Plane crash Gillespie Field, San Diego

Den60 said:
Yeah, that is something I was thinking. Oh, I'm a rye drinker.

These guys were based just a couple hangar rows down from me. One nurse was identified. Her husband recently retired as a fire chief in Oceanside, Tina Ward.
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I like rye as well. We can have a drink in their memory. It’s a lot easier to make these mistakes than some realize.
 
Lindberg said:
IFR question since I'm not rated: What do you do if you've already cancelled IFR and have to go around, but that's going to take you into IMC? I would regard that as an emergency, but would tower clear you?
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You would execute the publish missed because you did not cancel IFR prior to landing without appropriate weather to fly legally and safely in VFR.
 
I have to say that I work at SEE. I can look out my window to the East for the approaches to 27R and 27L. Most jet traffic seem to be using at least a laterally stabilized approach coming over Crest (I have a flight tracker on my computer pretty much always) on the LOC, this is into the longest runway, 27R/9l. Not often for 9L unless they don't need thrust reversers as I would hear that. I've taken off and landed in both directions, for 9L it was when we had "Santa Ana" winds. Yep, was strange, just like when they do so at SAN. I have seen some jets during daytime and in clear weather do what this pilot tried to do, and always felt it to increase risk significantly. Doing it at night, in bad weather and the risk versus reward benefit swings widely to the former. I will admit, I am no longer current and never got an IFR rating. I used to fly 172s into SEE, mostly daytime and mostly landing on 27L. However, I did, at times, when asked by ATC to switch on base to 27R, which put the elevated terrain of "Rattlesnake Mountain" significantly my windscreen though more towards western end which was not nearly as intimidating as what this guy turned into. To me, turning into that mountain, at low altitude, low speed, and in bad weather, at night in an aircraft that doesn't like to be flown slow was just a huge mistake.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I like rye as well. We can have a drink in their memory. It’s a lot easier to make these mistakes than some realize.
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I'll toast them and you. Yeah, it just takes one mistake. God bless them.
 
And I have to say that SEE needs to upgrade to a complete precision ILS system. We have seen a huge increase in jet traffic over the last few years, and it is one of the busiest airports in the Western US. Most definitely the busiest in the San Diego County. We are already expanding into the part of the field that housed "Cajon Speedway." Added a buried retention pond and now some transient parking. El Cajon has built some hotels to accommodate the airport as well for transient operations. From what I hear, the county is just waiting on someone willing to invest in it. Most of our major lease holders are a bit long in the tooth to do that.
 
I think coming from the west you'd have to go over Miramar. Read earlier you will never get that approach. Suspect that's why no ILS in that direction. From the east, I suspect that an ILS would never pass TERPS, which is why you don't have an LPV already, just a LOC with a rather steep descent angle. From the NW you have a short runway for big iron and older bizjets w/o buckets. They may have done all they could.
 
Den60 said:
And I have to say that SEE needs to upgrade to a complete precision ILS system. We have seen a huge increase in jet traffic over the last few years, and it is one of the busiest airports in the Western US. Most definitely the busiest in the San Diego County. We are already expanding into the part of the field that housed "Cajon Speedway." Added a buried retention pond and now some transient parking. El Cajon has built some hotels to accommodate the airport as well for transient operations. From what I hear, the county is just waiting on someone willing to invest in it. Most of our major lease holders are a bit long in the tooth to do that.
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They can’t put a precision approach glide slope in on 9/27 due to terrain.

And while SEE is certainly busy, it’s never been MYF busy.
 


and Dan G has a video posted on this too
 
SEE's biggest benefit is being a 'usually-VMC' haven for non IR people coming back from cross country flights in the evening when the marine layer rolls in earlier than expected. The cafe is okay too.. but Casa Machado and Aero Squadron are better

Ironically, after becoming IR there were a few occasions were SEE's garbage minimum's and approaches meant that I ended up with the ILS into MYF
 
Fearless Tower said:
They can’t put a precision approach glide slope in on 9/27 due to terrain.

And while SEE is certainly busy, it’s never been MYF busy.
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Those on SEE now how to take a test in order to drive onto the property. We have to watch a video which I did last week SEE is the busiest airport in the county per that video.
 
Fearless Tower said:
They can’t put a precision approach glide slope in on 9/27 due to terrain.

And while SEE is certainly busy, it’s never been MYF busy.
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If you have something to reference this I'd love to see it. Not questioning it. SEE is expanding its operations and mostly for jets.
 
Den60 said:
And I have to say that SEE needs to upgrade to a complete precision ILS system. We have seen a huge increase in jet traffic over the last few years, and it is one of the busiest airports in the Western US. Most definitely the busiest in the San Diego County. We are already expanding into the part of the field that housed "Cajon Speedway." Added a buried retention pond and now some transient parking. El Cajon has built some hotels to accommodate the airport as well for transient operations. From what I hear, the county is just waiting on someone willing to invest in it. Most of our major lease holders are a bit long in the tooth to do that.
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There is absolutely no possible way an ILS can or will be installed at SEE, and I don't think the airport can ever meet TERPS for an LPV

Den60 said:
Those on SEE now how to take a test in order to drive onto the property. We have to watch a video which I did last week SEE is the busiest airport in the county per that video.
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SEE isn't, MYF is. MYF tower is in line to be upgraded to a level higher than even SAN, which relies on the passenger metric to keep its level.
 
Not that it matters to the thread, but I feel like I've walked into a 'who's airport is cooler' competition

Anyway... busy can be measured across many metrics, passenger volume, takeoffs and landings, distinct planes coming and going, etc., but since we're talking GA it seems that's the most relevant. Now, grain of salt as I'm not sure where SkyVector gets its data from but we can likely agree that it's reasonable accurate, based on that MYF is the winner by really any metric.. however SEE does have the most single engine planes based on the field so there's that

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What SEE has going for it, it’s “biggest benefit”, is being a civilized place in the aircraft ownership and community sense. Lots of maintenance and infrastructure, lots of people who know things and can do things especially if your plane is something other than the generic consumer aircraft types. The other airports in the area, especially Brown and Montgomery which are SD City (versus County) run are by comparison poorly managed and unfriendly, with limited aircraft community and relatively limited capabilities. Just the basics avionics stuff, maintenance of standard types and so on. MYF in particular is like visiting a rental car outlet or new car dealer, versus being analogous to a high performance custom car shop.

What SEE obviously does not have is flat local terrain, which means that the options to
arrive IFR when ceilings are very low are limited to non-existent. For many of us that is a non-issue, for others it is and should be an issue. As Tantalum points out, this is offset by relatively good weather compared to the airports closer to the shoreline. It’s not exactly Flabob but it’s geographically and culturally a step in that direction, although with a great deal more activity (i.e. 600 or whatever operations per day).
 
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SEE does feel more 'laid back' - which is nice. MYF has a more corporate feel..
 
Fearless Tower said:
SEE has a ton more hangar and parking space than MYF
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With expansion of some quarter more or so available, just waiting on the guy who want to develop it. The Feds have been spending money here, I see it out my door. SEE already is the busiest airport in the county and also has the most aircraft based there in the county. MYF doesn't have much in the way of expansion options. Just in the last few years, I have watched jet traffic here at SEE increase tenfold. From what I have heard, expansion is geared towards accommodating transient private jet traffic. El Cajon has even built a hotel at the old El Cajon Police Department site to accommodate the airport.
 
Tusayan said:
What SEE has going for it, it’s “biggest benefit”, is being a civilized place in the aircraft ownership and community sense. Lots of maintenance and infrastructure, lots of people who know things and can do things especially if your plane is something other than the generic consumer aircraft types. The other airports in the area, especially Brown and Montgomery which are SD City (versus County) run are by comparison poorly managed and unfriendly, with limited aircraft community and relatively limited capabilities. Just the basics avionics stuff, maintenance of standard types and so on. MYF in particular is like visiting a rental car outlet or new car dealer, versus being analogous to a high performance custom car shop.

What SEE obviously does not have is flat local terrain, which means that the options to
arrive IFR when ceilings are very low are limited to non-existent. For many of us that is a non-issue, for others it is and should be an issue. As Tantalum points out, this is offset by relatively good weather compared to the airports closer to the shoreline. It’s not exactly Flabob but it’s geographically and culturally a step in that direction, although with a great deal more activity (i.e. 600 or whatever operations per day).
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MYF has plenty of maintenance and avionics. At least 5 shops, including multiple avionics repair stations.

SEE's benefits are limited to cheap parking, more frequent options to get in safely VFR and the County usually being better about doing business with the little guy and not having made a pretty terrible deal to give half the ramp to corporate jerks who have no idea how to do business with the people who buy most of their fuel. This is counter balanced by the County tending to kowtow more to NIMBYs, the approaches sucking and much more of a cowboy culture that can lead to some d-headed stuff in the pattern when tower is closed. MYF is also much closer to anywhere desirable in the area, unless you are looking to gamble.

Fearless Tower said:
SEE has a ton more hangar and parking space than MYF
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Parking, IDK. MYF has a lot of parking. Hangar, I definitely buy.

Den60 said:
With expansion of some quarter more or so available, just waiting on the guy who want to develop it. The Feds have been spending money here, I see it out my door. SEE already is the busiest airport in the county and also has the most aircraft based there in the county. MYF doesn't have much in the way of expansion options. Just in the last few years, I have watched jet traffic here at SEE increase tenfold. From what I have heard, expansion is geared towards accommodating transient private jet traffic. El Cajon has even built a hotel at the old El Cajon Police Department site to accommodate the airport.
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SEE is absolutely not the busiest airport in the county. @Tantalum posted the statistics and this is backed up by other data.
 
N1120A said:
SEE is absolutely not the busiest airport in the county. @Tantalum posted the statistics and this is backed up by other data.
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I stand corrected, however from 2013-2018 SEE had 1,256,343 total operations (595/day) and MYF had 1,251,968 total operations (593/day). Over 2019-2020 SEE totaled 411,183 total operations (584/day) and MYF had 264,649 total operations (752/day). I can't account for the changes and I expect the data used in the training video that I was using was outdated.
 
Gillespie training operations for overseas students were a significant part of the annual traffic volume prior to 2020 and are now starting to recover again. It will come back. Obviously no reasonable amount of increase in daily Biz Jet operations will make up for the numbers lost when the international
flight schools are inactive.

BTW, something is screwy with the 2019-2020 numbers in the post directly above.
 
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Tusayan said:
Gillespie training operations for overseas students were a significant part of the annual traffic volume prior to 2020 and are now starting to recover again. It will come back. Obviously no reasonable amount of increase in daily Biz Jet operations will make up for the numbers lost when the international
flight schools are inactive.
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International students don't account for all of that volume, because those same students frequently bail from the pattern at SEE and go to RNM, CRQ, SDM or MYF. MYF is also on essentially every IFR checkride in the area.
 
Tusayan said:
Gillespie training operations for overseas students were a significant part of the annual traffic volume prior to 2020 and are now starting to recover again. It will come back. Obviously no reasonable amount of increase in daily Biz Jet operations will make up for the numbers lost when the international
flight schools are inactive.

BTW, something is screwy with the 2019-2020 numbers in the post directly above.
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I haven't noticed as many Chinese students around but since they closed Airport Rd to Joe Crosson Dr I drive into work differently and the students may be staying somewhere closer to the west side of the field now. As for the numbers, I took them off the County and City pages for each airport. See only goes back to 2013 but MYF goes back much farther. They do seem to gel with the AirNav numbers however.
 
N1120A said:
International students don't account for all of that volume, because those same students frequently bail from the pattern at SEE and go to RNM, CRQ, SDM or MYF. MYF is also on essentially every IFR checkride in the area.
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My initial inclination, seeing a drop from 227.7K in 2019 to 183.4K in 2020 at SEE, was that it was due to COVID. However, that doesn't explain the huge jump in operations at MYF.
 
How well is that tracked, and by whom? If I rent a 172 and do 9 touch and go's in the pattern does that count as one flight? 9 flights? is it even counted?

Some of the airports don't pass the 'sniff test' - for example I camped at Agua Caliente a few years ago for 3 nights.. according to https://skyvector.com/airport/L54/Agua-Caliente-Springs-Airport there are 3,300 GA operations per year, or about 9 per day. I tell you I did not hear or see a single plane for 3 days there.. so...
 
Den60 said:
MYF
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Crown and Coast are really expanding. Both have big beautiful new buildings and facilities and Crown took over the old Gibbs building. It seems both SEE and MYF are competing to keep traffic out of CRQ and SAN
 
Larger biz jets aren’t operated from MYF, although the Lear 35 accident flight would have been OK with MYF as an alternate. The MYF noise sensors might’ve been an issue on the subsequent departure, at least so I’m told by a Lear 35 pilot who has operated there.

Given the longer runway SEE gets larger jets (Gulfstreams etc) and is more convenient for many people traveling on those planes than Palomar or Brown. When they extended the 52 freeway all the way to the airport some years ago it contributed a lot to the trend - from the freeway to boarding the jet at Circle Air is about two minutes. That’s why many biz jets operate at SEE despite the airport having no ILS.

SEE does see a lot of interesting jet hardware nowadays, e.g. Northrop F5s departing after rework, as well as the large, interesting and non-generic piston fleet. One of the P-51s based at SEE has been active recently which is fun to see.
 
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I saw an all white Dash-7, yes the four turboprop high wing land there once or twice
 
Tantalum said:
Crown and Coast are really expanding. Both have big beautiful new buildings and facilities and Crown took over the old Gibbs building. It seems both SEE and MYF are competing to keep traffic out of CRQ and SAN
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Take this for what it is worth, it is secondhand information, the guy I bought my business from used to play raquetball with Phil Mickleson's pilot. He told me that this pilot told PM that he refused to fly into CRQ because the runway was too short.

I think SAN would prefer as much traffic be diverted as possible, just my opinion, but being the 8th largest city in the US with an airport that has just one runway means it is already stressed. SEE has the longest runway of any other airport in the county. The larger corporate can't even take off here at max weight. However, what I am hearing from those on the airport and in local government is that the expansion of SEE is all about jets.
 
Brown Field (KSDM) has a 7,972 feet foot long runway (about 2600 ft longer than Gillespie) and downtown San Diego access from Brown is pretty good. The problem is that unlike Gillespie, Palomar and Lindbergh it’s run by the City of San Diego, which is inept at airport management. As at MYF the City has a history of discouraging development at Brown, and the facilities are rough.
 
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Tusayan said:
Larger biz jets aren’t operated from MYF, although the Lear 35 accident flight would have been OK with MYF as an alternate. The MYF noise sensors might’ve been an issue on the subsequent departure, at least so I’m told by a Lear 35 pilot who has operated there.

Given the longer runway SEE gets larger jets (Gulfstreams etc) and is more convenient for many people traveling on those planes than Palomar or Brown. When they extended the 52 freeway all the way to the airport some years ago it contributed a lot to the trend - from the freeway to boarding the jet at Circle Air is about two minutes. That’s why many biz jets operate at SEE despite the airport having no ILS.

SEE does see a lot of interesting jet hardware nowadays, e.g. Northrop F5s departing after rework, as well as the large, interesting and non-generic piston fleet. One of the P-51s based at SEE has been active recently which is fun to see.
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Technically, they are CF-5s (peeked at their plates while they were on the truck), Canadian made initially. And that work is being done in my hangar and some adjacent hangars where they are being rebuilt. Before that they were reworking jets that looked like the old A4 made by SIAI MARCHETTI. Sorry, I don't recall the model but it may be the S211. How they get away with painting them, I will never know. They have no paint booth. If you use more than 1 gallon of paint on the field annually you are supposed to have a booth and be subject to inspection.

I used to live in Santee, Sky Ranch which is on Rattlesnake Mountain right along the path to 27R. We consider Santee to be "The Gateway to La Jolla." LOL. But, SEE has plenty of quick access to freeways. We ain't out in the sticks. 20 minutes to downtown if traffic is light.

P-51s are nice, but we have an A2 on the field. Now that is an impressive single engine prop plane, just incredibly huge. Other side of the field from me so I usually only see it from a distance. From what I understand, its' owner is extremely rich and has many other classic airplanes. I used to have a T-38 in my hangar. The A-2 dwarfed it.
 
Rgbeard said:
Ummm, SEE has the longest runway of any other airport in the County?

Are you disregarding Brown Field's almost 8,000-foot main runway somehow? (7972')
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Yep, didn't realize it is that long, however, way too remote, right against the border with Mexico, issues with air traffic being so close to Tijuana's airport right next door. The have been discussion in using that airport for freight ops to take a load off of SAN, but this would have to be done with smaller aircraft. UPS has their major hub in San Diego in Chula Vista so being close is nice, but what aircraft do they operate that could be feasible out of Brown?

The long runway is nice, but 40 minutes at the best from the city hub. Double that at the least for traffic. Also, not much in services there as compared to either SEE or MYF.
 
Den60 said:
The long runway is nice, but 40 minutes at the best from the city hub.
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It is 23 minutes (19 miles) from Brown Field to downtown San Diego.

(9 minutes from Signature at Lindbergh)

(17 minutes from Montgomery)

(21 minutes from Circle Air at Gillespie)

(36 minutes from Palomar)
 
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Once again, @Den60 seems prone to exaggeration.

I fly in/out of SDM all the time, keep a truck there, and have zero issues with the small amount of MMTJ traffic.

I don't know what the UPS conversation has to do with anything.

The 40 minute drive is clearly a smokescreen, or times quoted intentionally during high traffic times to mislead the reader.

From keys-in-ignition to good Mexican food at Old Town San Diego shows as 23 minutes right NOW on Apple maps (4:21PM)
 
Rgbeard said:
Once again, @Den60 seems prone to exaggeration.

I fly in/out of SDM all the time, keep a truck there, and have zero issues with the small amount of MMTJ traffic.

I don't know what the UPS conversation has to do with anything.

The 40 minute drive is clearly a smokescreen, or times quoted intentionally during high traffic times to mislead the reader.

From keys-in-ignition to good Mexican food at Old Town San Diego shows as 23 minutes right NOW on Apple maps (4:21PM)
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Well well, I was wondering whose Planet Saturn bus was always parked there. Now we know.
 
Sorry to get off topic, but it seems pretty far off already. What do hangars go for at Brown? Thanks
 
Den60 said:
P-51s are nice, but we have an A2 on the field. Now that is an impressive single engine prop plane, just incredibly huge. Other side of the field from me so I usually only see it from a distance. From what I understand, its' owner is extremely rich and has many other classic airplanes. I used to have a T-38 in my hangar. The A-2 dwarfed it.
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A-2? You mean an Antonov An-2?
 
Tusayan said:
It is 23 minutes (19 miles) from Brown Field to downtown San Diego.

(9 minutes from Signature at Lindbergh)

(17 minutes from Montgomery)

(21 minutes from Circle Air at Gillespie)

(36 minutes from Palomar)
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With no traffic. Otay is right in between two of the top 3 border crossings in the US. I live here. Going North/South is much worse than East/West for the most part in San Diego. Again, there has been some discussion of moving more freight through SDM to take pressure off of SAN. However, the runway doesn't currently accommodate larger aircraft and lengthening it doesn't appear to be an option.
 
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