Piper Cherokee 180 toe brakes addition

ColdFront

ColdFront

Filing Flight Plan
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ColdFront
Hi all. I'm very new to aviation and considering buying a Piper Cherokee 180 that has toe brakes only on the left side (just rudder pedals on the right side). Has anyone attempted to install toe brakes where none came with the plane? If so, I am very interested in your experience. Thanks!
 
Not the answer you are looking for but toe brakes on the right are really unnecessary. There is positive nosewheel steering and a hand brake in the center for a nervous CFI.
 
I fly a cherokee 180, Clark flys a larger version of the cherokee. Unless you'll only fly from the right seat with no one in the left seat, as Clark pointed out, there's the handbrake. It works very well.
 
Clark1961 said:
Not the answer you are looking for but toe brakes on the right are really unnecessary. There is positive nosewheel steering and a hand brake in the center for a nervous CFI.
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Toe brakes are unnecessary on the left too. My old Cherokee only had a hand brake...
 
At first glance I thought the title said toe break addiction. I thought it was about somebody that used their brakes too much. lol.
 
Removing them would work too... As long as things are symmetrical I guess ;)
 
Hi Coldfront. I have installed right side toebrakes on a 180. Was very happy and never regretted it. There is some pain involved.
 
I ad a Cherokee with only left (pilot's side) brakes. Never even thought of adding to the right. Got to the point I used the handbrake more and more during runway slowdown. I can't imagine going thru the expense/trouble adding them to the right side.
 
There's a door on the right side. That should be enough for the person in that seat. :)
My first Cherokee had no toe brakes, just the lever under the panel. I thought it would be a problem and looked into installing toe brakes. But after flying the airplane a few hours I never bothered and never missed them.
 
Thanks all. I'm at a tiny airport in northern Jersey with narrow and windy "taxiways". The Cessna 172 I'm currently training on only turns with the application of brakes on one side at low taxi speed. It sounds like the Cherokee will be more responsive to the rudder pedals alone.
I'll give it a shot and report back.
Focal_plane, thanks. Might have to ask you more about the level of pain involved.. Cheers all!!
 
ColdFront said:
Thanks all. I'm at a tiny airport in northern Jersey with narrow and windy "taxiways". The Cessna 172 I'm currently training on only turns with the application of brakes on one side at low taxi speed. It sounds like the Cherokee will be more responsive to the rudder pedals alone.
I'll give it a shot and report back.
Focal_plane, thanks. Might have to ask you more about the level of pain involved.. Cheers all!!
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Yup, unlike the cezzna in a Piper you get more than just a vote on where the aircraft might be headed when taxiing.
 
Dude no!!!! I have the toe brakes in my Cherokee 140 and they suck compared to the hand brake. They are essentially useless. You lose a lot of the effectiveness because of all the pressure loss that occurs to do the different bends and fittings that have to be used.
 
thats your CFI's problem, not yours. you are already paying him for lessons and planning to spend a bunch more to solve his problem
 
CC268 said:
Dude no!!!! I have the toe brakes in my Cherokee 140 and they suck compared to the hand brake. They are essentially useless. You lose a lot of the effectiveness because of all the pressure loss that occurs to do the different bends and fittings that have to be used.
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The hand brake pumps the fluid through the master cylinders on the toe brakes and out to the calipers. If your theory was true the hand brake would be even less effective.

Sounds like your brakes need work. Not surprising, I think mechanics often avoid doing anything with the Cherokee master cylinders because they're a pain to deal with.
 
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CC268 said:
Dude no!!!! I have the toe brakes in my Cherokee 140 and they suck compared to the hand brake. They are essentially useless. You lose a lot of the effectiveness because of all the pressure loss that occurs to do the different bends and fittings that have to be used.
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Interesting. The toe brakes on the 'Kota are effective. I use them while starting and during runup instead of the hand brake. I think a few of the details on master cylinders changed over the years but all my info is second hand.
 
mondtster said:
The hand brake pumps the fluid through the master cylinders on the toe brakes and out to the calipers right. If your theory was true the hand brake would be even less effective.

Sounds like your brakes need work. Not surprising, I think mechanics often avoid doing anything with the Cherokee master cylinders because they're a pain to deal with.
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Hmm...maybe so? Idk my hand brake works great monster man
 
Clark1961 said:
Interesting. The toe brakes on the 'Kota are effective. I use them while starting and during runup instead of the hand brake. I think a few of the details on master cylinders changed over the years but all my info is second hand.
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Yea idk...my hand brake works great so I never bothered trying to figure out the mushy toe brakes
 
Well that seals it. It's off the table then. Incidentally, I test flew a Grumman cheetah today, and the only way to steer that thing is with the rudder brakes.. (coaster nose wheel). Fun plane.
 
Well I gone done bought that Cherokee... Steers just fine with the rudder pedals! I guess the toe brakes are just a bonus. Thanks all .
 
I trained in a Cherokee 180 with NO toe brakes on either side. Nothing but the hand brake.

Oddly, when I bought the RV it only had toe brakes on the pilot side. I added them to the co-pilot side.

But then, the difference is that the Cherokee is steered on the ground by the rods connected to the nose wheel, but the RV is controlled on the ground with differential braking.

So, what's your goal?
 
:)
ColdFront said:
Well I gone done bought that Cherokee... Steers just fine with the rudder pedals! I guess the toe brakes are just a bonus. Thanks all .
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Congrats on the purchase and glad the advice works out for you. Sometimes we know what we are typing about even if the ATPs and IAs like to sneer at us.
 
ColdFront said:
Well that seals it. It's off the table then. Incidentally, I test flew a Grumman cheetah today, and the only way to steer that thing is with the rudder brakes.. (coaster nose wheel). Fun plane.
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From the pedantic crowd: Planes with castering (not coaster) nose wheels require differential braking from the TOE brakes. There are no rudder brakes I'm aware of.

And the pedals work effectively on the Cherokee as previously mentioned because they have direct rods from the pedal to the nose wheel.

Don't try to a Cessna style rudder check on the ground in a Piper.
 
Ravioli said:
And the pedals work effectively on the Cherokee as previously mentioned because they have direct rods from the pedal to the nose wheel.

Don't try to a Cessna style rudder check on the ground in a Piper.
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Depends on the model year. Sometime in the '70s (can't remember when) Piper added the bungee type steering rods similar to what the Cessnas have. From that point on the steering is a little more mushy but it will still turn plenty sharp on the ground even without brakes.
 
I have checked out several new Cherokee owners that purchased Cherokee's that didn't have toe brakes on either side. All have investigated adding toe brakes but after a few hours flying the Cherokee decided the Cherokee doesn't need them and they are not worth the expense to install.

Unlike the Cessna, the Cherokee has a direct (as opposed to spring) connection to the nose wheel. So you have to press harder on the Cherokee pedal but the plane turns immediately when you do.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
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brcase said:
I have checked out several new Cherokee owners that purchased Cherokee's that didn't have toe brakes on either side. All have investigated adding toe brakes but after a few hours flying the Cherokee decided the Cherokee doesn't need them and they are not worth the expense to install.

Unlike the Cessna, the Cherokee has a direct (as opposed to spring) connection to the nose wheel. So you have to press harder on the Cherokee pedal but the plane turns immediately when you do.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
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Mine is connected by bungee. Need to make tight turns frequently. Absolutely no regrets adding toe brakes.
 
Thank you Clark1961. As I'm sure all you guys know, it's some pretty exciting thing having a first plane.
Interesting about the rod vs bungee. I will be at the airport Friday, and will check which I have, but my initial impression is steering is waaaay more responsive than the 172
 
I thought I would want to add toe brakes but with the direct-connected steering I no longer have any desire to spend the money or add the complexity and weight.
 
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