PIPER Spar AD

Although mine was checked when I replaced the fuel senders, I guess I'll keep that access panel kit on the shelf for a while. Thanks for the update.
 
mine was checked as well, but no eddy current inspection was done :(. i am still on the hook
 
Thing is, you don't know if you are on the hook for the wing-pulling eddy current action; the AD hasn't been published.

What I mean by that is that if it is published as currently delineated, if (1) you don't have 5000 factor service hours (most of them accrued by a multiplying factor to any 100-hour inspections listed in the logbook...annuals are not 100-hour inspections, if not listed as such) and (2) you didn't incur a spar replacement in your aircraft history with a used spar (technically a spar replacement you cannot trace/prove the spar component as previously un-used when installed...most wing unit swaps unfortunately would have been from used sources so they're auto-eligible for the eddy current), then your airplane is AD C/W without further action until such a time any of the above occur.
 
and (2) you didn't incur a spar replacement in your aircraft history with a used spar (technically a spar replacement you cannot trace/prove the spar component as previously un-used when installed...most wing unit swaps unfortunately would have been from used sources so they're auto-eligible for the eddy current), then your airplane is AD C/W without further action until such a time any of the above occur.
The interesting thing is, they have two conflicting statements in the proposed docket. At first it said aircraft that had past replacements wouldn’t need to have the inspection, because cracks would have likely been found while the repair was being done. On the other hand a bit further down, it says that any aircraft that had a spar or wing replacement would need the eddy current. Did I read that right?
 
Hundred hour inspections are a poor surrogate for flight training hours. It is not uncommon to see annual inspections beginning entered as a 100 hour and as an annual with two different stamps. It is also not uncommon for a training aircraft to have multiple annual inspections instead of 100 hour inspections as the inspector is an IA and just signs it that way. Then we get into the PA-32's which are rarely used as trainer, but have 100 hour inspections as they have been used in charter or cargo operations. Other than the rough use these aircraft can get in Alaska, I am not aware of wings falling off PA-32's used for commercial ops.
 
Hundred hour inspections are a poor surrogate for flight training hours. It is not uncommon to see annual inspections beginning entered as a 100 hour and as an annual with two different stamps. It is also not uncommon for a training aircraft to have multiple annual inspections instead of 100 hour inspections as the inspector is an IA and just signs it that way. Then we get into the PA-32's which are rarely used as trainer, but have 100 hour inspections as they have been used in charter or cargo operations. Other than the rough use these aircraft can get in Alaska, I am not aware of wings falling off PA-32's used for commercial ops.

For purposes of this review, count any inspection conducted to comply with the 100-hour requirement of 14 CFR 91.409(b) pertaining to carrying persons for hire, such as in-flight training environments, even if the inspection was entered in the maintenance records as an “annual” inspection or as an “annual/100-hour” inspection. If the purpose of an inspection was to comply with § 91.409(b), then it must be counted. To determine the purpose of an inspection, note the repeating intervals between inspections, i.e., less than 10 months between, and typically 90-110 flight hours.
 
The interesting thing is, they have two conflicting statements in the proposed docket. At first it said aircraft that had past replacements wouldn’t need to have the inspection, because cracks would have likely been found while the repair was being done. On the other hand a bit further down, it says that any aircraft that had a spar or wing replacement would need the eddy current. Did I read that right?

I don't see the part that I underlined. The only relief from the AD for a new spar replacement that I see is "If a main wing spar has been replaced with a new (zero hours TIS) main wing spar, count the number of 100-hour inspections from the time of installation of the new main wing spar."
 
I don't see the part that I underlined. The only relief from the AD for a new spar replacement that I see is "If a main wing spar has been replaced with a new (zero hours TIS) main wing spar, count the number of 100-hour inspections from the time of installation of the new main wing spar."
I’ll have to go back and find it in the docket.
 
For purposes of this review, count any inspection conducted to comply with the 100-hour requirement of 14 CFR 91.409(b) pertaining to carrying persons for hire, such as in-flight training environments, even if the inspection was entered in the maintenance records as an “annual” inspection or as an “annual/100-hour” inspection. If the purpose of an inspection was to comply with § 91.409(b), then it must be counted. To determine the purpose of an inspection, note the repeating intervals between inspections, i.e., less than 10 months between, and typically 90-110 flight hours.

Sometimes this is obvious, and sometimes it is not. It can be rather hard to divine what was going on when looking at 40 year old logbook entries. It seems to me that counting all commercial flying as the same as Riddle's doing thousands of hours of crash and dashes is ridiculous and hugely burdensome. Using a heavier, complex aircraft for flight training the way the big schools do is rare. An Arrow in a normal FBO fleet is going to be doing a lot more cross-country and rental flying which is not going to be nearly as hard on the aircraft as what the big schools do.
 
What are we talking about for costs..? and could we ever expect insurance or Piper to cover these costs, or at least partially subsidize it? I doubt Piper is swimming in cash.. but would they ever offer something as a gesture of good faith?

I understand the cost argument to this and the "FAA=bad" side, but, some Pipers do have known and documented potential wing departure issues going back 30+ years. I love the PA28, if I were an owner I'd be happy to know that my wing is still safe. Hitting bumps and mountain waves you want to know that wing is still performing as designed

I found the aircraft selection interesting too.. the PA-28-180/160/161 are exempt, but NOT the PA-28-181. What it is about this taper wing that makes it different? Slightly more horsepower? and why the 181 then and not the 180

Odd.
 
some changes to the proposed AD
https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/business-aviation-news/faa-proposes-changes-to-cherokee-spar-ad/

"The five aircraft removed from the list are the PA-28-140, PA-28-150, PA-28-160, PA-28-161 and PA-28-180"

I found the aircraft selection interesting too.. the PA-28-180/160/161 are exempt, but NOT the PA-28-181. What it is about this taper wing that makes it different? Slightly more horsepower? and why the 181 then and not the 180

Odd.

AFAIK the -161 and -181 are identical aft of the firewall.

Also curious is that the -151 (the 1974-76 year model Warriors) is not mentioned.
 
AFAIK the -161 and -181 are identical aft of the firewall.
That's what I thought too.. so I assume it might be related to weights and speeds and overall loads. I think the taper wings are a larger wingspan

Individual planes will defer, but in general all these planes go similar speeds. Mind you, these "75% power" book speeds are suspiciously high. The -181 and -161 I've flown are closer to 118-125. But I digress (they've also been beater rentals, so.. you know)

The only real material difference I can find is the -181 carries 100 more lbs at max gross than the 180 and 225 more lbs than the 161. The higher weight (than both) and longer wing (than -180) may be just enough to accelerate the fatigue?

PA-28-161
2325 127

PA-28-181
2550 125

PA-28-180
2450 129
 
What is the cost of the inspection if the magic number of 5,000 hits, that is if the inspection pass. After the first inspection does it reset the 100hr number back to zero?
 
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some changes to the proposed AD
FWIW: What I find interesting is there are 10,000 affected aircraft and only 168 comments submitted to the NPRM. If you read the SNPRM comment discussion section they made a number of "positive" changes based only on those 168 initial comments. I wonder how many more inspection criteria the feds would change if they received 5000 comments to the SNPRM? For those who have never participated in a NPRM process, this is the route to make a difference especially if you own an affected PA-28 or PA-32.
 
Outside of the cost, what's driving the push against this?
 
Outside of the cost, what's driving the push against this?
The potential to damage planes conducting the inspection is high on my list of why not. The NTSB also raised the issue. If it was such a screaming danger, you would think the AD would have been issued a long time ago. It's been over two years since the ERAU crash. Here's some verbiage from the NTSB on the crashed trainer The NTSB reported that the accident aircraft had accumulated 7,690.6 hours and 33,276 landing cycles prior to the crash, averaging 4.33 landings per hour of flight time. The board also found reports of reported flap extension overspeed, gear extension overspeed and hard landing events in the aircraft’s logs, but noted that airframe inspections had been performed after each event with no defects noted.

That plane had basically been used to teach landings (4.3 landings/flight hour). It had the crap beat out of it. I do think the inspections make sense for planes where that might be in their history. For non-school planes, no way do I want to pull 4 close tolerance bolts to do a likely unneeded inspection. My plane is now out of scope based on the most recent changes, but it would have been as a few years of early logs are missing.
 
AFAIK the -161 and -181 are identical aft of the firewall.

Also curious is that the -151 (the 1974-76 year model Warriors) is not mentioned.
no, the 161 and 151 have the same spar, the 181 has a different part number for the spar.
 
If the proposed verbiage stays, I am on the hook no matter what. Both my wings were replaced some 20 years ago, one from factory, one from a salvage yard with no known TIS. Last annual I had my IA look very closely at the spar when the fuel tanks were out, I don’t think all the places are visible without taking the wings off, so there is that. One way or another I might just get it done, waiting for them to make up their darn mind
 
Both my wings were replaced some 20 years ago, one from factory, one from a salvage yard
Any idea why? The Archer I fly had a wing replacement about twenty years ago as well, after someone ran it off the runway and hit a tree.
 
Any idea why? The Archer I fly had a wing replacement about twenty years ago as well, after someone ran it off the runway and hit a tree.

Lol. Exactly same as mine. First the owner ran off the runway and hit a tree and took the left wing off, a couple of years later he did the same thing and this time took the right wing off.... then donated the plane to AOPA ASI. They ran her all over the country for 15 some years and thousands of hours. I highly doubt suddenly the wings are going to depart.... but if you can’t find the TIS on that replaced wing or if the wing is not from tractors with zero hours, you are on the hook too. Unless they change that verbiage
 
I am on the hook no matter what
FYI: one item noticeable in the updated discussion is the mention, several times, that they will address AMOCs on a case by case basis for those owners who have possible "unique" circumstances. Perhaps get with your APIA and go over possible AMOC submissions for your specific aircraft. You never know.;)
 
If the proposed verbiage stays, I am on the hook no matter what. Both my wings were replaced some 20 years ago, one from factory, one from a salvage yard with no known TIS. Last annual I had my IA look very closely at the spar when the fuel tanks were out, I don’t think all the places are visible without taking the wings off, so there is that. One way or another I might just get it done, waiting for them to make up their darn mind
Good luck man
 
Outside of the cost, what's driving the push against this?

post #17 for me.

More of the same owner-burden, AD boondoggle that will never end. Additionally, I'm antagonized by the dynamic of political expedience where ERAU gets to socialize their greed-borne losses onto my plate. But that's a tangent.

Doubtful the insurance carriers will start covering this; not that such is an economic inflection point for me either way. I'm more put off by a potential legal mandate to destructive inspect, which I find not in the interest of my family's life. In the end my monkey my circus. I'll pivot as required. It's only a hobby after all.

On a personal note, one of my wings was pulled in 2007 but put back on, otherwise few to no 100 hour inspections. So I avoid this AD bullet when it does get published... for now anyways. There's always tomorrow with these blasted fac-builts. Good luck to all.
 
It does seem that this is another reason why they EA world may be enticing to some.. the greater maintenance and build autonomy
 
Same here. More worried about this Mx induced failure than the wing falling off after 20 years and thousands of hours of perfectly safe flight
 
https://generalaviationnews.com/2019/01/03/proposed-ad-could-affect-almost-20000-piper-aircraft/

"To review maintenance records and calculate factored service hours, the FAA estimates two work hours at $85 an hour for $170 per airplane. Total costs for the U.S. fleet: $3.3 million.

The estimated costs to do the eddy current inspection, if needed, is $147.50 per wing spar, according to FAA officials. Add to that another $85 work hour for reporting the results to the FAA."

So about $500. Would make me feel better about flying my family in the 10k hr former 141 bird in my photo, as well as our other four 6k-15k hour pa28s. It's 2 bolts out of 18... not removing the wing.... not seeing the fears of the inspection making the wings fall off. Wish they'd get on with it.

I much prefer knowing the spar isn't cracked than assuming/ hoping it isn't. These planes are getting old. Aluminum cracks from being stressed. Matter of when, not if.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_limit

"Other structural metals, such as aluminium and copper, do not have a distinct limit and will eventually fail even from small stress amplitudes."

It's too bad piper didn't make that spar a bit bigger, but here we are.
 
I'm not your piper expert, so permit me to purpose a question.

Wouldn't any structure that that is moving, leave a tail of some sort?

Structure that is not moving does not develop cracks.
 
I'm not your piper expert, so permit me to purpose a question.

Wouldn't any structure that that is moving, leave a tail of some sort?

Structure that is not moving does not develop cracks.

What structure doesn't move?
 
More worried about this Mx induced failure
FYI: this was addressed in the SNPRM comments section as others brought this up. The feds disagreed and provided the reasoning why.
 
https://generalaviationnews.com/2019/01/03/proposed-ad-could-affect-almost-20000-piper-aircraft/

"To review maintenance records and calculate factored service hours, the FAA estimates two work hours at $85 an hour for $170 per airplane. Total costs for the U.S. fleet: $3.3 million.

The estimated costs to do the eddy current inspection, if needed, is $147.50 per wing spar, according to FAA officials. Add to that another $85 work hour for reporting the results to the FAA."

So about $500. Would make me feel better about flying my family in the 10k hr former 141 bird in my photo, as well as our other four 6k-15k hour pa28s. It's 2 bolts out of 18... not removing the wing.... not seeing the fears of the inspection making the wings fall off. Wish they'd get on with it.

I much prefer knowing the spar isn't cracked than assuming/ hoping it isn't. These planes are getting old. Aluminum cracks from being stressed. Matter of when, not if.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_limit

"Other structural metals, such as aluminium and copper, do not have a distinct limit and will eventually fail even from small stress amplitudes."

It's too bad piper didn't make that spar a bit bigger, but here we are.

It's the bottom 10 bolts not 2 and $147 each wing seems a little low for NDI good luck finding someone qualified for that price.
 
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...iness-directives-piper-aircraft-inc-airplanes

"The FAA agrees to clarify and revise the proposed requirement. The FAA has determined that the requirements in the NPRM to inspect only the two lower outboard bolt holes are adequate. The FAA has not observed a pattern of cracking at other spar hole locations and has not determined the benefit of inspecting additional holes would outweigh the potential of damage from bolt removal. The FAA has revised the proposed inspection requirements in this SNPRM to specify the two lower outboard bolt holes."

Straight from the horse's mouth.
 
I agree that $150 per wing might be a bit low, especially if you have to have someone come in for one plane. I suspect though, that most shops will have multiple, if not multiple dozens, of affected aircraft. Get them all lined up and done in one day.... the actual inspection takes minutes... it's the R&R of fairings and bolts that that takes the time. So even if it costs double.... are you willing to roll the dice for $1000?

FWIW, I can't find the post now, but a member of the pa-32 Facebook group reported getting it done when piper released their SB. He flew to the inspector, total cost as I recall was in the $500 neighborhood.
 
By the way, also from the SNPRM:

REQUEST TO WITHDRAW THE NPRM
Dwight Schrute, Ross Carbiner, Thomas Feminella, AOPA, EAA, GAMA, Piper, and 21 other commenters stated that because the AD was issued as an interim action with a reporting requirement, the AD is inappropriate and does not address a known unsafe condition.

Made me lol
 
$600 is way less than I expected with the way people are balking at this.
 
$600 is way less than I expected with the way people are balking at this.

I'll take @hindsight2020 's principle and raise maintenance induced failure. When this first came out, people panicked to get it done. Lot's of questions on the Piper forums along the lines of "my A/P can't get the bolt out, is he using a bit enough hammer, or does he need a torch?"

For my own plane, I'm comfortable with my mechanic's ability to get the bolt out. Who wants to buy the plane where someone shows you their eddy current inspection sticker, look ma no cracks! I sure don't. There were a series of planes inspected right after ERAU crash. All were flight school planes. One had a similar crack, also an ERAU plane. I'd be looking at maintenance practices there vs making a bunch of unneeded and potentially dangerous inspections.

For the whole PA28 line, there have been two wing separations that were the root cause of a crash, the ERAU one and a pipeline inspection plane. Yes that joint has potential issues, but beating the crap out of the plane seems to be needed for it to be a real problem.
 
with the way people are balking at this.
FWIW: From my experience, a number of people do not know or understand the details of the inspection. I've been following this AD and the SB for a couple old clients who have PA-28s. It seems the minute eddy current was required most people knee-jerked and saw nothing but $$$. However, with a SNPRM being released it's obvious the feds are rethinking a number of requirements. But as it stands now, if the owner/pilot remains allowed to do the mx research, the eddy current inspection criteria standard is expanded, and they keep the AMOC ability, I think this inspection will be very affordable and manageable in the end.
 
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