Pitch for Speed, Power for Altitude Mentality Question

[douglas393]

Thinking too hard. Pitch controls airspeed engines are annoying.

They maybe annoying to some but I find the purr of my engine to be comforting. They only time I do not want to here it is when I am stopped in front of a tie down, or my hangar, otherwise annoy me as much as you want.

Do not get me wrong, I have nothing against gliders, and in fact until my wife informed me that the heeling of the sailboat really bothered her I was a diehard sailor and found the whole idea of powerboating absurd. There is nothing more soothing than the sounds of a sailboat sailing, except maybe those heard in a glider. Unfortunately, the requirements of my nonflying life prevents me from flying a glider.

 

[rbridges]

So it is one thing for me to know to adjust my pitch for speed and adjust my power for controlling altitude, but it is another thing to get it wired into my brain and put it to practice.

How did you get that "pitch for speed, power for altitude" mentality wired into your brain and put it to practice?

Was your brain at first wired to "pitch for altitude, power for speed"?

I always pitched for altitude, especially when descending even though I was told not to do that. A few years ago, we had a local pilot fatality. The general consensus was that he was trying to lose altitude and get down fast, so he pitched down and exceeded his Vne. He had a v tail bonanza and one of the rear control surfaces ripped off.

When descending, I pull power and try to keep my airspeed fairly constant.

 

[douglas393]

I always pitched for altitude, especially when descending even though I was told not to do that. A few years ago, we had a local pilot fatality. The general consensus was that he was trying to lose altitude and get down fast, so he pitched down and exceeded his Vne. He had a v tail bonanza and one of the rear control surfaces ripped off.

When descending, I pull power and try to keep my airspeed fairly constant.

When I was training I was taught that small changes in altitude are better corrected by pitch control. Large changes by power. I think the merits of the discussions such as this about pitch and power are really important in learning how to fly safely, but I must admit that every time I have read one of these pitch/power threads or articles I always come out with the same conclusion...just fly the plane. If you use anything to the extreme and forget your basic training foundations you are more likely to have a less than optimal outcome. For example, we could extended the power for altitude argument that the fastest way to lose altitude would be just to pull the mixture and turn off the engine, which I would suggest is probably almost what your local pilot did when he pitched so far down he exceeded Vne. To me, flying is a balance of forces, and the goal is to keep that balance in a way that it provides you with correct and safe combination of horizontal, vertical, and angular velocity, and too much of a good thing is not necessarily good.

 

[Bill Watson]

Thinking too hard. Pitch controls airspeed engines are annoying.

Yeah! That giant vibrator up front is just a noisy pain in the butt.

I drove a Maule
I flew gliders

 

[denverpilot]

I always pitched for altitude, especially when descending even though I was told not to do that. A few years ago, we had a local pilot fatality. The general consensus was that he was trying to lose altitude and get down fast, so he pitched down and exceeded his Vne. He had a v tail bonanza and one of the rear control surfaces ripped off.

When descending, I pull power and try to keep my airspeed fairly constant.

Know thy craft.

I pitch to come down, but you'd have to try really hard to exceed Vne in a descent in a 182. LOL.

I'm impressed I can even get it into the yellow arc.

 

[denverpilot]

For example, we could extended the power for altitude argument that the fastest way to lose altitude would be just to pull the mixture and turn off the engine, which I would suggest is probably almost what your local pilot did when he pitched so far down he exceeded Vne.

Nope. The pilot pitched down and left power UP to exceed Vne. You were doing good until there.

And the fastest way down is probably a spin, in most aircraft certified for such.

 

[Pappy]

If you constrain the glider comparison to flying an approach and landing, then the spoilers in a glider are acting as the throttle. Typically, I fly an approach from downwind to touchdown with spoilers half open (or that's the general plan). Half spoilers and pitch for airspeed....then if you need more lift or sink you have 50% "throttle" in either direction. Just no going around

I would highly encourage some dual in a glider for anyone. It can only make you a better pilot.

I am not a glider pilot so my thinking could be totally wrong and I am not trying to be argumentative, nor disagreeable, but for me the glider analogy does not really work for me, because you do not have any source of power on the glider, except for the initial tow and unless you have a power glider, your only source of "power" is altitude(provided by updrafts I would assume) and an appropriately vectored wind(I would think adds as well). So the only way to control speed is by increasing or decreasing your pitch as there is no power part of the equation. Now if you increase your pitch would not your glider climb(increased vertical airspeed) as well as the airspeed drops, and as you said if you decrease your pitch not only does airspeed increase, but your glider descends(decreased vertical airspeed). As for drag devices do they not control altitude by decreasing air speed and thus decreasing lift, or am I missing something there as well or are they changing the shape of the wing much like flaps and allowing the same amount of lift at a slower airspeed?

Maybe I am missing something, like I said I am not a glider pilot, but it seems to me that pitch in effect controls both horizontal airspeed, and vertical airspeed in this situation.

Maybe I should opt out and let people think I am ignorant and not let people know I am ignorant.

 

[douglas393]

Nope. The pilot pitched down and left power UP to exceed Vne. You were doing good until there.

And the fastest way down is probably a spin, in most aircraft certified for such.

You are right. My fingers sometimes type independent of my brain. Thanks for the correction.

 

[docmirror]

My three short sailplane lessons were a wealth of knowledge about energy management and pitch actions. I never left gliding distance of my take off airport, but it was still a great few hours of real hands-on understanding.

 

[ClimbnSink]

The way a winged vessel behaves doesn't change when you add a motor.

They maybe annoying to some but I find the purr of my engine to be comforting. They only time I do not want to here it is when I am stopped in front of a tie down, or my hangar, otherwise annoy me as much as you want.

Do not get me wrong, I have nothing against gliders, and in fact until my wife informed me that the heeling of the sailboat really bothered her I was a diehard sailor and found the whole idea of powerboating absurd. There is nothing more soothing than the sounds of a sailboat sailing, except maybe those heard in a glider. Unfortunately, the requirements of my nonflying life prevents me from flying a glider.

 

[douglas393]

The way a winged vessel behaves doesn't change when you add a motor.

Not sure I understand your point, but if it has to do with the statement of the requirements of my nonflying life prevents me from flying a glider, this has nothing to do with the way a winged vessel behaves, but has everything to do with my inability to determine beforehand when I can fly and cannot. Flying a glider requires people and time. Flying piston airplane requires myself, and less time.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Nothing personal dude. Pitch controls airspeed whether or not there is a motor attached. The only difference is with a motor we can go into mental gymnastics to pretend otherwise.

Not sure I understand your point, but if it has to do with the statement of the requirements of my nonflying life prevents me from flying a glider, this has nothing to do with the way a winged vessel behaves, but has everything to do with my inability to determine beforehand when I can fly and cannot. Flying a glider requires people and time. Flying piston airplane requires myself, and less time.

 

[douglas393]

Nothing personal dude. Pitch controls airspeed whether or not there is a motor attached. The only difference is with a motor we can go into mental gymnastics to pretend otherwise.

Nothing personal taken buddy. I do not think I ever said that pitch does not control airspeed, what I have said is that there are times in my motored aircraft I also seem to use throttle to control airspeed as well. If I am deluding myself in believing that is what I am doing by changing throttle and pitch to give me what I need, oh well, such is life, I think I can live with it. I think a lot of what this whole discussion of pitch for speed, and power for altitude, becomes semantics. When I fly the plane, I fly for a balance of pitch and power to provide me with the parameters I am looking for. Personally, I am not thinking about the physics of the situation, but what I need to do with the plane to get me from where I am to where I want to be. If that means changing throttle so be it, if that means changing pitch so be it. It's not a physics test for me, and if I am bliss in my ignorance as how it works, oh well. As long as I fly within the envelope of what my plane was designed to do I will be okay, even if my understanding of the why it works is incomplete.

One of the early lessons in life I learned was the more convinced you become that something you think you know is always true, the more likely you are to become disappointed.

 

[BillTIZ]

I am not a glider pilot so my thinking could be totally wrong and I am not trying to be argumentative, nor disagreeable, but for me the glider analogy does not really work for me, because you do not have any source of power on the glider, except for the initial tow and unless you have a power glider, your only source of "power" is altitude(provided by updrafts I would assume) and an appropriately vectored wind(I would think adds as well). So the only way to control speed is by increasing or decreasing your pitch as there is no power part of the equation. Now if you increase your pitch would not your glider climb(increased vertical airspeed) as well as the airspeed drops, and as you said if you decrease your pitch not only does airspeed increase, but your glider descends(decreased vertical airspeed). As for drag devices do they not control altitude by decreasing air speed and thus decreasing lift, or am I missing something there as well or are they changing the shape of the wing much like flaps and allowing the same amount of lift at a slower airspeed?

Maybe I am missing something, like I said I am not a glider pilot, but it seems to me that pitch in effect controls both horizontal airspeed, and vertical airspeed in this situation.

Maybe I should opt out and let people think I am ignorant and not let people know I am ignorant.

You are missing a lot!

Sure you can increase pitch and get a very short duration climb and the airspeed does decrease, then your sink rate increases and you lose altitude faster. Then to get your airspeed back, you need to lower the nose and trade the altitude you gained plus more to get that airspeed back.

Remember a glider is always descending, it only climbs (on its own) when the airmass it is flying in is rising faster than the gliders normal sink rate.

On landing the "drag devices" kill lift over the wings to increase the sink rate, not reduce the airspeed.

On final in a standard traing glider, you adjust pitch to control airspeed. If you find yourself landing long, increase the drag, deploy the spoilers but maintain your pitch for speed. Landing short, close the spoilers, decrease the drag to increase the lift effect.

If you are still landing short with spoilers closed, you screwed up your pattern planning. There are tricks to fix that, but you are going to have to accept the risk of landing short.

One trick is to dive for speed, get the wings into ground effect, then bleed off that speed in ground effect. Remember that ground effect starts at about 1/2 the wing span. With a 45-60ft wing span, ground effect is pretty good at 10ft AGL. But it is not an acceptable practice.

 

[BillTIZ]

I had a new 14 yr old student today. The first lesson is "pitch controls airspeed" and keeping the wings level. Don't let the air push you around. The second lesson is turns, coordinated turns with speed control, roll out on headings, (visual references).

Rolling into a turn, the nose tends to drop and speed increases, slight back pressure to control speed, rolling out, that back pressure raises the nose and speed decreases. Learn to roll in and out of turns with speed under control.

With speed control and turn control, we can start traffic patterns and landings, learning the spoiler for glide path control, not pitch for glide path control, pitch for airspeed.

Edit: our primary training glider has an L/d of 23/1. Many training airplanes have a power off L/d of about 7 /1. Many gliders, full spoilers will reduce the L/d down to 7 - 10 /1.

A normal final approach for a glider is about a 7 degree glide slope, powered aircraft and most VASI or PAPI is about 3 degrees.

Gliders teach you to keep it high, keep it close, you only get one shot at the approach and landing. The biggest thing for an airplane to glider transition pilot is getting used to the 7 degree approach. You can always get it down, you can't always extend the glide to keep from landing short.

And if that engine quits, you are a glider, and pitch controls your airspeed.

 

[comanchepilot]

you wil learn this on approach and landing -

If you are IFR rated - fly an approach VFR to a VFR field thats not busy that has an approach. This way you have time to play with it.

If you are not IFR yet - take someone who is - find the above referenced approach - place yourself 2500AGL 10nm out on the LOC [or GPS W] and set up the airplane to fly the approach in go around configuration. In a Skyhawk or Cherokee this might be 25-30 degrees of flaps and an airspeed of 90knots indicated. Once the flaps and gear are set - using trim to set it to maintain 90knots and you have the airplane at maybe 1900-2000 rpm you set the trim to maintain that speed and altitude.

The glideslope will come in above you, as it should most of the time unless ATC has been negligent, just before have GS Intercept reduce the throttle. The airplane will slow first about 5 knots and then begin a descent - hold it a little to prevent a porpoise once you intercept the GS and using power only take to minimums. Use small bank angles and keep the turn coordinated with your feet - no more than 10 degress. You will not be making 30 degree banks in a jet or a twin to hold a LOC.

You should be amazed at much mental bandwidth that frees up after the first couple times. You are doing thing and one thing alone - maintaining the descent rate only with power. The airplane is taking care of the speed.

You now have time to do other things - look for minimums, look for critters on the runway [I aborted a landing last week at sunset with coyote on the runway] you have time to do something else you need to do, like respond to a radio call you always seem to get 1/4 from minimums.

If you are not an instrument pilot - it does not take much time to see that pitch and power lets you take your head out of the airplane in a pattern because you CAN NOT stall the airplane as long as you do not pull.

 

[comanchepilot]

Douglas - you ARE a glider pilot.

You simply have the ability with the engine to find a thermal.

You need to ALWAYS think of every airplane [except the militay fighters and attack / B2 that require a computer] as a glider. All the engine does is extend the glide.

If you have Garmin unit or one of the iPad programs you can see what your descent rate would be to the airport - I used to show that people going to hamburger runs when you are 100nm out you see -187 or some number -if you maintained that descent rate you could use less gas if you descended at that rate at the same speed to the destination. You just need to be able to do that. . . . sometimes terrain and airspace gets in the way.

But you ARE flying a glider at all times.

 

[bobmrg]

This question bugs the hell out of me. Why do power pilots think that there is a single rule that must be applied in all cases? The throttle and the elevator are tools, to be used together or singly, depending on the situation.

Over my flying career I have learned that very few aerodynamics questions can be answered with "always" or "never."

Bob Gardner

 

[comanchepilot]

Just to be clear, Bob - I'm not a nazi about this - but the guy wanted to learn, hence my suggestion - its the easiest way to see the relationship.

As for doing what works - thats great too because sooner or later you will need all those skills -

 

[douglas393]

This question bugs the hell out of me. Why do power pilots think that there is a single rule that must be applied in all cases? The throttle and the elevator are tools, to be used together or singly, depending on the situation.

Over my flying career I have learned that very few aerodynamics questions can be answered with "always" or "never."

Bob Gardner

I was going to bow out of this discussion and forget about all the criticism I have been getting, but I agree with you though in addition I do not see this as only an aerodynamics issue but also a technique issue. I get the whole thing with the analogy of gliders and updrafts, and pistons and engines, but it just not do justice to the differences. It's sort of like sailing and power boating, there are analogous in some ways, and very different in other ways. Much of my sailing experience has helped my with power boating, but there is so much in power boating that you deal with that makes it very different as well.

Anyhow, my problem with this whole pitch for speed, and power for altitude is that it works quite well in some situations, and in others could get you in trouble. For example, in an approach situation it typically works quite well, but if I am cruising IFR at 140 kts I am about to hit some turbulance and need to slow down to Va at 110 kts, I am pulling my throttle back, and then trimming for level flight. If I use pitch for speed I am likely to bust my assigned altitude. To me that is power for speed. Or maybe I am on the glidescope and ATC asks me to speed up, or slow down, why would I use pitch, as that would move me off glidescope, I would use throttle and them trim up or down to stay on glide scope. To me again that is using power for speed, and pitch for altitude. Now maybe I am spinning the relationship, but it seems sensible to my simple thinking. Maybe I should have bowed out.

 

[comanchepilot]

Douglas, even in the situation you describe you are still pitching for speed.

Just because in your case you pull the power back and then trim for speed does not mean that you are not pitching for speed. . .

 

[douglas393]

Douglas, even in the situation you describe you are still pitching for speed.

Just because in your case you pull the power back and then trim for speed does not mean that you are not pitching for speed. . .

It's time for me to bow out.

 

[nosehair]

So...ask yourself, how (and why) the auto-pilot controls altitude with pitch and speed with power?
As I do.After 50 years ..

 

[airheadpenguin]

Anyhow, my problem with this whole pitch for speed, and power for altitude is that it works quite well in some situations, and in others could get you in trouble. For example, in an approach situation it typically works quite well, but if I am cruising IFR at 140 kts I am about to hit some turbulance and need to slow down to Va at 110 kts, I am pulling my throttle back, and then trimming for level flight. If I use pitch for speed I am likely to bust my assigned altitude. To me that is power for speed. Or maybe I am on the glidescope and ATC asks me to speed up, or slow down, why would I use pitch, as that would move me off glidescope, I would use throttle and them trim up or down to stay on glide scope. To me again that is using power for speed, and pitch for altitude. Now maybe I am spinning the relationship, but it seems sensible to my simple thinking. Maybe I should have bowed out.

I think of it as pitching/trimming for 110 and reducing power to maintain level flight.

If you're flying IFR and notice that you're in a shallow climb which instrument do you first check? For me its the tach and 9 times out of 10 its 50-100 rpm high

 

[bqmassey]

So...ask yourself, how (and why) the auto-pilot controls altitude with pitch and speed with power?
As I do.After 50 years ..

Because without autothrottle it has no choice.

 

[jnmeade]

I think this old rubric was often used to help in the approach and landing. One would set a pitch attitude that delivered the right numbers on the ASI. If one was landing short, one would add some power (trimming to keep the same attitude sight picture) so as to maintain speed. That's about the only time I used it, on base and final.
When I first flew the Citation, the power was set and I chose a pitch attitude to climb. The old pilot in the right seat suggested I would climb faster if I put the nose down a little. "Huh?"
Yep, he said, the faster you go the more lift you get and if you lower the nose the airplane will go faster, thus providing more lift. I'll be darned. change from 150 knots at 750 pfm to 200 knots at 1000 fpm. (numbers made up) And see better, too. :0
So, adding thrust will increase lift and gain altitude, as will adding speed. Ever notice when you are in a descent, let's say from 35,000 or even from 10,000 and you get the plane trimmed on a number pretty soon you are not descending at the same VSI setting? As the plane speeds up it develops more lift so you have to continually tweak the trim down to keep the descent rate you want. Might even have to slow the airplane up.

 

[MAKG1]

Something a lot of folks seem to be missing here is that the strategy is different in cruise than it is on approach. Autopilots are designed for cruise, and all approaches excepting coupled precision approaches (with appropriate equipment) should be hand-flown or watched very carefully. One should never be using an autopilot in a VFR pattern, ever.

In cruise, you generally have the throttle as high as you really want it, so if you're going to climb, your only tool is pitch, and climbing at a slower speed. And you are FAR ahead of the power curve, so pulling back will result in you climbing, even after you slow down (as long as you stay ahead of the power curve). On approach, you're close to the peak of the power curve, and if you're behind it and you pull back on the yoke, you'll go up momentarily, but as you slow down, you'll descend faster than you were before. Having an altitude-controlling autopilot engaged in this regime can very easily fly you into a stall through this mechanism.

If you work through an example where you aim the nose at the threshold without messing with the throttle, you'll quickly see that you'll either be very slow or very fast over the numbers. It's unstable dynamics.