Piper Comanche 250 vs Mooney M20F which one is better?

For what it’s worth a PA24 hasn’t been manufactured in 45 years. M20s are still in production.


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Checkout_my_Six said:
you think he'll buy a new one?......No chance. :D
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Nice to have a factory making parts etc, cmon, you know darn well there are support benefits. Also number produced, etc.


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gsengle said:
Nice to have a factory making parts etc, cmon, you know darn well there are support benefits. Also number produced, etc.


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Mooney must be special because that sure doesn't apply to most manufacturers support of obsolete models. Textron = "Oh we don't have those in stock but we can make you one and deliver it in three month for an ungodly expense." The months later = "the tooling must have been destroyed because we couldn't locate it, we need more money and another 3 months."
 
bnt83 said:
Mooney must be special because that sure doesn't apply to most manufacturers support of obsolete models.
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That doesn’t make sense. Any time you buy any airframe it’s helpful if the manufacturer is still making it and or still in business. Nothing special about Mooney.

The reason the Comanche stopped production in 1972 was due to the destruction of tooling in a flood...

I’m a piper fan, I owned one.


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Checkout_my_Six said:
most parts don't come from the factory.....thought you'd know that. :D
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Boy you guys are insecure.

Someone making this decision should factor all this in. “For what it’s worth”.

“Most” parts. But if you need one, you’re SOL or looking for wrecks in the boneyard. You’ve owned airplanes yes? What’s with attack mode here?

How about what are the odds of a serious fleet wide airframe AD being addressed promptly? I don’t know, I’m throwing it out for discussion. It would be my concern...

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Took a look at a few Comanche ads.

These are mentioned a few time. What are these?
Aussie tail horn STC
Dukes gear transmission
1000-hour gear AD
Webco gear conduits
 
UngaWunga said:
Took a look at a few Comanche ads.

These are mentioned a few time. What are these?
Aussie tail horn STC
Dukes gear transmission
1000-hour gear AD
Webco gear conduits
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I think you can buy almost every wear part from aftermarket sources for a PA24. New gear conduits should probably outlast the airplane.
1000 hour gear AD is supposed to catch worn out mechanics of the landing gear, its a detailed inspection and a lot like what a transport category airplane would be required to do.

Should just about answer any comanche wear issues known.

http://comanchegear.com/index.php

The Dukes landing gear transmission look identical to the Cessna wing flap actuators and I believe Mooney electric gear actuators.
 
gsengle said:
Boy you guys are insecure.

Someone making this decision should factor all this in. “For what it’s worth”.

“Most” parts. But if you need one, you’re SOL or looking for wrecks in the boneyard. You’ve owned airplanes yes? What’s with attack mode here?

How about what are the odds of a serious fleet wide airframe AD being addressed promptly? I don’t know, I’m throwing it out for discussion. It would be my concern...

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and Beech is still selling Bonanzas....think that makes a hill of beans for my V35A? It doesn't. They don't make parts for a 40 year old plane....but, parts are available. ;)
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
and Beech is still selling Bonanzas....think that makes a hill of beans for my V35A? It doesn't. They don't make parts for a 40 year old plane....but, they are available. ;)
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The M20 type / type certificate is still in production, so not a perfect analogy. But yeah it’s harder owning a classic. It’s true of cars in some ways and even more true of airplanes. I bet Cirrus for example sells on and gets sales based on “we aren’t going anywhere we are the big successful GA manufacturer, will brand X even be there next year”...

People love the Comanche and the Mooney, both have vibrant after markets. It’s just one more of many factors to consider.


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I would be curious to know what parts if any on a current Mooney will fit and are approved for an M20F. I wouldn't put much weight on Mooney still building M20's into my decision.

They are both nice airplanes. I think the Mooney handles a little nicer but the Commanche is more comfortable. Speed per dollar is within a rounding error. I wouldn't expect one to be significantly more expensive to maintain and own over the other but the M20F will have a small advantage there. Pick the one that fits you best and is the nicer one of the two for the dollar and you will be happy.
 
Grum.Man said:
I would be curious to know what parts if any on a current Mooney will fit and are approved for an M20F. I wouldn't put much weight on Mooney still building M20's into my decision.

They are both nice airplanes. I think the Mooney handles a little nicer but the Commanche is more comfortable. Speed per dollar is within a rounding error. I wouldn't expect one to be significantly more expensive to maintain and own over the other but the M20F will have a small advantage there. Pick the one that fits you best and is the nicer one of the two for the dollar and you will be happy.
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Sure they do. It’s the same type certificate with many mods over the years. Same wing for example, just different tips and so on. There is still factory support for earlier models. fwiw


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gsengle said:
Sure they do. It’s the same type certificate with many mods over the years. Same wing for example, just different tips and so on. There is still factory support for earlier models. fwiw


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I call total BS here until you show me some proof that you can go buy a new Ovation wing that is designed for a fiberglass covered steel tube fuselage that will bolt up to an aluminum monocoupe M20F. I'm no Mooney expert by any means but those two airplanes are hardly anything alike.
 
Grum.Man said:
I call total BS here until you show me some proof that you can go buy a new Ovation wing that is designed for a fiberglass covered steel tube fuselage that will bolt up to an aluminum monocoupe M20F. I'm no Mooney expert by any means but those two airplanes are hardly anything alike.
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Example
Same type certificates:

upload_2018-12-31_8-54-42.png

upload_2018-12-31_8-55-23.png

Not really a good comparison to piston aircraft but food for thought.
 
teejayevans said:
Did you take into account the new ones come with winglets, the F didn’t? You can add the winglets to the F if you want.


Tom
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no, I didn't consider that they took an almost 50 year old wing and just slapped a 1 1/2' winglet on it without making a single other change about the wing. no, I did not think that for a second.
 
eman1200 said:
no, I didn't consider that they took an almost 50 year old wing and just slapped a 1 1/2' winglet on it without making a single other change about the wing. no, I did not think that for a second.
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Mooney started putting wingtips on the original wing with the J model. They have been retrofitted to my C. The U & V have a slightly different shape to the wingtips, making them 3" longer to accommodate strobes (which I don't have). My original wingspan is 35', but with the tips it's 36". Just plastic, a few screws and a clear cover for my Nav lights.

Why are we so argumentative today???

P.S.--Mooney model designations go in alphabetical order.
 
Hank S said:
Mooney started putting wingtips on the original wing with the J model. They have been retrofitted to my C. The U & V have a slightly different shape to the wingtips, making them 3" longer to accommodate strobes (which I don't have). My original wingspan is 35', but with the tips it's 36". Just plastic, a few screws and a clear cover for my Nav lights.

Why are we so argumentative today???

P.S.--Mooney model designations go in alphabetical order.
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I'm not arguing anything. I know you might think that an opinion different from one spewed on mooneyspace is arguing but I'm of the opinion that parts from the latest mooney lineup would not be compatible with one from 50 years ago, that's all. some might be, but I personally wouldn't tell someone "parts to a 50 year old mooney should be readily available because they are currently making the U and V models".
 
gsengle said:
People love the Comanche and the Mooney, both have vibrant after markets. It’s just one more of many factors to consider.


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Vibrant is not a word I would have picked to describe the comanche support chain. If Webco decides to pack it up the Comanche is screwed imo. I don't know enough about the mid-body M20s support chain to comment, all I know is I got the slower arrow because I couldn't stand the M20 front seat ergonomics. I would also second the comments about current production not really being relevant to mid body 20s. They are orphaned. Long-body parts catalog are nowhere near identical to the the mid or short bodies just because mooney puts them under the same TCDS.


I do know which one I would pick if these were the only two choices, but that's only valid for the reasons I value, and not all-encompassing for others. So I digress.

UngaWunga said:
What are these?
Aussie tail horn STC
Dukes gear transmission
1000-hour gear AD
Webco gear conduits
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I could expand but it's not worth the flame war. There's more than one way to go 150 knots, that's all I'll say. If you're interested in learning more, hop on over the delphi comanche forum, and lurk for a bit. It was very informative for me. Good luck.
 
UngaWunga said:
Took a look at a few Comanche ads.

These are mentioned a few time. What are these?
Aussie tail horn STC
Dukes gear transmission
1000-hour gear AD
Webco gear conduits
Click to expand...

There is a recurring inspection dye pen AD on the Comanche tail horn. 5 years, 500 hours. The Australian Comanche Owner group designed and got approved a "one and done" replacement. Costs about $3500 installed.

There are two gear transmissions, Dukes and Dura. The Duke's is better quality.

The 1000 hour gear AD requires all landing gear bushings and bolts to be go/no go inspected with guage pins. About 20 hours.

The gear is mechanically operated by big cables pushed and pulled through conduits by the aforementioned. Transmission" Over time, they get worn, dirty and start to bind causing transmission wer. Webco designed and stc'd a Teflon coated cable/conduit replacement.

All this is good stuff to see in an airplane you're considering. The Comanche's a good airplane, but you need to be a hands-on type of guy to keep it up to snuff. Strong airframe, the spar is a freakin' I-beam. There's also something to be said for those parallel valve Lycomings.
 
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teejayevans said:
Did you take into account the new ones come with winglets, the F didn’t? You can add the winglets to the F if you want (they just bolt on).


Tom
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Actually they are the same wing...


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Grum.Man said:
I call total BS here until you show me some proof that you can go buy a new Ovation wing that is designed for a fiberglass covered steel tube fuselage that will bolt up to an aluminum monocoupe M20F. I'm no Mooney expert by any means but those two airplanes are hardly anything alike.
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Actually the airplanes are remarkably alike. I suggest you look into it if you’re curious, but these airplanes haven’t changed that much. They didn’t change the wing to go to a fiberglass cockpit by the way, the new shell just attaches to the modified roll cage.


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Checkout_my_Six said:
landing gear needs attention regularly....bungees get replaced every 3 years for the Comanche.
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Mooney has gear donuts, which have about a 10 year life(replaced on condition) Also the fuel tanks are sealed compartments in the wing which can/will leak over time(especially if you don't replace the gear donuts), but also is not a calendar time, just on condition. Depending on the year/model there can be a few other things, but at the end of the day so does almost every aircraft.
 
Is there an STC for the IO-720 for the Mooney? No, there is not. If I needed another airplane, I'd make sure it was a Comanche 4-hunnert.

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iamtheari said:
Just buy a plane and fly it. Your paralyzing perfectionism will never get you anywhere.
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It actually does,

I thankfully learn a lot about airplanes on the maintenance side from you guys based on your experiences.

Is it true that not a single Mooney has gone down because of a breakup in flight? Does all Mooneys have a single wing and a roll cage? That has to be an advantage for safety!
 
gsengle said:
They didn’t change the wing to go to a fiberglass cockpit by the way, the new shell just attaches to the modified roll cage.
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Strictly speaking, there was a change for Ultras, although it's not a change to the spar. They added a wing walk on the left side, which is a stamped structure that rivets under the skin. Now both left and right halves of the wing are the same (modulo the pitot). But I see your point: it's the same blessed wing that they put into M20B. Same gazillion of the stupid inspection covers and impossible to reach anything, like the stall switch.
 
Eric Stoltz said:
Is there an STC for the IO-720 for the Mooney? No, there is not. If I needed another airplane, I'd make sure it was a Comanche 4-hunnert.
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Don’t need one, Ovation goes faster and farther on 2 less cylinders and less displacement.

There are reasons not to like a Mooney: sitting position, useful load, stalls and landings are generally more difficult....but lack of speed is not of them.


Tom
 
FloridaPilot said:
Who has flown both? What were your experiences like?

The Mooney F has a 200 HP engine, (360 A1A Lycoming) and the Piper Comanche has a (Lycoming IO-540) 260HP. Average fuel burn is drastically different but a little difference in airspeed Mooney travels at: 151 knots whereas the Piper Comanche travels at 156 knots respectively. Not much difference for the amount of fuel burn.

Overall which airplane has the best value?
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I'll take Mooney for 1000.

I have flown both and prefer the Mooney in regards to how they fly. In a Mooney I feel like I'm driving a sports car, the Comanche a bus. The Mooney is light on the controls and the Comanche will build up your biceps

And I'll go out on a limb and say the Comanche has more recurring AD's. Maybe not

Just my 2 c
 
FloridaPilot said:
It actually does,

I thankfully learn a lot about airplanes on the maintenance side from you guys based on your experiences.

Is it true that not a single Mooney has gone down because of a breakup in flight? Does all Mooneys have a single wing and a roll cage? That has to be an advantage for safety!
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I enjoy your A vs. B threads like this one because I learn a lot about planes that I may eventually want to buy. But I catch myself doing the same thing with cameras ever since my Canon 6D left me, and therefore have no good pictures of my family’s hot air balloon flight that I gave us for Christmas. It would have been better if I had just bought a camera months ago when my mind was 90% made up instead of waiting for 100%.

Based on all your similar threads that I’ve seen to date, I think you should buy a M20F, the first one you find with a good panel and mid-time engine that is a color you kind of like. Then fly it until the wing falls off. You’ll learn more about the best plane for your mission from flying a plane that kind of matches your mission than you will from thinking about it. I have a few hundred hours in my Arrow, which has taught me that I should build a two-seat experimental that will go faster on the same fuel burn, be a little aerobatic, and have as many seats as my logbook says I have a real use for. :)
 
As someone said buy an airplane and fly it. Every airplane is a compromise.
 
gsengle said:
Actually they are the same wing...
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That’s what I what a said, same wing, only difference is the winglets, that and the fuel tanks were expanded.
Also, not only did they not change the wing between models, they didn’t change the position when extending the fuselage between models. That’s why some models are docile doing full stalls and some not so much.
The short bodies are nose heavy so result in a sharp nose drop, the Js are the worst, starting with the Ks they added a longer and heavier engines, restoring nose heavier balance.
The planes are similar but not the same. The parts that will be difficult to source is OEM things like gear actuators,electric fuel pumps, limit switches. I believe Mooney has provided service bulletins that allow retrofitting newer parts, at least on the J which was in production for 20 years. If buying an old plane, might need to resort to using owner produced parts.


Tom
 
Based on this thread, I'd get a Comanche.

But I put a significant premium on interior space.

Fortunately, I can't afford to buy another plane.

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I haven't flown an F, but I have flown a J and I own an R, and I've flown the PA24-250.

Really, you'll be happy with either. I would say that if you need to haul a bigger load than the Mooney will do, get the Comanche. While the Comanche can haul more and has a wider cabin, it also has a few more maintenance issues, mostly involving the landing gear, and it will burn more fuel. But, overall, they're pretty close.

If efficiency is more important, get the Mooney. If load hauling is more important, get the Comanche. Six of one, half a dozen of the other as my dad would say. Both are fine airplanes.

Whichever way you go, learn about the details of the particular type before you buy. For example, the Comanche gear maintenance and ADs and the various possible fuel tank configurations (IMO, more fuel capacity is always better, and a Comanche can have between 60 and 120 gallons). On the Mooney, learn about fuel tank sealing and the various "J mods" that give the F some of the lower drag and speed of the J, as you can get an M20DamnNearJ for a lot less money than an actual J.

Either way, once you find your plane, fly the hell out of it and don't look back. My Mooney just got me from the gulf coast (Houston) back home to Wisconsin in 5 hours today. Love it... And you'll be happy no matter which of those planes you buy. (In case I haven't said that enough times already)
 
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