Piper Cherokee 160 and 4 adults

After looking up some of the suggested planes, I realized I should let you all know what kind of budget I'm working with! Lol! Dakotas are beautiful, but hot damn are they pricey.

I'm buying cash with a budget between 30-40k... maybe that'll help :D or maybe I should start a new thread...

Yall are freaking awesome. Thanks for all the advice! I'll start a new thread with more details of what I'm looking for, so I can get some great suggestions. Thank you all very much!
 
My 160 has a gross wt of 2150#. Useful load is 756. 4 FAA adults would leave room for about 12 gal of fuel. My 65# Lab fills up the back seat.
Yours must be a -140 converted to 160 hp. PA-28-160s from the factory had a gross weight of 2200 lb.

A Cherokee 160 doesn't have much room in the back (same as a pre-1973 Cherokee 150 or 180), but a Cherokee 140 has even less leg room for the rear seats, if installed.
 
Wow! Lots of valuable info, thank you good sir!

Well maybe I need to broaden the scope of my search. I only know of Tradeaplane and Craigslist. Are there any other good used aircraft sites I can browse? The other ones I've found don't have much.

Barnstormers.com

Controller.com

Hangar67.com

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And be aware that the listed price isn't usually the price an aircraft sells for. It's negotiable. If you want over time and bookmark planes of interest, you'll see three different types of ads:

1) Aircraft that sell within a few days - usually due to the price being so attractive that people just write the check.

2) Aircraft that sell in 2-4 weeks that are probably right priced and/or have an owner that is either motivated to sell or realistic about the selling price being lower than the listed price.

3) Aircraft that have been listed for several months with little no change in list price. Those are sellers who either don't really want to sell or are totally unrealistic about the market value of their aircraft.

For example there is a 1954 PA-18-135 on Trade A Plane that's been for sale since at least November for $83,900. I learned to fly in a 1954 PA-18-135 in 1982, albeit one that was upgraded to PA-18-150 status with an O-320, so I have a sweet spot for them. It's a nice looking aircraft with a 560 hour SMOH engine, fabric, paint and interior in good condition, and some nice extras like ADS-B and VGs.

On the other hand, it also has a 135 hp O-290 and a 1500 lb gross weight, where the O-320 powered PA-18-150 only weighs about 20 pounds more, has 15 more hp, and a 1750 pound gross weight as well as much better parts availability when it comes time to overhaul the engine.

For those reasons or perhaps issues that come up in a pre-buy, lots of time sitting and not flying, etc, it's not selling at that price and the owner isn't coming down on the price even though it is clearly in excess of the market value - even for a Supercub.
 
I've been looking on Craigslist and trade a plane for the last few months, and this one ... has a lot of time left between overhauls.

When was it overhauled, and by what shop?
 
After looking up some of the suggested planes, I realized I should let you all know what kind of budget I'm working with! Lol! Dakotas are beautiful, but hot damn are they pricey.

I'm buying cash with a budget between 30-40k... maybe that'll help :D or maybe I should start a new thread...

Yall are freaking awesome. Thanks for all the advice! I'll start a new thread with more details of what I'm looking for, so I can get some great suggestions. Thank you all very much!

What are you budgeting for expenses? They add up. Knowing this is key to what you can afford to pay for a plane. Consider maintenance (annual inspections are just a part of that), insurance, hangar rental, taxes (vary by state), plus your ability to actually fly it every month (fuel, oil, $100 hamburgers, etc.). $1,000 per month on average is not unusual. Then there are the inevitable upgrades that you will want.

Again, not at all trying to talk you out of it, just pointing out some of the joys of ownership. And no, even after 20+ years of ownership, I have no regrets.
 
After looking up some of the suggested planes, I realized I should let you all know what kind of budget I'm working with! Lol! Dakotas are beautiful, but hot damn are they pricey.

I'm buying cash with a budget between 30-40k... maybe that'll help :D or maybe I should start a new thread...

Yall are freaking awesome. Thanks for all the advice! I'll start a new thread with more details of what I'm looking for, so I can get some great suggestions. Thank you all very much!

Dakota's are pricey because of the capability.

You should be able to find a Warrior in the $35K to $40K range, and even find one with a low to mid time engine.

As noted above, they are comfortable four passenger aircraft if you fill them to the tabs, and three passenger aircraft if you fill them up.

A Warrior will give you around 100 kts cruise at about 5500 ft at 55% power burning about 8 gallons per hour, and about 110 kts cruise at about 6500 ft at 65% power burning about 9 gallons per hour, so filling it to the tabs will still give you about 3 to 3.5 hours of flight time plus a VFR reserve.
 
Dakota's are pricey because of the capability.

You should be able to find a Warrior in the $35K to $40K range, and even find one with a low to mid time engine.

As noted above, they are comfortable four passenger aircraft if you fill them to the tabs, and three passenger aircraft if you fill them up.

A Warrior will give you around 100 kts cruise at about 5500 ft at 55% power burning about 8 gallons per hour, and about 110 kts cruise at about 6500 ft at 65% power burning about 9 gallons per hour, so filling it to the tabs will still give you about 3 to 3.5 hours of flight time plus a VFR reserve.
This might be a stupid question, but I'm a newbie so meh... what does it mean to fill the the tabs?
 
This might be a stupid question, but I'm a newbie so meh... what does it mean to fill the the tabs?

Each tank holds 25 gallons max. There is a tab inside each tank that denotes the 17 gallon level.
 
What are you budgeting for expenses? They add up. Knowing this is key to what you can afford to pay for a plane. Consider maintenance (annual inspections are just a part of that), insurance, hangar rental, taxes (vary by state), plus your ability to actually fly it every month (fuel, oil, $100 hamburgers, etc.). $1,000 per month on average is not unusual. Then there are the inevitable upgrades that you will want.

Again, not at all trying to talk you out of it, just pointing out some of the joys of ownership. And no, even after 20+ years of ownership, I have no regrets.
Well part of my approach is partnering with an A&P on the plane with rights to fly whenever they want. That should help on cost, but honestly I'm not too worried about the cost of ownership. I have no debt and about 2k in free cash flow every month to support my habit. I think that should be plenty?
 
When was it overhauled, and by what shop?
Don't quite have that information yet :/

TT on aircraft is about 4088, and 989 since last overhaul. I'd imagine its been quite some time. He's owned it for 10 years. At an average of 77 hours per year, I'm guessing 12 years ago, at least! But who knows! Once he tells me he's interested in my offer, I'll get all the info :)
 
Don't quite have that information yet :/

TT on aircraft is about 4088, and 989 since last overhaul. I'd imagine its been quite some time. He's owned it for 10 years. At an average of 77 hours per year, I'm guessing 12 years ago, at least! But who knows! Once he tells me he's interested in my offer, I'll get all the info :)

The reason for my question... there is potentially large valuation difference between an engine that was overhauled 5 years ago vs. say 25. Not that either is necessarily unairworthy.
 
Yeah I definitely plan on checking it out in the next week or two. He's thinking on my offer, so hopefully he'll accept! Know any good A&Ps out there??
I can ask around. Just got my PPL a month ago and did all my training out of Bremerton with Avian Flight Center. I know they have a shop and can ask my instructor if he would recommend an A&P for you.
 
I can ask around. Just got my PPL a month ago and did all my training out of Bremerton with Avian Flight Center. I know they have a shop and can ask my instructor if he would recommend an A&P for you.
Gotta love the aviation community man. That would be awesome, thank you!
 
Gotta love the aviation community man. That would be awesome, thank you!
Just sent you a message, I hope with the person my instructor recommends. I've never sent a pm on here so hopefully, the conversation tab was the right way to do it.
 
Or in 1960's terms... a base Nova to a Chevelle SS.

Chevelle's didn't handle as well as Comanches and weren't so relatively economical. Maybe comparing a Nova to a Corvette.

Well originally I was looking for a 140, but then I started to realize how underpowered they are.

I've been looking on Craigslist and trade a plane for the last few months, and this one fits my budget at the moment, and has a lot of time left between overhauls. The avionics in this plane are definitely something I'm not the most excited.about, but overall it seems like a solid plane.

I'm buying in cash, and my budget grows about 2k each month, so saving for a nicer plane wouldn't take too long.

Ideally, I'd love a Grumman tiger but they seem hard to come by. There's an AA5 traveler for sale that caught my eye, but its only a 2 seater :/

Travelers are 4 seaters. They are also absolute bargains and can take any avionics that a Tiger or Cheetah can. They are also usually faster than a Cheetah, thanks to the smaller tail.
 
A Grumman tiger would be 4 seats. A Yankee would be 2 seats. I learned to fly in those pa28s when they were new. I’d pass. Upgrade on Avionics will cost you as much as the plane. I’m thinking the aren’t easy to sell. Might be lots of planes coming up for sale with people being out of work. I’ve owned a commanche and a Malibu both. They are good planes but I like high wing for ease of entry and exit. Especially for older folks. I’d keep looking myself. Saying all this, it is nice to have your own plane I fly a older 210 turbo now and for me it’s perfect
 
Fill a Cherokee to the tabs you can take 4, so long as they aren't huge people. Did it more than once. If anyone is much bigger than a standard FAA-sized person you run out of payload fast. If flying 4 adults is really part of your mission you need more airplane. Rent something bigger for 4, fly your family around in the Cherokee.
 
The reason for my question... there is potentially large valuation difference between an engine that was overhauled 5 years ago vs. say 25. Not that either is necessarily unairworthy.

There are a couple of potential pitfalls when an engine has not been flown regularly.

1) Corrosion.

The coating of oil on some engine surfaces, most notably the cam lobes and the cylinder bores, is lost after 3-4 weeks of non operation.

Corrosion on the cylinder walls is the lesser of the evils but if it is significant it will increase oil consumption and blowby, and can cause piston ring issues. Engines that have been run regularly in service for 50 or so hours tend to have a varish on the cylinder that helps prevent corrosion and in a dry climate that can be sufficient to protect them for several weeks.

Corrosion on the cam lobes is big fear as they are face hardened for wear resistance, and if that hard outer surface is compromised by a pit from corrosion, it will start to spall or flake off. You can't just pull a pushrod and inspect the cam lobe on most Lycoming engines, so it's hard to detect unless you pull a cylinder, and removing a cylinder is expensive, and has a whole host of potential risks, such as not getting a proper preload on the studs and through bolts when re-installing it, which can result in losing a cylinder in flight.

There are some things that help protect the engine.

Straight weight mineral oil does a better job of protecting internal surfaces on infrequently flown engines than multiweight oils that use a 15W base.

Cam Guard or oils like Aeroshell 100 Plus with similar additive packages also help reduce the potential for corrosion.

Running the engine on the ground doesn't usually get the oil up to the 180 degrees or so it needs to eliminate fuel and water that get in the oil through condensation and from priming the engine. Water aids corrosion and fuel in the oil increases the acidity, which also causes corrosion issues. The aircraft really needs to be flown for at least 30 minutes at least monthly for optimum health.

A dry climate will go a long way toward preventing problems in unflown, or infrequently flown engines. If the humidity seldom gets about 30% corrosion is usually not an issue.

Storage in a hangar also helps as it greatly reduces the daily temperature changes and potential for condensation in the engine.

If an engine is flown seasonally, and stored for more than a month, it should be stored with a fresh oil change using an oil like Shell 2XN, or Shell 2XN fluid mixed with Aeroshell 100. The latter can be flown, but not more than 50 hours per TBO cycle, the former should be changed before you fly the aircraft.

If a horizontally opposed engine is pickled long term, it's usually filled with a preservative oil and then stored inverted so the cam is submerged in oil. All the openings are covered and desiccant plugs are placed in each cylinder. If really done right it'll be sealed in plastic, with either dry nitrogen, or vacuum packed and then crated to protect the sealed bag. The military used to pickle small engines in airtight sealed cans and they'd store safely for decades in that condition.

2) Engine AD compliance

If an engine has gaps in it's airworthiness you can run into issues with old ADs where components needed to be changed out after either so many hours or after a calendar limit. Engine accessories can be affected, and some non Lycoming, non Continental cylinders have been subject to replacement requirements over the years. Check to engine logs and the information on the last overhaul very carefully so you know what you might be getting into.

Manufacturers will usually have a suggested calendar limit between overhauls, such as 12 years. However on a 2000 hour or 2400 hour TBO that's 167 to 200 hours per year, and not likely to be met by the average owner. Consequently, finding engines overhauled well over 15-20 years ago is common, and not really an issue if it's flown regularly and maintained in airworthy status.

-----

Properly maintained and flown monthly, even just for 30 minutes (6 hours per year), would be enough to prevent any significant issues. It's a lot less about the time per year and more about the gaps in between flights, as well as the climate and storage conditions. For example, I used to own a PA-12 that had been stored in a hangar on a ranch for over 20 years without flying. The O-235 engine had 900 hours on it before it was stored and had no corrosion issues when we got the plane airworthy. But it was hangared and in a dry climate. That same engine in an aircraft stored outside on a ramp in Florida would probably have issues after 2-3 months.
 
There are a couple of potential pitfalls when an engine has not been flown regularly.

1) Corrosion.

The coating of oil on some engine surfaces, most notably the cam lobes and the cylinder bores, is lost after 3-4 weeks of non operation.

Corrosion on the cylinder walls is the lesser of the evils but if it is significant it will increase oil consumption and blowby, and can cause piston ring issues. Engines that have been run regularly in service for 50 or so hours tend to have a varish on the cylinder that helps prevent corrosion and in a dry climate that can be sufficient to protect them for several weeks.

Corrosion on the cam lobes is big fear as they are face hardened for wear resistance, and if that hard outer surface is compromised by a pit from corrosion, it will start to spall or flake off. You can't just pull a pushrod and inspect the cam lobe on most Lycoming engines, so it's hard to detect unless you pull a cylinder, and removing a cylinder is expensive, and has a whole host of potential risks, such as not getting a proper preload on the studs and through bolts when re-installing it, which can result in losing a cylinder in flight.

There are some things that help protect the engine.

Straight weight mineral oil does a better job of protecting internal surfaces on infrequently flown engines than multiweight oils that use a 15W base.

Cam Guard or oils like Aeroshell 100 Plus with similar additive packages also help reduce the potential for corrosion.

Running the engine on the ground doesn't usually get the oil up to the 180 degrees or so it needs to eliminate fuel and water that get in the oil through condensation and from priming the engine. Water aids corrosion and fuel in the oil increases the acidity, which also causes corrosion issues. The aircraft really needs to be flown for at least 30 minutes at least monthly for optimum health.

A dry climate will go a long way toward preventing problems in unflown, or infrequently flown engines. If the humidity seldom gets about 30% corrosion is usually not an issue.

Storage in a hangar also helps as it greatly reduces the daily temperature changes and potential for condensation in the engine.

If an engine is flown seasonally, and stored for more than a month, it should be stored with a fresh oil change using an oil like Shell 2XN, or Shell 2XN fluid mixed with Aeroshell 100. The latter can be flown, but not more than 50 hours per TBO cycle, the former should be changed before you fly the aircraft.

If a horizontally opposed engine is pickled long term, it's usually filled with a preservative oil and then stored inverted so the cam is submerged in oil. All the openings are covered and desiccant plugs are placed in each cylinder. If really done right it'll be sealed in plastic, with either dry nitrogen, or vacuum packed and then crated to protect the sealed bag. The military used to pickle small engines in airtight sealed cans and they'd store safely for decades in that condition.

2) Engine AD compliance

If an engine has gaps in it's airworthiness you can run into issues with old ADs where components needed to be changed out after either so many hours or after a calendar limit. Engine accessories can be affected, and some non Lycoming, non Continental cylinders have been subject to replacement requirements over the years. Check to engine logs and the information on the last overhaul very carefully so you know what you might be getting into.

Manufacturers will usually have a suggested calendar limit between overhauls, such as 12 years. However on a 2000 hour or 2400 hour TBO that's 167 to 200 hours per year, and not likely to be met by the average owner. Consequently, finding engines overhauled well over 15-20 years ago is common, and not really an issue if it's flown regularly and maintained in airworthy status.

-----

Properly maintained and flown monthly, even just for 30 minutes (6 hours per year), would be enough to prevent any significant issues. It's a lot less about the time per year and more about the gaps in between flights, as well as the climate and storage conditions. For example, I used to own a PA-12 that had been stored in a hangar on a ranch for over 20 years without flying. The O-235 engine had 900 hours on it before it was stored and had no corrosion issues when we got the plane airworthy. But it was hangared and in a dry climate. That same engine in an aircraft stored outside on a ramp in Florida would probably have issues after 2-3 months.
So what you're saying is... find a high time plane that has been well maintained... lol
 
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