Piper Warrior - Major overhaul options for high-time engine

George Mohr

George Mohr

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Gmohr
Hi all,

I have a 89 Warrior/Cadet with an O-320-D3G. It currently has 1800 SMOH with a much newer top end, and is running very sweetly. So this question is more of a hypothetical. For reference, the airplane is in really nice shape. 3,000 hours or so TTAF, great paint, good interior, well equipped with a 430W, S-Tec 20 AP, electric pitch trim. I plan on keeping it.

The history of this engine is rather long. Currently the engine has 10,200 hours TT in the logs (not the original engine in this airframe). It has been through at least 3 major overhauls to date (possibly more, my logs only go back to around 4,100 hours TTE, but lets assume that's right). There's no indication that the crank or case has ever been replaced, but it's hard to say for sure, lets assume not. I know the cam was reground once (at least).

Ok so then, fast forward (hopefully many hours) and it's time for my next major overhaul. Do I...

1) Get a big name engine shop O/H
2) Get a Lycoming O/H
3) or, get a Lycoming Rebuilt with a zero time logbook

That, my friends, is the question. Bring on the opinions!

Thanks in advance,
George
 
Depends on what is wrong with it. In general, factory new is best, zero time is #2, full top and new cam is #3, and just cylinders is #4. If the crank and cam are good you can get the cylinders honed and do new valves. Lots of options.

Anything less than zero time is like starting with a 500 hour engine, not a 0 hour engine. ETC

The more you do, the more you pay, the more you get... Most just pay for what they need. Why do more than that?

With an engine that old, you are likely to need quite a bit.
 
Your future plans for the airplane should play into that decision as well. If it were me, and I planned to hang on to the old girl for the long haul, I'd hang a shiny new hamster wheel on it and fly on.

Others may only do what is necessary, and not a bit more. Can't argue with either approach, really. Just do the required research and have someone you trust do the work.
 
We just stuck on a Ly-con engine. They aren't cheap but they are quality.
 
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I'd check Heart of the West Engines in Wyoming - if the airplane can get there it is a very inexpensive rebuild -= some flight schools swear by them - others at them. YMMV.

Or if you want it done quick and right- send it to Charlie @ zephyr.

Remember - everything in GA is fast, cheap or right, pick any two. I've heard HOTW can give you cheap and right - but not fast . . .
 
If the crank has never been replaced, which is likely, I'd have it thoroughly inspected and possibly replaced. A factory new Lycoming would be my first pick, budget depending, but a respected engine shop will do just fine as well. Considering the age of the engine a detailed breakdown of parts replaced and kept would be top on my list if you choose to go this route.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Depends on what is wrong with it. In general, factory new is best, zero time is #2, full top and new cam is #3, and just cylinders is #4. If the crank and cam are good you can get the cylinders honed and do new valves. Lots of options.

Anything less than zero time is like starting with a 500 hour engine, not a 0 hour engine. ETC

The more you do, the more you pay, the more you get... Most just pay for what they need. Why do more than that?

With an engine that old, you are likely to need quite a bit.
Click to expand...

none of this makes sense. i assume you are talking about when you decide its time to overhaul it, not just because of the time on it, but a reason to get in to it.

1. factory new. good option, fast and easy, but you can suffer infant mortality just as easy on a new engine as on a reman.
2. whats the difference betweeen zero time and a overhaul? only the factory can call it a zero time with new logs. the thing is a reputable engine shop can build an engine that is the same or better than a factory zero time for probably a better price, they just cannot call it a zero time and give it new log books.
3. full top and new cam? makes no sense at all. if the case comes apart at those times you overhaul it.
4. if the crank and cam are good hone and new valves? see above, if the case comes apart do a total overhaul. makes no sense to take it down that far and put the old jugs back on. new jugs are 4k and overhauled somewhere around half that, do it right.

why do more than that? because most of the work and expense is cracking the case and putting it back together, why put an engine on that cannot be called overhauled.

i am not a fan of new factory or zero time factory engines. I dont think that there is good economy in that unless the case does not spec out and both cam and crank are bad. then a factory engine may be a good way to go. otherwise, i would send it to a good builder that will overhaul it. the only question is do you want to go to new limits or service limits. only you can decide with good input from your engine builder.

If you are going to keep it, when the time comes get a good rebuild from a good shop. if you are going to sell it while the new motor has low time on it, some people think that a factory engine is worth more, im not one of them, but the question is, do the prospective buyers think so. if you are going to put say a 1000 hrs on it before selling it, i dont think a factory or a good rebuild will make any difference on the resale at that point.

bob
 
If it were me, and I planned on keeping it for a while I'd probably go for a Lycoming factory overhaul. Last I heard, nearly everything in them is new so it is basically a truly brand new engine for a premium overhaul price. The engine you have has been around a while and unless you can determine whether or not the parts inside will be reusable the factory overhaul option might just be the cheapest option and one that gets you the most for your money.
 
A great reason to go to Sun & Fun is to ask Penn Yan about your 'dilemma'. That's what I did (at Oshkosh) and decided to order a Penn Yan engine for my Cheetah. I received it in December, owner-assist-installed it in January, and have enjoyed it ever since. The engine I received had been in the Cessna training fleet so it had like 7500 hours on it already - so similar situation. But it's doing fine right now so no complaints. Anyway, great excuse to go to Florida in early April....
 
I've never really understood the appeal of a "zero time" engine. You have no way of knowing whether the crankcase of your expensive zero time engine has more hours on it than the engine you have right now.
 
If your current engine needs a crank, a field overhaul will be the same price or more than a Lycoming factory rebuilt engine. Lycoming will give full core credit for an engine that is 'running when removed'. If the crank or case are bad when they disassemble the engine, it is on them.

Do you feel lucky ?
 
GRG55 said:
I've never really understood the appeal of a "zero time" engine. You have no way of knowing whether the crankcase of your expensive zero time engine has more hours on it than the engine you have right now.
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Same. Based on what I can tell, the "zero-time"
has far more to do with not knowing which parts have how much time, and thus the only possible way to log the "new" engine was zero-time. Somehow, that morphed into something desireable that commands a premium.
I personally would rather have known-history/time in service parts than a collection of unknown parts just to get a "zero-time" logbook.

That said, the zero-time situation might be desireable due to the misconceptions of prospective buyers if selling is on the horizon.
 
Omalley1537 said:
Same. Based on what I can tell, the "zero-time"
has far more to do with not knowing which parts have how much time, and thus the only possible way to log the "new" engine was zero-time. Somehow, that morphed into something desireable that commands a premium.
I personally would rather have known-history/time in service parts than a collection of unknown parts just to get a "zero-time" logbook.

That said, the zero-time situation might be desireable due to the misconceptions of prospective buyers if selling is on the horizon.
Click to expand...

Agree. I think it's great marketing. And it might make good sense for commercial operators where there are perhaps downtime and liability concerns.

To my knowledge there isn't a single part on an aircraft engine that cannot be replaced by new or properly reconditioned. I would rather have my known provenance engines properly overhauled at a reputable shop.

I am waiting to see if Ted weighs in here with a view.
 
How about buying a used engine in great condition? That could be a possible option.
 
We went for the 160hp replacement motor on our club's Warrior 151. That extra 10hp is noticeable. I believe it was a RAM engine, but don't quote me.
 
Buy a runout engine. Tear it apart with a video camera running to show you where every piece you took off goes. Lots of places sell engine parts inexpensively (comparatively); Fresno Airparts is a good place to start.

Send the reusable parts out for inspection, grinding, or whatever. Buy your parts depending on what the reusable shop tells you.

Start putting it back together under the semi-watchful eye of your A&P. Hang it on your airframe, go test fly it and diddle with it until you are happy with how it is running.

You've done two things. You know intimately the innards of that engine. You've got an engine for half the price of anywhere else.

Sell your old engine to recoup the cost of the used engine you bought OR pickle your old engine for the NEXT overhaul.

Jim
 
Consider reading some of Mike Busch's articles on this very subject. Unlike many on the internet he has the experience and test data to back up his opinions. He may also save you a lot of money.
 
swap it for an O-360, and have an WarArcher.... better performance.... more load capability, it's all good.
 
I have a small problem with that... it's actually a Cadet, and many of the STC's don't support the Cadet S/N's. I'd have to check this one tho. 20 more HP sounds niiicceee.. :)
 
Glenn D said:
swap it for an O-360, and have an WarArcher.... better performance.... more load capability, it's all good.
Click to expand...

Would you actually get the extra gross out of that? My understanding is that getting the extra gross of an Archer needs airframe changes.
 
arnoha said:
Would you actually get the extra gross out of that? My understanding is that getting the extra gross of an Archer needs airframe changes.
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There is a gross weight increase available for the Warrior ll with the 160 hp engine. The 180 conversion STC's for the Warrior do not have a gross weight increase. That being said I had a 161 and converted it to 180 hp after I did the paper GW increase STC. The 180 conversion is very expensive. Better to trade up to a factory 180 hp airplane.
 
With that amount of hours on the engine, you may consider the factory overhaul route if you plan to sell the plane in the future. Starting over with 0 hours in the engine log book would help with resale. Some shops will also refuse to overhaul your engine once the case has been reworked more than 4 or 5 times, so this may be the best way to reset the clock.

That being said, I believe that there are lots of engine shops out there that do at least as good of a job overhauling the engine as the factory for less money.
 
arnoha said:
Would you actually get the extra gross out of that? My understanding is that getting the extra gross of an Archer needs airframe changes.
Click to expand...
The paperwork states " All parts required to converted to a 180", and the new weigh and balance uses 2400 gr weight, so that is what I plan for ... 1296 empty weight so there is enough to make this bird really useful. The one thing that I'm not sure on is what nose strut is in the plane, and if the increase to the FWD part of the W&B envelop can be used so I do not plan for the FWD CG being in the more useful range. It is a little nose heavy as the battery was not moved behind the rear bulkhead... it is still under the back seats. I plan on moving it back maybe next year to help move the starting CG back... with full fuel and solo it needs about 50 - 75 lbs in the baggage area to make it handle better.

Saturday I was flying, just having fun before the rains came back... 2500 rpm at 3k ft and seeing 140 to 144 mph.... it is a fun little plane
 
Glenn D said:
The paperwork states " All parts required to converted to a 180", and the new weigh and balance uses 2400 gr weight, so that is what I plan for ... 1296 empty weight so there is enough to make this bird really useful. The one thing that I'm not sure on is what nose strut is in the plane, and if the increase to the FWD part of the W&B envelop can be used so I do not plan for the FWD CG being in the more useful range. It is a little nose heavy as the battery was not moved behind the rear bulkhead... it is still under the back seats. I plan on moving it back maybe next year to help move the starting CG back... with full fuel and solo it needs about 50 - 75 lbs in the baggage area to make it handle better.

Saturday I was flying, just having fun before the rains came back... 2500 rpm at 3k ft and seeing 140 to 144 mph.... it is a fun little plane
Click to expand...

Ah, makes sense...that's the 160 HP increase, which matches with what @charlie said. The Archer's gross is 2550 lbs.
 
arnoha said:
Ah, makes sense...that's the 160 HP increase, which matches with what @charlie said. The Archer's gross is 2550 lbs.
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Yes the Archer II and above has the 2550 gross, but the older 180's were 2400 to 2450. The POH that is with my plane is for a Cherokee 180 "E", with the listed gross weight being 2400. back in 1971 when the change was made, there were not a lot of Archers around!.,.. Would sure like to have the 2550 total weight!... but then it would be a flying slug at that weight.

A good friend has a mid 1980's Archer II, new paint, new engine, and it flying about the same as mine, it just has more rear seat leg room, along with a few more features, but I like my plane more.
 
Glenn D said:
Yes the Archer II and above has the 2550 gross, but the older 180's were 2400 to 2450. The POH that is with my plane is for a Cherokee 180 "E", with the listed gross weight being 2400. back in 1971 when the change was made, there were not a lot of Archers around!.,.. Would sure like to have the 2550 total weight!... but then it would be a flying slug at that weight.

A good friend has a mid 1980's Archer II, new paint, new engine, and it flying about the same as mine, it just has more rear seat leg room, along with a few more features, but I like my plane more.
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Interesting. Still learning.

I've flown plenty of Archers at full 2550 gross. It actually barely notices (at sea level, anyway). The Warriors I've flown have definitely noticed when at full gross, but the extra displacement of the 360 really makes a surprising difference.
 
On a cool day, sea level, at full gross (2325 lbs), my Cadet flies fine. On a hot day, one must be attentive to T/O performance...
 
weirdjim said:
Buy a runout engine. Tear it apart with a video camera running to show you where every piece you took off goes. Lots of places sell engine parts inexpensively (comparatively); Fresno Airparts is a good place to start.

Send the reusable parts out for inspection, grinding, or whatever. Buy your parts depending on what the reusable shop tells you.

Start putting it back together under the semi-watchful eye of your A&P. Hang it on your airframe, go test fly it and diddle with it until you are happy with how it is running.

You've done two things. You know intimately the innards of that engine. You've got an engine for half the price of anywhere else.

Sell your old engine to recoup the cost of the used engine you bought OR pickle your old engine for the NEXT overhaul.

Jim
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Best. Advice. Ever!

One of my flying buddies had Cherokee 180. Looking through the engine logs, that engine approximately 3,600 hrs before the first overhaul. He bought the plane when it had 2100hrs on the second run (for $17k). And then he flew it for another 500 hrs on that engine before a hailstorm caused the insurance company to pay him $20k for the damage. He sold the hull to a new friend, who had a shiny new engine installed on it. 4hrs later, a loose fuel line caused an engine fire that totaled the plane. But now he has a Pathfinder...

See, some stories do have happy endings! Read the stats, choose wisely! Odds are that your new overhaul is more likely to fail in the first 400hrs after reassembly, than it was before you pulled it apart. (Unless it was making metal when you removed it from service).
 
weilke said:
If your current engine needs a crank, a field overhaul will be the same price or more than a Lycoming factory rebuilt engine. Lycoming will give full core credit for an engine that is 'running when removed'. ?
Click to expand...

IIRC, I believe that's true only if engine is less than 20 years old.
 
teejayevans said:
IIRC, I believe that's true only if engine is less than 20 years old.
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Here is the service letter:

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Lycoming Engines Exchange Engine Core Policy.pdf

I dont see a 20 year restriction.

It has to be :
- Active
- Assembled
- Complete
- Operable
- Data plate present
- Documented engine time
- Unmodified with a original crank and case

If the engine is older than 36 years, it can only be used as a core for a rebuilt or new engine, not a 'factory overhaul'. A couple more conditions of that nature dealing with case combinations they don't support anymore. There is a price difference between 'overhaul' and 'rebuilt' on most of their engines, iirc 2k for the six cylinder engines.

Conti offers a service where they send a factory rep out to your plane. You do a run-up for him to prove that it runs and you receive a guarantee that you get the full core charge regardless of what they find inside.
 
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weilke said:
Here is the service letter:

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Lycoming Engines Exchange Engine Core Policy.pdf

I dont see a 20 year restriction.

It has to be :
- Active
- Assembled
- Complete
- Operable
- Data plate present
- Logbook with engine times

If the engine is older than 36 years, it can only be used as a core for a rebuilt or new engine, not a 'factory overhaul'. A couple more conditions of that nature dealing with case combinations they don't support anymore. There is a price difference between 'overhaul' and 'rebuilt' on most of their engines, iirc 2k for the six cylinder engines.

Conti offers a service where they send a factory rep out to your plane. You do a run-up for him to prove that it runs and you receive a guarantee that you get the full core charge regardless of what they find inside.
Click to expand...

From the web site:
71e44323cdfdcbc114f73e697cd2fc43.jpg
 
teejayevans said:
From the web site:
71e44323cdfdcbc114f73e697cd2fc43.jpg
Click to expand...

Can you give me a link to the actual page rather than a screen-grab ?

Edit:

Found it.

The 20 years applies to the 'loyalty program'. If you overhaul within 20 years of purchasing a new engine (e.g. in a new aircraft), you get a rebuilt engine at the price of the 'factory overhaul'.

https://www.lycoming.com/services/loyalty-program

What I was talking about is the core credit and for that the Service Letter 250A applies. Talk to your distributor beforehand and get in writing that your engine is not excluded from full core credit.
 
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weirdjim said:
Buy a runout engine. Tear it apart with a video camera running to show you where every piece you took off goes. Lots of places sell engine parts inexpensively (comparatively); Fresno Airparts is a good place to start.

Send the reusable parts out for inspection, grinding, or whatever. Buy your parts depending on what the reusable shop tells you.

Start putting it back together under the semi-watchful eye of your A&P. Hang it on your airframe, go test fly it and diddle with it until you are happy with how it is running.

You've done two things. You know intimately the innards of that engine. You've got an engine for half the price of anywhere else.

Sell your old engine to recoup the cost of the used engine you bought OR pickle your old engine for the NEXT overhaul.

Jim
Click to expand...


I have a friend that did this with a Piper Comanche. Entire airframe came down to every last nut and bolt. I was sure he'd never get it back together. But it's been flying again for about 6 yrs now. It did cost him his marriage as much of the work was done in his living room. Parts spread everywhere as pictures were taken with lists of what was what and where it came from.
 
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