Piper Arrow III mx/insurance

[Jake Simpson]

Hello all,

Looking into purchasing an Arrow III or similar aircraft. My question is how much more is the complex aspect going to cost me in annual inspection/annual mx expenses? How much is a typical annual inspection going to cost me? I'm also curious about insurance. I'm a private pilot with IFR and 250 hours, 120ish in PA28, and only around 5 in Arrows. I do have my complex endorsement. That being said, what would insurance costs look like?

Thanks!

 

[Jake Simpson]

Also: along with the insurance, would it be accurate to expect them requiring me to do 5-10 hours dual in the plane with a CFI before I can carry passengers?

 

[mandm]

When I called around for insurance for an Arrow, they were looking for 10 hours dual before being able to fly solo, with a minimum number of take offs and landings. I cannot remember but I would say 10-20 hours dual plus 20-30 takeoffs and landings depending upon the insurance company.

You can set an agreed upon hull value of the Arrow and that will determine the insurance premium. I believe I did a quote with 40k hull value with a premium of $1700/yr and a quote with 80k hull value with a premium of $2700/yr (two separate Arrows). My total flying time was about half that of yours when I requested the quotes, so I think you’ll have a slightly cheaper rate but I don’t think it will drop again until you have a commercial rating and more time in type.

Maintenance wise, for Arrows the landing gear I think is relatively straightforward (maybe add $1000/year for the annual), flaps are manual, the big costs to consider are both wing spars (especially if you are approaching 5000 factored hours - aka it was a trainer with total time >4000hrs). Of course with the Arrows these are old planes and there will be things that have to be done a certain way (think about how to hold the iPhone when the case blocked the signal long time ago), if you want things addressed then it quickly becomes expensive. Spend money on a thorough prebuy, check the wing spars if hours are high (don’t accept a discount to check it yourself, make sure it’s good to go to avoid a 40k+ mistake). Also how many hours does the engine have, has it been flown regularly, parked in a hangar or outside, nearby the sea?

 

[Jake Simpson]

Thanks for the great information. How much would a "thorough" prebuy cost and where do you recommend finding a good A&P for the job? It has 5,315TT and 785SMOH on the IO360. Hangared in SC. I'll include the spec sheet here. From what I can tell the wing spar AD has not been complied with but maybe one of you guys can help me identify that.

 

[Bell206]

where do you recommend finding a good A&P for the job?

FYI: the first APIA you should be looking for is the one that will maintain your aircraft after you buy one. Once you have this person on deck get his input on how to handle your prebuys as he will be the one who will send you the bill for all the items missed by the prebuy mechanic. Remember airworthiness is 50% opinion. Good luck.

 

[Jake Simpson]

FYI: the first APIA you should be looking for is the one that will maintain your aircraft after you buy one. Once you have this person on deck get his input on how to handle your prebuys as he will be the one who will send you the bill for all the items missed by the prebuy mechanic. Remember airworthiness is 50% opinion. Good luck.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[mandm]

Thanks for the great information. How much would a "thorough" prebuy cost and where do you recommend finding a good A&P for the job? It has 5,315TT and 785SMOH on the IO360. Hangared in SC. I'll include the spec sheet here. From what I can tell the wing spar AD has not been complied with but maybe one of you guys can help me identify that.

Sounds exciting reading about it, do you have any photos to share? Are you content with the interior as is? How much asking?

It sounds like it has been flown and by individuals, I’ll check flightaware soon. You’d need to ask if the plane has any 100 hour inspections, basically if it’s privately owned and flown, you won’t have to check the wing spar, but your mechanic at the annual needs to determine if the AD is applicable, given the plane is over 5000hours and they just did the annual, you should be fine. But you still should be aware if the wing spar inspection will be required soon, and you can determine this by knowing how many 100 hour inspections it has had in the past. Kudos for complete logs!

For the prebuy, I spent $1000 on mine, well worth it. I would Google search SC airplane prebuy mechanics, and also post a thread online “Looking for prebuy mechanic near General Area”. Make sure it isn’t where the Seller is located to get an unbiased opinion.

 

[Jake Simpson]

Sounds exciting reading about it, do you have any photos to share? Are you content with the interior as is? How much asking?

It sounds like it has been flown and by individuals, I’ll check flightaware soon. You’d need to ask if the plane has any 100 hour inspections, basically if it’s privately owned and flown, you won’t have to check the wing spar, but your mechanic at the annual needs to determine if the AD is applicable, given the plane is over 5000hours and they just did the annual, you should be fine. But you still should be aware if the wing spar inspection will be required soon, and you can determine this by knowing how many 100 hour inspections it has had in the past. Kudos for complete logs!

For the prebuy, I spent $1000 on mine, well worth it. I would Google search SC airplane prebuy mechanics, and also post a thread online “Looking for prebuy mechanic near General Area”. Make sure it isn’t where the Seller is located to get an unbiased opinion.

Ok great, yeah interior isn't a big deal. Asking $98,700.

 

[mandm]

Checked flightaware and looks like the plane has been flown regularly over the previous 3 months. I saw the ad online, looks like a nice bird with decent equipment too.

Bell206 makes a good point about finding your local mechanic first and to get his opinion and have him do the prebuy. For me, time was an issue as I didn’t have a mechanic locally yet, and most mechanics nearby me were tied up with other projects, so I opted for a prebuy mechanic closer to the seller.

FYI: The plane you are looking at is a 1969 Piper Arrow, that is also known as Arrow I or the original Arrow. Some threads mention that the later Arrow year/models are slightly bigger, something to be aware of but I also have a 1969 Arrow and I am happy with it thus far.

If you plan to fly IFR, you’ll have a pitot static check coming up this summer. The check itself I believe is $600 but for mine, the seller had to spend some money on a new transponder and fixing a static leak, which another plane in the same shop was also having a static leak checked. I didn’t get the bill so I’m not sure how much each item cost, but I think it wasn’t cheap to fix a static leak and possibly a common issue.

I’m relatively newer to aviation too, so someone more knowledgeable will likely chime in.

 

[catmandu]

As a former ‘69 Arrow guy, that’s a nice one, and seems like good value in this new market we live in. High time doesn’t bother me as long as it was regularly flown and cared for, just consider and deal with the spar AD.

 

[JScarry]

Also: along with the insurance, would it be accurate to expect them requiring me to do 5-10 hours dual in the plane with a CFI before I can carry passengers?

I had 250 hours of Cessna 210 time and almost 300 hours of Cherokee time and when my brother bought his Arrow the insurance company still required 5 hours of dual and 5 hours solo before I could carry passengers.

 

[mandm]

I had 250 hours of Cessna 210 time and almost 300 hours of Cherokee time and when my brother bought his Arrow the insurance company still required 5 hours of dual and 5 hours solo before I could carry passengers.

Did you have any time in type and were you listed on the policy? I met the time in type requirements so I was good to go on day 1.

 

[JScarry]

I'm a named insured on the policy. I had an hour 25 years ago in an Arrow. The Turbo Arrow flies at the same speeds as a C210 an handles just like a Cherokee except it’s slipperier on landing. So I was surprised that they required the same hours from me as my brother who had barely any complex time and no recent time.