curious about that! So that's the end of their research they won't figure out why it lost power and couldn't climb.
Lady who owns my school said when u lose power on climb out u shouldn't turn it's a big no no?
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It's only a preliminary report, Marc.

-Rich
 
MachFly said:
That just ****es me off, WTF is a nose dive? I watched some video last night where they interviewed a firefighter and he said "it was definitely some sort of nose dive." Is that his professional opinion? Those guys don't know **** and shouldn't be talking.
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What is your objection here? Nosedive may not be aviation jargon, but journalists and the general public are under no obligation to speak pilot-ese just because they're talking about an airplane.

I think you do know what the ordinary English meaning of nosedive is. But if not, the dictionary is your friend:

NOSEDIVE 1: a downward nose-first plunge of a flying object (as an airplane)

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nosedive
 
acrophile said:
It sounds as though the CFI noticed poor acceleration during the takeoff roll, but he mis-attributed it to the student supposedly stepping on the brakes, and so he failed to abort the takeoff.
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...and fell victim to the overwhelming temptation to get back to the airport.

"The flight instructor called "MAYDAY" and was trying to return to the airport when the airplane suddenly impacted the ground."



I guess as much as we think we won't,
none of us knows for sure what we'll do, until we're in those shoes!

Prayers for him and his family.

Glad the student survived and I hope they find out the actual cause, so he doesn't blame himself for the accident.

What a horrible way to begin an intro flight:sad:
 
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redtail said:
...and fell victim to the overwhelming temptation to get back to the airport.:
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It's hard to know exactly what options were available once the plane was aloft and not climbing (but not entirely without power).

But the clearest mistake would have been to continue the takeoff roll after noticing poor acceleration.
 
Wow... trained at that field. Did not know the CFI.

A coworker lives few blocks away from a crash site. Even if you look at Google Maps, the empty lot between runway and impact (railroad) is full of junk. So there's no suitable landing spot. I do remember seeing this plane at the airport. Sad....
 
Sobering to think that an experienced CFI can ball it up when the chips are down. RIP. The bell tolls for us all.
 
acrophile said:
What is your objection here? Nosedive may not be aviation jargon, but journalists and the general public are under no obligation to speak pilot-ese just because they're talking about an airplane.

I think you do know what the ordinary English meaning of nosedive is. But if not, the dictionary is your friend:

NOSEDIVE 1: a downward nose-first plunge of a flying object (as an airplane)

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nosedive
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My objections is that you have people who don't know **** trying to sound like NTSB investigators.

Regarding the definition, I seriously doubt that he just pushed the stick down and waited until the plane crashed.
 
Regarding the reports. When the report said that he tried to turn back to the field, he turned in the direction of that GM plant. I don't think it's possible to find out his exact intentions, but it's likely he didn't just plan on doing a 180 and coming back.
 
marcoseddi said:
Lady who owns my school said when u lose power on climb out u shouldn't turn it's a big no no?
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It depends on altitude and what outs you have around you.

This is why its good to simulate these things with a CFI, don't take anecdotal "knowledge" as gospel.
 
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