Piper Arrow?

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JC150

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JC150
My mission has outgrown the capabilities of my Cessna 150, and i'm looking at upgrading. The mission as of now is 1,200 nm per day, crossing Lake Michigan and the Appalachian mountains, just myself. I've done tons of research over the past year on different aircraft and have browsed many online forums. I'm considering a piper arrow iii, piper arrow iv, and possibly a turbo arrow iii/iv now that I have the funding available.

I flew a Piper Arrow IV (turbo normalized) once, but was disappointed to see only 125 KTAS at 9,000 feet doing about 65% power and just shy of 11gph. My expectations were at least 135 knots and 9-10 gph from what I was reading on internet forums.

Does anyone here own a piper arrow that could offer some insight to common maintenance problems with the arrow? Are there any notorious issues with the arrow iii or iv? I read the T-tail on the arrow iv is bothersome for some operators, I didn't really notice a significant difference that would steer me away from considering the arrow iv. Are there any significant performance differences between the arrow iii or arrow iv? What are some conservative cruising speed and fuel burn numbers that you guys use?

I'm not sure if a turbo arrow would be right for me since I won't be flying in the rockies. Typical cruise altitude I use for this specific mission in my 150 is around 8-11,000; so a normally aspirated arrow should do the job.

I've seriously looked at the Mooney M20J, Cessna 182RG, and Bonanza V35, but from all my research, the arrow would be the best fit due to economic reasons. Thanks for any input!
 
JC150 said:
My mission has outgrown the capabilities of my Cessna 150, and i'm looking at upgrading. The mission as of now is 1,200 nm per day, crossing Lake Michigan and the Appalachian mountains, just myself. I've done tons of research over the past year on different aircraft and have browsed many online forums. I'm considering a piper arrow iii, piper arrow iv, and possibly a turbo arrow iii/iv now that I have the funding available.

I flew a Piper Arrow IV (turbo normalized) once, but was disappointed to see only 125 KTAS at 9,000 feet doing about 65% power and just shy of 11gph. My expectations were at least 135 knots and 9-10 gph from what I was reading on internet forums.

Does anyone here own a piper arrow that could offer some insight to common maintenance problems with the arrow? Are there any notorious issues with the arrow iii or iv? I read the T-tail on the arrow iv is bothersome for some operators, I didn't really notice a significant difference that would steer me away from considering the arrow iv. Are there any significant performance differences between the arrow iii or arrow iv? What are some conservative cruising speed and fuel burn numbers that you guys use?

I'm not sure if a turbo arrow would be right for me since I won't be flying in the rockies. Typical cruise altitude I use for this specific mission in my 150 is around 8-11,000; so a normally aspirated arrow should do the job.

I've seriously looked at the Mooney M20J, Cessna 182RG, and Bonanza V35, but from all my research, the arrow would be the best fit due to economic reasons. Thanks for any input!
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You may want to consider a Comanche 250 or 260. I know of one for sale in the Illinois area for $65,000. I looked at it but my partners want something newer.
 
1200 miles? Seriously? With fuel stops more than 14 hours in one day. Have you considered a Cessna SP 1 or similar?
 
I've done the trip several times in my 150, takes 13 hours (16 when you include all the fuel stops) which is why I need to upgrade
 
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Mooney would be as slow as I would consider. Arrows are fine aircraft, but not the fastest of the crop
 
My NA Arrow II does 140 KTAS at those altitudes at less than 9 gph. It has every speed mod I know of except the LoPresti cowl.
 
I would really love to hear the mission purpose and economics that drive this decision if you care to share it.

I could not imagine doing that even in a 200 knot airplane daily unless you mean once a month or something like that.

The reason turbos are important for high speed is that they maintain sea level power at high altitudes where air is thin and the drag is there by reduced and the same mass can go faster.

My Comanche is a 157 knots airplane at 8k' and with the turbo at 14k' I can get 187 knots on the same 250 hp engine and fuel burn. and 197 knots at 20,000.'

A turbo is great for your mission but I am unsure that a Turbo Arrow is the right bird as they are not likely to get more than 155 knots at altitude.
 
Thanks alfadog. Any issues getting it past 15,000 feet or up to the service ceiling? Any common Mx issues?
 
@ Tony, I wrote it wrong. 1,200 miles is what needs to be done in a day, and it's a total of 2400-2500nm round trip (per week). This is a once a week event.

My mission when I bought my 150 was to build as many hours as economically possible, so getting somewhere quick wasn't a priority. Now that I have the desired hours, the mission has become more time sensitive. The amount of fuel stops required for this mission in my 150 is silly, so I've been flying Delta recently which took about 8 hours when you include TSA wait times, layovers, etc. So, if the trip can be done in about 8 hours, I'd be happy with that.
 
JC150 said:
I've seriously looked at the Mooney M20J, Cessna 182RG, and Bonanza V35, but from all my research, the arrow would be the best fit due to economic reasons. Thanks for any input!
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Arrows are dogs, I've flown the Arrow I 180hp and the Arrow III with fuselage stretch, long range tanks and 200hp. The Arrow I would do about 135kt at full rental power and the Arrow III did 125kt at 25 squared.

If you can't afford a Mooney M20J, get a Mooney M20F. The F will still do 150 knots on ~10gph, it has a more logical top loading baggage door and a cabin door with a latch that doesn't suck. If you can't afford the F model, get a Mooney M20E which will be slightly faster than the F but the baggage compartment and rear footwells are each three inches shorter. The E model also has smaller gas tanks and a lower MTOW. If you can find a E or F model that already has the J windshield, cowl, 1 piece belly, wingtips, or instrument panel done, great!

If price is really a concern, just get an Archer 180hp and wheel pants. The Arrow is not worth the extra complexity or cost for the extra 5 knots it gives you. :D
 
The acquisition costs isn't my main concern, but rather the costs to maintain the aircraft and have parts available. My close friend owns a Mooney Missile that he's been trying to sell for over a year. My biggest concern is he talks about difficulty finding certain parts and it always seems to be in the Maintenance shop at least 2-3 times a month. I don't know the specifics, but he's always talking about the fuel tank leaking. He bought a Columbia 400 recently and told me he wouldn't recommend a mooney. Otherwise, I think the mooney would be the perfect choice!
 
Your friend likely had a a lemon, having taken care of mooneys and arrows, neither was really a problem
 
You should be able to buy a Comanche 180hp for about mid $20's or with GPS and autopilot just about $30k or less. It will do an honest 140_+ knots on 9.6 gph. They love to fly high and are probably IFR equipped.

Maintenance should be about the same as an Arrow but they should do a true 140-143 knots. I flew one with every speed mod and it consistently got 153 (we trued 175 knots with a 22 knot tailwind) knots over 13 hrs of flight on 3 days as I flew it across the country coast to coast.

Should cost about the same as a Cherokee 180 except you have to add for complex prop and landing gear.

Myself I would go for as fast an airplane as I could afford. You can get a Comanche 250 155knots or so starting in the $30k's and higher. You can use the hp to get you to higher altitudes and get better tail winds and then pull back and burn the same 8-10 gph of the 180hp Comanche. But you can also drag along 1300 lbs if need be or go light and faster/less fuel.

A turbo Comanche or Turbo J Model Mooney would do up to 197 knots depending on how high you are willing to fly but even at 11k' you will see 175 knots.
 
I don't really need to make the 1200nm journey quickly. Just within 8-9 hours and without making a hundred fuel stops if that makes sense. I'm ready to purchase, I just want to make sure I chose wisely. Anyone have experience with the 182RG? Does it really do 155 knots?
 
Single seat, long distance, quickly, screams E-AB to me.
 
JC150 said:
I don't really need to make the 1200nm journey quickly. Just within 8-9 hours and without making a hundred fuel stops if that makes sense. I'm ready to purchase, I just want to make sure I chose wisely. Anyone have experience with the 182RG? Does it really do 155 knots?
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My strait leg was doing 135true at 7500 on Saturday...
 
I agree with Duncan, if your friend will sell you his old bucket of bolts you might be able to spun some gold if buying it cheap enough.

You need a mechanic that works on type if possible, also one who is willing to deal with owner supplied parts and you can reseal the wet tanks yourself with a little bit of youtube watching and a accompany A&P willing to check it for you. This saves $10k just sealing the wet tanks.


Skylane81E said:
Your friend likely had a a lemon, having taken care of Mooney and arrows, neither was really a problem
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
I agree with Duncan, if your friend will sell you his old bucket of bolts you might be able to spun some gold if buying it cheap enough.

You need a mechanic that works on type if possible, also one who is willing to deal with owner supplied parts and you can reseal the wet tanks yourself with a little bit of youtube watching and a accompany A&P willing to check it for you. This saves $10k just sealing the wet tanks.
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Besides, the arrow tanks seal the exact same way...
 
The arrow I found online for less than 90k has a slightly lower acquisition cost over the mooney with an Aspen EFD, GNS530W and GNS430w with autopilot; whereas a similar priced mooney m20j would need a trip to the avionics shop. It's a turbo though, and I don't know if I really need it. I've read a slew of negative comments online about the arrow iv, but is it really that bad of a plane?
 
I'm a Cessna guy, never owned anything else, but if you fit comfortably in a Mooney, that may be the way to go.:D For a 2400 mile round trip on a weekly basis, you need as close to 200 knots as you can get!;)


JC150 said:
The acquisition costs isn't my main concern, but rather the costs to maintain the aircraft and have parts available. My close friend owns a Mooney Missile that he's been trying to sell for over a year. My biggest concern is he talks about difficulty finding certain parts and it always seems to be in the Maintenance shop at least 2-3 times a month. I don't know the specifics, but he's always talking about the fuel tank leaking. He bought a Columbia 400 recently and told me he wouldn't recommend a mooney. Otherwise, I think the mooney would be the perfect choice!
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Check on engine overhaul costs, I think the turbo Arrow is quite pricey!:mad2:
The airplane market is very efficient, the sell for what the market thinks they're worth. In other words it's cheaper than a Mooney for a reason, same as why Dodge trucks are cheaper than Fords and Chevys.:D

JC150 said:
The arrow I found online for less than 90k has a slightly lower acquisition cost over the mooney with an Aspen EFD, GNS530W and GNS430w with autopilot; whereas a similar priced mooney m20j would need a trip to the avionics shop. It's a turbo though, and I don't know if I really need it. I've read a slew of negative comments online about the arrow iv, but is it really that bad of a plane?
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JC150 said:
The arrow I found online for less than 90k has a slightly lower acquisition cost over the mooney with an Aspen EFD, GNS530W and GNS430w with autopilot; whereas a similar priced mooney m20j would need a trip to the avionics shop. It's a turbo though, and I don't know if I really need it. I've read a slew of negative comments online about the arrow iv, but is it really that bad of a plane?
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A guy on AOPA forums has a T-Arrow with a new firewall forward rebuild and he says his costs work out to about $175-200 per hour when gas was $3 per gallon. I suspect it is more like $225 per hour today. I do not believe the top speeds of 175knots as if you run them that hard they do not last long. They use a TIO360 continental that is not robust.
 
Across Lake Michigan through the Appalachians on a regular basis? It's not happening in an Arrow or Mooney or Bonanza if you have to be there every week. You'll need FIKI, weather radar and a ceiling of at least 25,000.
If you'd like to make that trip without any time constraints as to when you have to be there and back and not on a weekly schedule, then pick whatever flavor you like.
 
Didn't that AOPA CFI with a T-arrow spend $50k on his OH by a signature company and have troubles with that? Kareem??


N747JB said:
Check on engine overhaul costs, I think the turbo Arrow is quite pricey!:mad2:
The airplane market is very efficient, the sell for what the market thinks they're worth. In other words it's cheaper than a Mooney for a reason, same as why Dodge trucks are cheaper than Fords and Chevys.:D
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You might want to look at the Mooney M20 E or F. With speed mods they can approach the speed of a J model; without them, they are still a bit faster than an Arrow.

There is an article on the internet somewhere in which the author compares the Turbo Arrow with a N.A. M20J, you might find it informative.
 
JC150 said:
The acquisition costs isn't my main concern, but rather the costs to maintain the aircraft and have parts available. My close friend owns a Mooney Missile that he's been trying to sell for over a year. My biggest concern is he talks about difficulty finding certain parts and it always seems to be in the Maintenance shop at least 2-3 times a month. I don't know the specifics, but he's always talking about the fuel tank leaking. He bought a Columbia 400 recently and told me he wouldn't recommend a mooney. Otherwise, I think the mooney would be the perfect choice!
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I'm an ex-J owner. I think it's an excellent choice for you. Mine was very reliable. I think maybe your friend's problem was with the Missile conversion.
 
RichNY said:
Across Lake Michigan through the Appalachians on a regular basis? It's not happening in an Arrow or Mooney or Bonanza if you have to be there every week. You'll need FIKI, weather radar and a ceiling of at least 25,000.
If you'd like to make that trip without any time constraints as to when you have to be there and back and not on a weekly schedule, then pick whatever flavor you like.
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that's the key. Icing up north in the winter, thunderstorms down south in the summer.
 
I am amazed that you did a 2400nm round trip in a C150 once a week. WOW! Time wise that like flying to Australia once a week in a 747
 
Ken Ibold said:
I'm an ex-J owner. I think it's an excellent choice for you. Mine was very reliable. I think maybe your friend's problem was with the Missile conversion.
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I've got a lowly C model, and I haven't had a mooney specific issue in 3 years except the leaking tanks. With bladders, I don't think I'll have a problem in the near future.
 
I have a Piper Arrow II with speed mods that does 135KTAS at 9GPH. It's not faster than the Mooneys, but to suggest PA-28 airframes are as much a maintenance expense to seal tanks on as the mooney tanks is laughable. Anybody who has seen the Mooney wings opened up can understand how they're a mess compared to the lowly modular Piper tank and quickly put to bed the idea that they cost the same to reseal and/or last the same as the Piper tank between major seal jobs.

Mooney 20s are speedy, but they have an ergonomically fatiguing seating position and have expensive items (tank seal, gear pucks and airframe corrosion) compared to the PA-28 airframe, which includes not just the Arrow, but the Archer and Warrior as well. It is certainly the reason I bought my PA28R-200 over the Mooney 20F. The panel arrangement was certainly a lot better in the Pipers for identical vintage, which is another savings advantage for the Arrow.

Now, to your mission profile... the guy I bought the arrow from was doing exactly what you're attempting to do: crossing lakes and doing the back and forth from SE Michigan to the UP. He fully admitted that not having FIKI in the winters hampered his ability to do the trip with frequency for one third of the year. When I left back to Texas with the airplane he was talking about adding a second engine to his mission and looking at FIKI. I suspect if you really need to do the trip with frequency you'll hit his same concerns. Otherwise there's nothing wrong with an Arrow or vintage Mooney. I have my reasons to consider the Arrow a better value than the vintage M20s, but in the end they're the same plane as far as your mission is concerned.

Good luck
 
M20J sounds ideal for your mission. Parts are not a problem. Speed, economy, and a very stable IFR platform. For 90k you should be able to find a nicely equipped M20J, maybe not as nicely equipped as the Arrow you are looking at but that should tell you something!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
JC150 said:
Does anyone here own a piper arrow that could offer some insight to common maintenance problems with the arrow?
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I own an Arrow 2. Recurring problems are the landing gear (occasionally won't cycle down or up).
 
I have the Arrow III and have had no gear issues. There is a recurring AD to remove and check the side brace for cracks at 500 hr intervals. Reading through the logbook I do see where the hydraulic pump pack was replaced with a rebuilt unit twice in about a three month span. That probably points out more of an issue with the rebuilder than the Piper brand.

Curious as to what the posters gear issues were.

Someone mentioned engine rebuilds. I was quoted $36000 for a rebuild and R&R at Signature here in Cincinnati. Mine is normally aspirated.
 
Ken Ibold said:
I'm an ex-J owner. I think it's an excellent choice for you. Mine was very reliable. I think maybe your friend's problem was with the Missile conversion.
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Ditto, a bone stock 201 should be reliable, ours is.
 
JC150 said:
I don't really need to make the 1200nm journey quickly. Just within 8-9 hours and without making a hundred fuel stops if that makes sense. I'm ready to purchase, I just want to make sure I chose wisely. Anyone have experience with the 182RG? Does it really do 155 knots?
Click to expand...

A 201 would do your trip with one gas stop with at least an hour reserve on each leg.
 
Skylane81E said:
LongEZ:yes:
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Dynavibe was supposed to bring one of their GX2 balancers down Tuesday in a longEZ. They called and said it "smoked" the electrical system and didn't have a time frame when it would be back online!!! :confused: Didn't seem reliable! :rolleyes::lol:

Datadriver said:
I own an Arrow 2. Recurring problems are the landing gear (occasionally won't cycle down or up).
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Yea, thats a problem.


To the OP I think you will be happy with either the Mooney like many have suggested or the arrow. The turbo will give you better options. 182RG is not a bad choice either along with the Comanche.
 
Actually we know someone with a Commanche for sale 45K and they are closer to Mooney speed.
 
might look at a Beech Debonair
 
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