Piper Warrior - Fuel Measurement

newbiepilot

newbiepilot

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newbiepilot
Hello All,

I working on transitioning from C-172 to Piper PA28.

One thing I find odd is while pre-flighting Cessna, I visually check the fuel level and use the dip stick to get the accurate/exact fuel level. But in piper, my CFI said you can visually check and do rough estimate. He did mention that if the fuel is at the neck it has 15 Gallons.

My question is - can't we use the dip stick in piper to confirm the exact amount of fuel. Is not so important to get the exact fuel level for W&B?

May be I missing something. Please advise.

Thanks.
 
newbiepilot said:
Hello All,

I working on transitioning from C-172 to Piper PA28.

One thing I find odd is while pre-flighting Cessna, I visually check the fuel level and use the dip stick to get the accurate/exact fuel level. But in piper, my CFI said you can visually check and do rough estimate. He did mention that if the fuel is at the neck it has 15 Gallons.

My question is - can't we use the dip stick in piper to confirm the exact amount of fuel. Is not so important to get the exact fuel level for W&B?

May be I missing something. Please advise.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
You could, but it usually isn't that big of a deal. I've never felt the need to measure fuel that exactly in a PA28.

Every PA28 I've flown had tabs in the fuel tanks that were set at 17 gallons.
 
On a warrior, Full tank is 25 gal, each side. Fuel to tabs is 18 gal each side.
 
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A dipstick can be used. I have one for my PA-28. I did have to calibrate the stick but that is no big deal.

A handy feature of the PA-28's is the "tab" in the fuel tank which allows one at accurately assess whether or not there is fuel to a particular level. On mine, the tab indicates 25 gallons in the tank.

I'm sure that the tank on a Warrior holds more than 15 gallons. It probably holds 25 when topped off. Check the POH.

As for W&B and fuel, check full and empty tanks with your typical loads. Learn when you need to be worried.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Every PA28 I've flown had tabs in the fuel tanks that were set at 17 gallons.
Click to expand...

That's for the "little" PA-28s :D and the older "big" PA-28s. The bigger taper wings have 36 gallong tanks and tabs yields 25.
 
murphey said:
Full tank is 25 gal, each side. Fuel to tabs is 18 gal each side.
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24 and 17 useable. When the fuel level is down to the point where it not quite lapping at the bottom of the outboard bulkhead, about 8 gallons remain. This is for fixed-gear, taper wing PA28s. Not sure if the hershey-bar wings use the same fuel tank or not. Both the tank and the wing dihedral would have to be the same for the 8 gallon number to be valid.

I have a dipstick pre-calibrated for those tanks, bought IIRC at Aircraft Spruce. It wasn't very expensive and is handy for those situations where fuel is below tabs and lapping somewhere up on the outboard bulkhead.
 
airdale said:
24 and 17 useable. When the fuel level is down to the point where it not quite lapping at the bottom of the outboard bulkhead, about 8 gallons remain. This is for fixed-gear, taper wing PA28s. Not sure if the hershey-bar wings use the same fuel tank or not. Both the tank and the wing dihedral would have to be the same for the 8 gallon number to be valid.

I have a dipstick pre-calibrated for those tanks, bought IIRC at Aircraft Spruce. It wasn't very expensive and is handy for those situations where fuel is below tabs and lapping somewhere up on the outboard bulkhead.
Click to expand...

Do you have link for that? Thanks
 
Clark1961 said:
That's for the "little" PA-28s :D and the older "big" PA-28s. The bigger taper wings have 36 gallong tanks and tabs yields 25.
Click to expand...

The taper-wing Archer is still 17/24 gallons (tabs/full). The Arrow did get bigger tanks with the -1 taper wing, though.
 
bradg33 said:
The taper-wing Archer is still 17/24 gallons (tabs/full). The Arrow did get bigger tanks with the -1 taper wing, though.
Click to expand...

Yep, the Archer is a "little" PA-28 :D
 
newbiepilot said:
Thanks a lot.

I found this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/321117673023?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
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That is a "universal" dipstick.

That dipstick has a numbered scale. It will be up to you to determine how many gallons each of those numbers corresponds to, and write that down on a chart for reference. It's handy if you have several different aircraft - you can use the same dipstick and then reference the card that goes with the airplane.

The one from Aircraft Spruce is already calibrated so the numbers on the stick are actually gallons usable. It will only be calibrated for the aircraft printed on it.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/fuelindicatorpa28.php

edit: Note that I said "usable" fuel. On the Fuelhawk sticks that I have, they DO say "useable". This particular brand from Aircraft Spruce? I dunno, you'll have to verify.
 
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I fly an Archer which is pretty much the same airplane +20hp.

I have a dipstick similar to the ones they are linking to. I very rarely use it. For practical purposes, I just look at the tabs/filler neck. If the fuel is at or above the tabs I have at least 17 gallons which with the most pessimistic fuel burn rate for an Archer gives me ~1hr 40min... x2 for both tanks and I'm just under 3.5hours. More than enough fuel for a typical 1-2hr training flight. I'm assuming your tanks are the same size and the warrior burns a little less gas so you probably are doing better than that(check your own POH though).

If fuel is below tabs, I just fill the tanks. If I'm leaving home on a cross country, I fill the tanks. Tabs and filler neck are almost impossible to misread and if you just keep yourself erring on the side of having too much fuel you'll be fine.
 
Don't over rate the accuracy of stick measurements. Fuel ports are outboard and forward. Tank level is affected by levelness of the wings (level ground, equal main strut extension) and extension of the front strut. The down hill tank will show more and the uphill tank less so tends to cancel out. Front strut too far extended causes low reading so conservative.
 
Graueradler said:
Don't over rate the accuracy of stick measurements. ...
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Compared to draining the tank and exactly measuring its contents, they are not all that accurate. Compared to eyeballing the tank and guessing the fuel level below tabs and above the tank bottom, they are phenomenally good. Don't compare their accuracy to perfection; compare to the alternative.
 
airdale said:
Compared to draining the tank and exactly measuring its contents, they are not all that accurate. Compared to eyeballing the tank and guessing the fuel level below tabs and above the tank bottom, they are phenomenally good. Don't compare their accuracy to perfection; compare to the alternative.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Didn't mean to say it was bad. Just that one should be aware that it isn't perfect.
 
Graueradler said:
Agreed. Didn't mean to say it was bad. Just that one should be aware that it isn't perfect.
Click to expand...

In a plane without a totalizer or even a ff gauge who needs 'perfect'?

Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with a brush and chop it with an axe.
 
So, if on a PA28 151/161/181, with the new tappert wing, I see the bottom of the tank
being just-free-of-fuel directly under the filler-neck, I can assume that the
inboard/bottom part of the tank still contains at least 5 USG of usable fuel ? would that
be a fair statement ??
 
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Unless you're always going to fuel to the tabs or above, I'd make your own fuel stick.
 
Kim Frederiksen said:
So, if on a PA28 151/161/181, with the new tappert wing, I see the bottom of the tank
being just-free-of-fuel directly under the filler-neck, I can assume that the
inboard/bottom part of the tank still contains at least 5 USG of usable fuel ? would that
be a fair statement ??
Click to expand...

I think the only fair conclusion that I would draw in that situation is that I need to call the fuel truck, I don't try to guess the difference between 3 or 4 or 5 gallons. And I would wonder at the pilot before me who left it in that condition.

If you are curious, fill it to the tabs and then subtract the amount added from 17.
 
Kim Frederiksen said:
So, if on a PA28 151/161/181, with the new tappert wing, I see the bottom of the tank
being just-free-of-fuel directly under the filler-neck, I can assume that the
inboard/bottom part of the tank still contains at least 5 USG of usable fuel ? would that
be a fair statement ??
Click to expand...
Fair statement, stupid assumption.
 
In the OP's scenario a dipstick will come up empty.
 
JimNtexas said:
Get the PA-28-151 model of this:

http://www.fuelstik.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7&Itemid=107

But really, if the fuel is under the tabs in both tanks, JUST BUY SOME FUEL!!!!
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Most of my time is in PA-28's with hershey bar wings. I don't have a dipstick. The fuel level looks lower than it really is below the tabs, but even knowing that I still follow this rule. If it's below the tabs on both sides, I fill. I assume it's just unusable fuel down there lapping at the walls even though it's typically 8-12 gallons usable (based on it taking as little as 6 gallons from the pump to get back up to the tabs). This assumption has so far led to precisely zero fuel starvation incidents. The opposite assumption does not have that failsafe.
 
I was taught that it it's below the tabs, fill it up. The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.
 
lancie00 said:
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.
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With a 150 HP Hershey bar wing Cherokee, I disagree. With its miserable take off and climb performance in the summer time, any more fuel than you need is giving up safety margin unnecessarily. I considered anything over an hour reserve to be more than needed.
 
I bought a pa-28-180 so I wouldn't have to worry about fuel so much. I won't take off if a tank is below the tab. Any x-country (even short ones) start with full tanks. If just doing 1-1.5 hr practice flights (I'm still a student) I will sometimes fly 3 times before filling back up. When alone, even lately with the very hot weather and with full tanks, I've always been able to climb at more than 1000 fpm. I love my little bird.
 
Graueradler said:
With a 150 HP Hershey bar wing Cherokee, I disagree. With its miserable take off and climb performance in the summer time, any more fuel than you need is giving up safety margin unnecessarily. I considered anything over an hour reserve to be more than needed.
Click to expand...

Sounds to me like you need to go on a diet then. There is a certain King Air pilot who had that mentality. He's dead and so is his passenger when they didn't make Springdale from Camden.
 
Graueradler said:
With a 150 HP Hershey bar wing Cherokee, I disagree. With its miserable take off and climb performance in the summer time, any more fuel than you need is giving up safety margin unnecessarily. I considered anything over an hour reserve to be more than needed.
Click to expand...
It's all relative...I use my Cherokee 140 with 3 adults and I love the way it climbs...because I compare it to my last plane, a Cessna 150 that with two adults and full fuel would only get 300 fpm at sea level on a cold day. It truly would be a waste if I now had a 180.
And back to the original post...I have the Aircraft Spruce fuel stick, and it works great. I always depart with either exactly 36 or 50 gallons, because I also have a Fuel Scan 450 (which also works great, btw). I use the fuel stick to determine how much fuel to add to reach 36.
 
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Unit74 said:
Sounds to me like you need to go on a diet then. There is a certain King Air pilot who had that mentality. He's dead and so is his passenger when they didn't make Springdale from Camden.
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I didn't say "an hour of fuel". I said "an hour reserve". I don't understand your post and probably shouldn't have responded. I weigh about 195 when ready to climb into the pilot's seat but it is usual to expect to be able to use a plane loaded to gross take off weight. Explain what is wrong with flying within the design margins of the plane with fuel for the trip plus an hours reserve.

I haven't looked up the KA event but if I remember correctly, he didn't have enough fuel for the planned flight when he took off.
 
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Had a dipstick in my Cherokee, then lost it. Didn't miss it much, with the tabs and a good fuel log it wasn't hard to keep track of the gas.
 
steingar said:
Had a dipstick in my Cherokee, then lost it. Didn't miss it much, with the tabs and a good fuel log it wasn't hard to keep track of the gas.
Click to expand...

I used a dual countdown timer for long cross country fuel management. With the tanks full, each had 2 hrs and 45 minutes of fuel (assuming 9 gph for an 0320 Lyc). Provided a continual indication of how much time was left in each tank.
 
Graueradler said:
I didn't say "an hour of fuel". I said "an hour reserve". I don't understand your post and probably shouldn't have responded. I weigh about 195 when ready to climb into the pilot's seat but it is usual to expect to be able to use a plane loaded to gross take off weight. Explain what is wrong with flying within the design margins of the plane with fuel for the trip plus an hours reserve.

I haven't looked up the KA event but if I remember correctly, he didn't have enough fuel for the planned flight when he took off.
Click to expand...
No, he sure didn't. He was a, "gimme a splash of gas. I'm not tankering fuel" kinda guy. He assumed he had enough lbs on board, tried to make Springdale on fumes and lost the wager.
 
I'm just now going over to a Piper Cherokee Warrior II built in 1982.
Was just wondering what is meant here with a little or big warrior?

It's full name is Piper PA-28-161 Cherokee Warrior II

I find model numbers a little strange. I was flying an Aquila where the weight and balance sheet the club uses calls it something different, another place it was called an A211 and yet another A210, and still another an AT something-or-other.

Seems like an important distinction to me but...
 
LongRoadBob said:
I'm just now going over to a Piper Cherokee Warrior II built in 1982.
Was just wondering what is meant here with a little or big warrior?
Click to expand...

Warrior II also PA-28-161 is the big Warrior. They lengthened the fuselage (resulting in more legroom for the back seat) and changed from the "Hershey Bar" wing (essentially a big rectangle) to the tapered wing. You can recognize it easily on the ramp: Warrior II or model suffix -161 has three windows in the side of the fuselage, whereas Warrior model suffix 160 has two. -Skip
 
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