Piper as a newbie owner?

[arnoha]

Now I did say no retracts and that is because I'm worried that maintenance will get out of hand but I have seen some Mooney's that fit the profile perfectly. It is probably wise to get it checked yearly but how expensive is the overall cost to maintain retracts?

Mooney is not a good choice for a low time pilot. The laminar-flow wing is quite unforgiving, but you get speed and efficiency in exchange. That gentle stall you're used to with the Piper is traded for a sharp wing drop if you're even a little uncoordinated. A bounce the Piper would absorb can become a wheelbarrow prop strike on the Mooney. They're great planes, but more demanding to fly and will punish you more harshly for mistakes. It's not that they can't be flown safely by low time pilots, it just requires a lot more care and training.

 

[gov98]

I just feel like if it's at that price, and the vast majority are around 50, it's going to cost me 15 to get from 35 to 50. What's a rebuild on an engine cost?

You're also right about the function of Barnstormers. The GUI on that website makes my eyes cross though. Tough for my brain to process the circa 1999 geocities-esque website. =)

There was a pretty interesting analysis a while back about why "most of the time it feels like I pick the wrong lane in traffic". The basic jist of it was is what causes one of the lanes to be worse than the others is the fact that more drivers are independently choosing to be in "that lane" as a result the modal vehicle will in fact be sitting in more traffic than the others, and more vehicles will be going slower than those few going faster. (What does that have to do with the price of tea in China you ask...?)

Planes that are priced right will actually move pretty quick. So you won't see many listings at market clearing price because they'll get sold and deleted. You will see asking prices regularly above market clearing price because the listings will sit precisely because they're above market clearing price. My guess is based upon a situation where I almost sold my arrow is that 30-40 is pretty reasonable for a number of arrow 1 configurations weighted re:times and conditions. Just my opinion, but the fact that most listing you see are at 50 is really irrelevant because it's the over priced planes you'll see the most of.

 

[GRG55]

No no no no. You're absolutely right. Cosmetics are secondary. I'm way more concerned about mechanical first, damage, then complete logs, then finally cosmetics. And I don't know. I just feel like if it's at that price, and the vast majority are around 50, it's going to cost me 15 to get from 35 to 50. What's a rebuild on an engine cost?

You're also right about the function of Barnstormers. The GUI on that website makes my eyes cross though. Tough for my brain to process the circa 1999 geocities-esque website. =)

LOL Okay you win on the Barnstormer's thing. I am ancient, from the days when GUI meant Mrs. GRG55 corralled me into mucking out her horse stalls.

Spending more money on the purchase doesn't necessarily mean the airplane will be more reliable or less expensive to own and fly after you buy it. And many airplanes are overpriced asking because too many owner think their airplane is "better" than all the others.

There are engines that have legitimate reputations for longevity and those that don't. The Lycoming in a NA Arrow is not a highly stressed engine. If the logs are good, oil changes documented, the airplane has been flown regularly, the compression, borescope & oil filter inspections during the pre-purchase check out okay, there is no more risk of a problem in a $35k Cherokee as there is in a $60k example.

And regardless of price, if the rest of the airplane hasn't been maintained mechanically, the engine won't have been either. Run, don't walk in that case.

 

[ircphoenix]

That is brilliant. Did not even think about the listings... that's very true. A plane priced a bit higher than the market will tolerate is going to hang out for a while... and anything less than that will go quicker... so odds are you won't be seeing a plethora of planes priced for what the market will tolerate.

And regardless of the risk of mechanical issues arising, if you get a timed out engine, how much are you looking at to rebuild the engine?

 

[fiveoboy01]

Mooney is not a good choice for a low time pilot. The laminar-flow wing is quite unforgiving, but you get speed and efficiency in exchange. That gentle stall you're used to with the Piper is traded for a sharp wing drop if you're even a little uncoordinated. A bounce the Piper would absorb can become a wheelbarrow prop strike on the Mooney. They're great planes, but more demanding to fly and will punish you more harshly for mistakes. It's not that they can't be flown safely by low time pilots, it just requires a lot more care and training.

I know someone who went from a Cherokee 180 to a Mooney M20J and he echoes these sentiments.

 

[paflyer]

I got an arrow 180 for ~35k with ~500 hrs smoh... The recent annual was $650. Insurance on hull value of 30k is ~650/yr (250 hrs 120 retract and ir) last year it was about 800/yr (no ir and 25 hrs retract). I wish it were faster... You're going to it's just going to happen. A headwind of 25 kts eats into 135 kts bad enough...it's only worse at 120.

If you're set on a piper non-retract I'd say try to find a Cherokee 235... But a Cherokee 180 is really the minimum. I understand your like for pipers, I prefer them myself.

Annual $650?? Where do you live, Ghana?
My Cherokee 140 is $1100 or so just for the inspection. SE PA location. Always another 500-1500 in squawks.

 

[paflyer]

I think low wing pipers are great planes but there are two reasons why I like high wings in Florida: 1) Sun shade, and 2) shelter during rain showers that hit during your pre-flight, or just after you landed and are trying to unload the plane.

Not specific to florida, but 3) multiple doors, 4) not having to lie on ground during pre-flight (although no ladder necessary) and 5) room to walk under a wing in a hangar round out the other reasons why I'm resistant to go low wing for my next plane.

Why do you have to lie on the ground for preflight?

 

[Hank S]

The brand of airplane is immaterial, what counts is good mechanical condition, and suitability for what you want to use the plane for.

A Mooney M20-C will match speed (but not payload) with a Cherokee 235, and do it on half the fuel. Maybe a little faster. Faster than an Arrow, also on less fuel, and probably higher full fuel payload. It's available with manual or electric gear, maintenance is generally very minor but it must be jacked up and raised every year at annual. Mine has 27 grease fittings that I crawl around and find every year, too.

Insurance will not be friendly in any retract or anything that is or flies like High Performance, at least for the first year. Fly a lot, and insurance should be significantly less the second year. Call a broker and ask some general questions to get a feel for thus. Whenever I buy a car, I ALWAYS call the insurance company to check rates, and saved my bacon once (I could have afforded the car payments OR the insurance payments, but not both!).

Whatever you do, whenever you buy whichever plane, have fun, fly it a lot, and be safe!

P.S.--my annual in January was $850, right here in the U.S. of A.!

 

[gov98]

Annual $650?? Where do you live, Ghana?
My Cherokee 140 is $1100 or so just for the inspection. SE PA location. Always another 500-1500 in squawks.

I'm pretty fortunate, I'm in a not too busy area of Southern California (but not LA area quite a ways out from there.) In any event, the A&P is really good, largely encourages Owner Assist, did a bunch of the work myself in terms of the drudge work (turning screws, removing seats, etc., cleaning the spark plugs.)

 

[ircphoenix]

Annual $650?? Where do you live, Ghana?

OMFG. I think I wet myself a little bit. *golf clap*

I need @GRG55 to get back in here and tell me how much it's gonna cost me to rebuild an engine on my Arrow I haven't purchased yet. =D

 

[Theboys]

I'm guessing to rebuild a small lycoming or continental your going to have minimum of 25000 to 40000 in it. Now a 0-320 can be rebuilt for less. Maybe as low as 13000 without rebuilding the peripherals and labor to r&r. But most jobs are going to cost closer to the higher range. Also just because tbo is 2000 hrs or whatever doesn't mean motor will have to be rebuilt then. We have a 0-320e2d that has around 3000 hrs and still runs great. Still only uses a quart between oil changes.

 

[CRAFT]

Been a Piper fan for decades. Don't dislike Cessna but prefer low wing design. The Archer is a good easy to fly platform and can (and has) gotten me across the U.S. Not a speed merchant plane but good enough and stable. The late model 180s and the 235s are good airframes. I doubt that you will find a useable Dakota in that price range, if it is that cheap then the engine is runout and OH is not cheap. I can take my wife and two granddaughters with full fuel on good XC trips in the Archer.

 

[ircphoenix]

I'm guessing to rebuild a small lycoming or continental your going to have minimum of 25000 to 40000 in it. Now a 0-320 can be rebuilt for less. Maybe as low as 13000 without rebuilding the peripherals and labor to r&r. But most jobs are going to cost closer to the higher range. Also just because tbo is 2000 hrs or whatever doesn't mean motor will have to be rebuilt then. We have a 0-320e2d that has around 3000 hrs and still runs great. Still only uses a quart between oil changes.

Good point. I'm pretty sure GRG is just trying to ambush me with an Arrow in need of a rebuild. LoL

 

[Theboys]

Myself when I look for a plane I look first for avionics it has. I also want a two axis autopilot at least. That's 15 to 40g. Then I proceed to airframe and paint and interior. My least concern is usually the engine. If it's high time I want some consideration for hrs or years, but, I don't mind maybe having to buy a new engine if everything is good. One thing to consider is that most ads-b upgrades need a decent waas gps to feed them info. If it doesn't have that your looking at around 10g I figure. Paint and interior are maybe 20g. A new engine with warranty and good for probably as long as you will own the plane is pretty reasonable I figure then.

 

[ircphoenix]

That's all excellent info. Thanks!!

 

[Brad Z]

Why do you have to lie on the ground for preflight?

Sumping the tanks.

 

[GRG55]

Good point. I'm pretty sure GRG is just trying to ambush me with an Arrow in need of a rebuild. LoL

Just because all the Pipers are named after tribes doesn't mean we are trying to ambush you.

imo, you do not want to buy an older Arrow (or any other Piper) that knowingly or likely needs an overhaul. Unless it is a perfect airframe with cherry avionics at a great price, keep looking. It is not difficult to determine if an engine is mechanically sound as part of a good pre-purchase inspection. We are getting to the point where it is cheaper to buy another airplane with half-time engine(s) than it is to overhaul one. In my case I can buy an Aztec with good mid-time engines, swap them into my plane, sell the extra props, avionics and my old engine cores, part out the airframe and be way ahead of paying to overhaul two IO-540s.

The ADS-B thing is a legitimate issue, but we all have that to deal with. But only "out" is needed to meet the regulation on 01-01-20. There are more "all-in-one" transponder boxes appearing now (L-3, Appareo and Garmin) so a panel mount WAAS GPS is not as essential as it used to be for ADS-B compliance in a VFR only plane.

 

[weilke]

Sumping the tanks.

Never had to lie down to sump the tanks on a Cherokee. Cleaning the belly, yes you have to lie on a creeper for that. But that's no different from cleaning the belly of a Cessna.

 

[ircphoenix]

We are getting to the point where it is cheaper to buy another airplane with half-time engine(s) than it is to overhaul one. In my case I can buy an Aztec with good mid-time engines, swap them into my plane, sell the extra props, avionics and my old engine cores, part out the airframe and be way ahead of paying to overhaul two IO-540s.

Which is a shame. I know a *genius* auto mechanic that I know who could rebuild any car from the ground up, electronics included, who could rebuild a comparatively simple Lycoming engine in his sleep... but because it is an airplane part, it has to be more expensive. In fact, this dude has done some brilliant stuff keeping an RV-7 in the air. But certifieds are a completely different animal. Crazy sauce.

 

[Hank S]

Never had to lie down to sump the tanks on a Cherokee. Cleaning the belly, yes you have to lie on a creeper for that. But that's no different from cleaning the belly of a Cessna.

All I do to sump my tanks is kneel down and stretch a little. With practice, I don't even put my knee on the ground any more.

With a Cessna, you stretch up to sump the tanks, and try to not wham your forehead on the trailing edge when walking around. I am not a member if the "diamond forehead" group, but I know some!

I trained in a Cessna, but have never owned one.

 

[FloridaPilot]

What engine is more reliable a Lycoming 0-360 or a Contential IO-470? I know this is a general question but has anybody had experiences with these engines positive or negative? Thanks!

 

[FloridaPilot]

What do you folks think about the Beech Debonair series? I love Pipers but I'm thinking I'm going to get tired of the lack of speed. I don't want to have to buy a Piper and then sell right away for something a little quicker

 

[Brad Z]

Never had to lie down to sump the tanks on a Cherokee.

All I do to sump my tanks is kneel down and stretch a little. With practice, I don't even put my knee on the ground any more.

OK, kneel down, whatever. Either way you're rewarded with not having to drag out a ladder to fuel. Sorry, I didn't mean to derail the conversation with a high/low wing debate.

 

[MAKG1]

Why do you have to lie on the ground for preflight?

'Cause his tires and main struts are all flat?

Maybe he landed gear up?

A knee on the ground is usually as much as I need to sump, untie, inspect the tires, and inspect the pitot tube.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Most think the Lycoming 0360s are the most reliable engine there is. The 320's too, usually. Continentals tend to need cylinders along the way. Lycoming cylinders tend last to rebuild. A 4 cyl will be less to rebuild than a 6 cyl.

 

[Joegoersch]

I had an Archer for many years. Solid plane. Would meet your mission. Easy to fly and forgiving. Parts not a problem. Same with a Cessna 172. The fuel pump on the 172 will never fail. The 172 is easier to get into. The oleo-hydrolic suspension of the Archer will occasionally go flat on you (not a big deal) esp when it gets cold. Better visibility from the Archer. Any mechanic should be able to work on a Piper or an Archer.

 

[weilke]

What do you folks think about the Beech Debonair series? I love Pipers but I'm thinking I'm going to get tired of the lack of speed. I don't want to have to buy a Piper and then sell right away for something a little quicker

Great plane. That or a v-tail. Just be aware that compared with a 4-cylinder fixed gear lycoming you are going to spend more on maintenance. Of course you will read here testimonials that their bonanza cost them nothing iin maintenance and uses no fuel at all, but that's just the enthusiasm and dumb luck speaking. You have gear motors, flap motors, gear transmission, flap actuators and lots of bushings in the gear that may require attention. Also, you tend to have better instruments that cost more money to overhaul when they fail. Also, you have two extra cylinders that can require attention and for some reason conti seems to need more of that than lyco.
What you get is undoubtedly a better travel plane. You'll be able to reach all of FL within 2hrs.

 

[bflynn]

Now I did say no retracts and that is because I'm worried that maintenance will get out of hand but I have seen some Mooney's that fit the profile perfectly. It is probably wise to get it checked yearly but how expensive is the overall cost to maintain retracts?

Get an early Mooney (before M20-G I think?) and the manual gear is nearly bullet proof. No motors, just a bar handle between the seats to pull up and lower the gear, very low maintenance and very reliable. You should still be well under 75k, faster and therefore better looking.

But I'd second the Piper. The difference between a Warrior II, Archer and Cherokee 180 are so minor, get the one that you like. There's not a lot of difference in speed but a pretty big difference in prices.

 

[EminiTrader]

Sumping the tanks.

Never lay on the ground checking fuel in a Cirrus...

 

[paflyer]

Sumping the tanks.

Interesting technique. I just bend a knee and reach under with the GATTS jar.

 

[Hank S]

Get an early Mooney (before M20-G I think?) and the manual gear is nearly bullet proof. No motors, just a bar handle between the seats to pull up and lower the gear, very low maintenance and very reliable. You should still be well under 75k, faster and therefore better looking.

But I'd second the Piper. The difference between a Warrior II, Archer and Cherokee 180 are so minor, get the one that you like. There's not a lot of difference in speed but a pretty big difference in prices.

Mooney gear went all electric in 1969, which would be all models before the J. Before 69, electric was an option. My C is electric. No maintenance required on the electric motor. Flaps were hydraulic, but also went electric in 69. There are no oleos to go flat. Other than flaps on some planes, there are no hydraulics, no "gear transmissions," or other stuff. Mooneys are simple machines; models up through D, and the G, have O-360 engines, strong and also simple. I get 140 knots on 9 gph, with 690 lbs payload with full fuel.

Same engine as a Cherokee 180, much more speed for traveling, but will also slow down and fly with Cherokees and Skyhawks on even less fuel. At 140 knots, I'm almost 30% faster than a 172 on 10-15% less fuel for a given trip. Just something to think about. Mooney B, C and D models without GPS are often available starting around $25-30K.

 

[asicer]

Most think the Lycoming 0360s are the most reliable engine there is.

Yes and no. The IO360-L2A (180hp, parallel valve, fixed pitch prop hub) is considered super reliable. The IO360-A1A (200hp, angled valve, constant speed prop hub) not as reliable.

 

[GRG55]

What do you folks think about the Beech Debonair series? I love Pipers but I'm thinking I'm going to get tired of the lack of speed. I don't want to have to buy a Piper and then sell right away for something a little quicker

A Debonair is a early model "straight tail" Beechcraft Bonanza. NIce airplanes, just like the older V-tails, but they are quite a different thing to own and maintain compared to most Piper Cherokees. Right now you are all over the map, and have strayed quite far from the criteria you laid out at the beginning of this thread. Maybe worth thinking through what your criteria really are with more specific detail and clarity for yourself.

And also working out what your maintenance budget is. Running a 250 hp to 285 hp six cylinder engine in a Bonanza (regardless of the tail configuration) is not the same as an O-360 in a Cherokee 180 or Archer. Maintaining the retractable gear on a Bonanza is not the same as the fixed gear on a Cherokee 235 or Dakota. A higher performance, complex airplane not only demands you devote more funds to maintain, but also demands more of you to stay proficient in it as there are more systems to deal with and everything happens more quickly.

 

[hindsight2020]

Yes and no. The IO360-L2A (180hp, parallel valve, fixed pitch prop hub) is considered super reliable. The IO360-A1A (200hp, angled valve, constant speed prop hub) not as reliable.

Meh, they're cheaper because of the angle valve cylinders being twice the price of the parallel, but otherwise just as reliable ime with lycos. Driving a io-360-C1C on the arrow ii for years and haven't had to pull one yet. Whatever differential in durability between the angle vale and parallel is inconsequential when compared to any conti engine as an alternative. As long as you stay NA, the 360/320 lycos are the stuff I'd take over water at night . Things are bulletproof and stone cold simple. idle-WOT binary ops all day. I'd definitively suggest a 360/320 variant lyco as a first time owner engine, as a blanket endorsement.

 

[FloridaPilot]

A Debonair is a early model "straight tail" Beechcraft Bonanza. NIce airplanes, just like the older V-tails, but they are quite a different thing to own and maintain compared to most Piper Cherokees. Right now you are all over the map, and have strayed quite far from the criteria you laid out at the beginning of this thread. Maybe worth thinking through what your criteria really are with more specific detail and clarity for yourself.

And also working out what your maintenance budget is. Running a 250 hp to 285 hp six cylinder engine in a Bonanza (regardless of the tail configuration) is not the same as an O-360 in a Cherokee 180 or Archer. Maintaining the retractable gear on a Bonanza is not the same as the fixed gear on a Cherokee 235 or Dakota. A higher performance, complex airplane not only demands you devote more funds to maintain, but also demands more of you to stay proficient in it as there are more systems to deal with and everything happens more quickly.

Fair enough,

But my main objective stays the same, Wife and I want to travel with some bags to New York and back once or twice a year. If I can get there "faster" for around the same price or a little bit more why not?

 

[GRG55]

Fair enough,

But my main objective stays the same, Wife and I want to travel with some bags to New York and back once or twice a year. If I can get there "faster" for around the same price or a little bit more why not?

You keep missing the point several of us here are making. The all in cost of ownership of a Bonanza will NOT be "around the same price or a little bit more". If budget is not an issue by all means buy all the airplane you can that fits your mission. But don't buy so much airplane that it busts the budget keeping it in the air, and therefore ends up sitting on the ground.

 

[Theboys]

They always say to buy your last airplane first. My experience was starting out in slow planes. 172, Cherokee 140, Grumman traveler, tomahawk and 150. All but the first were years ago when I was in military. When I had time and money years later I bought a 172 and finished my pp. then of course wanted to go faster. Bought faster and faster planes. Now they are sending me invites to check out the eclipse! I do fair amount of travel and wouldn't think of flying a 172 on long trip. I have done plenty though. Now I take my fastest plane. I still like to putt around local in a 172. My point I guess, figure out what you really want your plane for, before you try to narrow down what you want to buy. Not the plane you want next month, but, the next ten years. You can't really come out buying a plane and put bunch of money in, only to want the shiny fast one sitting next to you on ramp.

 

[Theboys]

The deb is going to be much more fun to fly and much faster than most pipers. If you get a original low hp io470 you can burn auto gas. It's going to cost you same or less to fly per mile but your annuals and maintenance will be about double. That's not to say you will have to spend bunch of money total, just double what a Cherokee will cost. Get rides in everything you are interested in and then when you narrow it down start looking.

 

[GRG55]

They always say to buy your last airplane first...When I had time and money years later I bought a 172 ...

Don't we all wish we had the paychecks we do today when we bought our first airplane! I do, because I wouldn't have started out years ago with a well worn Cherokee 160

Conversely, how many here see wealthy folks comparatively new to aviation with more airplane than clearly they can handle proficiently. Out at my regional there's a proliferation of expensive aluminum, not all of it the hands of owners I would fly with.

 

[Theboys]

I started a trucking company years ago and was told if I couldn't buy new I sure couldn't afford to buy old. It didn't take me many years or repairs to figure that out. Every time I upgraded trucks I improved my bottom line. I think you are better off to buy something a little nicer even if you have to borrow rather than not have what you really wanted and still have to put money in it to keep it up and upgrade things. Makes much more sense to me if you have to put a 40g engine into a plane that's worth 150g rather one that's worth 30g. Another thing about that well worn Cherokee 160. I could buy those planes for 10g or so 25 years ago. Same plane today is 25 to 35g. That 10g bought quite a lot and probably was as good as a Ira in the bank.