Plane circling over the gulf of Mexico

We may still know....the pilot hasn't been reported dead yet, right?
 
N747JB said:
I think it's 30,000, but I don't go above 25,000, keeps cabin under 10K. I don't know too many people that fly 421's above 23,000 on a regular basis. Tough on engines, cabin altitude is high, I'm guessing, without looking it up that 27,000 gives a cabin altitude of 11,500-12,000:eek: that's pretty thin air for an old fat guy like me.:D
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It is 30k on the C model. But under normal circumstances RVSM limits that altitude. I did 280 once to get on top of weather. It flew like absolute crap at that altitude. But mostly I flew it between 16.5 and 210.

Does anyone know if the aircraft in question had the winglets on it. The winglet ed aircraft generate better climb performance numbers.
 
LearDriver said:
It is 30k on the C model. But under normal circumstances RVSM limits that altitude. I did 280 once to get on top of weather. It flew like absolute crap at that altitude. But mostly I flew it between 16.5 and 210.

Does anyone know if the aircraft in question had the winglets on it. The winglet ed aircraft generate better climb performance numbers.
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Pics didn't show winglets, I looked on Google image, but don't know how to post them here from my iPad.:rolleyes:
 
Inverted said:
Well, if thats measured as groundspeed it could be coming into a headwind/tailwind causing that much of a difference.
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Exactly. The only speed ATC has is ground speed. Flying a circle would look just like that with the plane at a steady speed. The fact that the altitude is more or less stable means the aircraft speed was more or less stable if pilot is ooc.
 
I had a partial decompression flying a 421C. Flying over western Colorado at FL230 I believe. Felt my ears pop, looked down at the pressurization controller and the cabin was climbing about 2,000fpm. Descended to 16K (minimum for terrain) and the cabin stabilized at about 10,000'. Turned our to be some connection that had popped off.
It was night, and I wonder if I would have noticed it if it had been very gradual and my ears hadn't popped. Scary. We humans need that certain partial pressure of O2 or look out.
I am sorry for this doctor and his family.
 
I don't know about you guys that have also flown the airplane, but that O2 system on/off and mask setup is is a complete joke. I always flew with the mask hanging from my neck above 12K. That way I only had to yank on the O2 knob and hold the mask up to my face.
 
Never having flown a pressurized aircraft - do they seriously not have a big loud alarm that goes off when cabin altitude rises above 10k ft? If not, how do the designers sleep at night?
 
pericynthion said:
Never having flown a pressurized aircraft - do they seriously not have a big loud alarm that goes off when cabin altitude rises above 10k ft? No. Sometimes a tiny one that squeaks at 13k.

If not, how do the designers sleep at night?
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Very well, if they don't have to fly the pllanes they design.
 
I think in the Cheyenne III you get a master alarm at about 11,000
Wayne, the circles are a little odd. Just wondering, if he had a 430/530 and he entered JUST the first fix (I think REDFIN) and was going to put in the next fix when reaching REDFIN and he had GPSS and he was in the NAV mode, what happens when he gets to the waypoint? He would have no magenta line for the GPSS. Would that cause the circles? Just asking.
 
Apropos of nothing, if you wanted to have your Cessna 421 circle indefinitely over the water, how would you set that up? Could you set up the particular AP in this type to, say, hold a standard-rate turn? Not trying to be cute, just curious. I do not have any experience with cabin-class twins.
 
Alpha, in my previous post I posed a question about the circles and a possible explanation. The AP in a cabin class twin will have little difference than an AP in a sophistcated single. I too find the circles confusing.
Maybe John will chime in on this or somebody that understands the software in the system better than I do.
 
ronnieh said:
Alpha, in my previous post I posed a question about the circles and a possible explanation. The AP in a cabin class twin will have little difference than an AP in a sophistcated single. I too find the circles confusing.
Maybe John will chime in on this or somebody that understands the software in the system better than I do.
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Most planes I have used the A/P on were prone to going into uncommanded turns, this surprises me not in the least.
 
I don't understand how the USCG couldn't have recovered the pilot from the plane....they knew where it was going down, they knew approximately when it would go down, and they knew that he would need a rescue.

How did they not make contact before the plane sunk? This is disgusting.
 
SkyHog said:
I don't understand how the USCG couldn't have recovered the pilot from the plane....they knew where it was going down, they knew approximately when it would go down, and they knew that he would need a rescue.

How did they not make contact before the plane sunk? This is disgusting.
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Yes, I found that a bit disturbing also given that they knew exactly where it was at all times and had a very good idea of when it would run out of fuel. I can only guess that the necessary helicopter resources were just not in range. It does not surprise me that surface vessels could not reach him in time.

edit: earlier I hoped that the airplane would self-ditch and that seemed to have happened. Too bad about the aftermath.
 
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denverpilot said:
On the FlightAware page, the aircraft leveled pretty sharply just above 25000 for a while. Then it starts to drift upward. (Or flew into a pressure change slowly without an altimeter setting change...)
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There are no altimeter setting changes above FL180.
 
Actually Steven at FL180 and above.
Henning, you need to try to find a little higher quality of aircraft or at least better AP's:)
 
Pilot slumped on controls, foot jammed on rudder, no lateral mode selected, manual turn knob moved slightly (out of detent) would be my starter list.
ronnieh said:
I think in the Cheyenne III you get a master alarm at about 11,000
Wayne, the circles are a little odd. Just wondering, if he had a 430/530 and he entered JUST the first fix (I think REDFIN) and was going to put in the next fix when reaching REDFIN and he had GPSS and he was in the NAV mode, what happens when he gets to the waypoint? He would have no magenta line for the GPSS. Would that cause the circles? Just asking.
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wabower said:
Pilot slumped on controls, foot jammed on rudder, no lateral mode selected, manual turn knob moved slightly (out of detent) would be my starter list.
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Some of those of those would seem to me to lead to a spiral or at least an increasing turn rate, not that "beautiful" helix. That is a very constant turn rate lasting for what, hours, and displaced only by prevailing wind aloft, IMO.
 
At this stage, anything is possible.. The guy could have owed alot of people ALOT of money and bailed out during the climb while over the gulf, after setting the A/P up with a bizzare course and swam to the boat that was waiting to pick him up.:dunno::confused:..

Remember the hi flyin Malibu Driver.:idea:


My money is still on a medical issue though.
 
Try any or all of them and see what happens. Or whatever else you think might have caused it. At this point it's all guesswork but you've gotta start somewhere.

alfadog said:
Some of those of those would seem to me to lead to a spiral or at least an increasing turn rate, not that "beautiful" helix. That is a very constant turn rate lasting for what, hours, and displaced only by prevailing wind aloft, IMO.
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N801BH said:
At this stage, anything is possible.. The guy could have owed alot of people ALOT of money and bailed out during the climb while over the gulf, after setting the A/P up with a bizzare course and swam to the boat that was waiting to pick him up.:dunno::confused:..

Remember the hi flyin Malibu Driver.:idea:


My money is still on a medical issue though.
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Oh, I don't care to speculate about the pilot. I am just wondering what AP system he could have had that would allow you to set the plane up to fly, say, a standard-rate turn until it ran out of fuel. Not speculating that that happened.
 
alfadog said:
Yes, I found that a bit disturbing also given that they knew exactly where it was at all times and had a very good idea of when it would run out of fuel. I can only guess that the necessary helicopter resources were just not in range. It does not surprise me that surface vessels could not reach him in time.

edit: earlier I hoped that the airplane would self-ditch and that seemed to have happened. Too bad about the aftermath.
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They could have staged helos in range. In fact, there were likely commercial operators in the region. Thing is, that all costs money and puts known live pilots at risk. This was not a rescue at this point, it was a recovery. You don't risk the living unreasonably to recover the dead, not unless their family wants to pay for it.
 
wabower said:
Try any or all of them and see what happens. Or whatever else you think might have caused it. At this point it's all guesswork but you've gotta start somewhere.
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Well I know that if I slump on the control and hold aileron that the turn rate will increase. I think that, at least in my ancient Arrow, it is possible that a slight displacement to the turn selector on the AP would do something like this - have to try that one.
 
Henning said:
They could have staged helos in range. In fact, there were likely commercial operators in the region. Thing is, that all costs money and puts known live pilots at risk. This was not a rescue at this point, it was a recovery. You don't risk the living unreasonably to recover the dead, not unless their family wants to pay for it.
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Putting "known live pilots at risk" is what the USCG is supposed to do in these cases. Though I do not see the excessive risk - this is what rescue crews are trained to do.
 
alfadog said:
Well I know that if I slump on the control and hold aileron that the turn rate will increase. I think that, at least in my ancient Arrow, it is possible that a slight displacement to the turn selector on the AP would do something like this - have to try that one.
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Ya .. but... The plane made an initial right turn, then four loops to the left.. Then corrected for just a bit and continued left turns till it went in the drink...

Slumped over pilot makes the most sense to me...
 
How do you know anything at this point?

alfadog said:
Well I know that if I slump on the control and hold aileron that the turn rate will increase. I think that, at least in my ancient Arrow, it is possible that a slight displacement to the turn selector on the AP would do something like this - have to try that one.
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alfadog said:
Putting "known live pilots at risk" is what the USCG is supposed to do in these cases. Though I do not see the excessive risk - this is what rescue crews are trained to do.
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No, it's not. All SAR cases in the USCG go through a risk/reward analysis.

I clearly remember a guidance letter from our flight surgeon. The question was "do we launch a helo for a cardiac arrest where CPR's being performed on the boat"?

The answer (after a page or so of well thought-out reasoning) was "no, unless there are special circumstances like the victim being a child or hypothermia" that would either make recovery possible (hypothermia) or quell an outcry from the uninformed (the child). The odds of a successful recovery otherwise given the launch, travel, and transfer times (even if the CG person is trained in advanced life support) are practically zero.

Every gallon of Jet-A burned trying to recover a dead body is a gallon out of the budget that could be used to save a live person in the future.

I'm not going to second-guess the USCG decisions - I know from first-hand experience that every pilot and petty officer at the air facilities wants a happy ending for every case. I also know that the commanders have to make difficult judgement calls like this sometimes, and they do their very best and overall do an outstanding job.

Also, keep in mind that a news chopper filming the wreck is MAKING MONEY for the person paying the bill for the chopper. A USCG helicopter retrieving a dead body is SPENDING MONEY (of which they have only so much).
 
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Possibly the airplane was only slightly out of trim? Suppose the left turning tendency was being compensated for by the autopilot until it over-compensated with the right turn and shut itself off. Then the left turning took over and caused the corkscrew. Otherwise, the plane was in good trim.

Just guesses on my part. I don't know whether he has autopilot, whether it was on, what type it might be, or how it might work.
 
Do you have to switch tanks in the 421? If he was burning from one tank then that could cause and out of balance condition and result in the spirals.
 
alfadog said:
Putting "known live pilots at risk" is what the USCG is supposed to do in these cases. Though I do not see the excessive risk - this is what rescue crews are trained to do.
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Rescue, not recovery. Rescue saves live people, recovery brings back dead bodies.
 
MadseasoN said:
Do you have to switch tanks in the 421? If he was burning from one tank then that could cause and out of balance condition and result in the spirals.
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Prior to the C wing without 'tip tanks', yes, and you often have to pump fuel around depending on optional aftermarket tanks. The wet wing planes are one selection per wing/engine. In the 414A and 402A form IIRC (maybe others :dunno:) they ended up with the butt end of a tough AD; not the 421C though.
 
Having only flown a skyhawk and never above 10k, I was wondering. Do you guys carry supplemental oxygen in pressurized aircraft? Is it required as a backup? If not, wouldn't it be a good idea?
 
redtail said:
Having only flown a skyhawk and never above 10k, I was wondering. Do you guys carry supplemental oxygen in pressurized aircraft? Is it required as a backup? If not, wouldn't it be a good idea?
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Yes, there is supplemental pilot O2 available, often with a quick donning mask.
 
Henning said:
Rescue, not recovery. Rescue saves live people, recovery brings back dead bodies.
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So..... I guess the next question is.... are they recovering the plane & body :dunno:..

And,,, if anyone will know.. Henning will... How deep is the Gulf where the plane went in ?:dunno::confused:
 
Henning said:
Yes, there is supplemental pilot O2 available, often with a quick donning mask.
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Ok, that's what I thought. Next question, is there any way to automatically supply the pilot with oxygen if there's a slow undetected loss of pressurization? Might sound silly but what about putting on the mask above 10k just in case.
I know this is not a really common problem but I don't know, I'm just trying to think of a solution.
 
N801BH said:
So..... I guess the next question is.... are they recovering the plane & body :dunno:..

And,,, if anyone will know.. Henning will... How deep is the Gulf where the plane went in ?:dunno::confused:
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I'll have to look into it closer, but between 400' and 22,000' best I can tell now. More likely deeper than shallow.
 
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