Piper Arrow full-stall landing - roll stability?

[alfadog]

Hi

I did my complex last year in an Arrow II with the owner of a flight school, 10,000+ hours and all that. He taught me to land the Arrow with power, 80 mph (full flaps), and minimum flare. When I bought my own Arrow II last August, I continued that.

This year I did 40 hours (so far) in a Luscombe to improve my stick and rudder and flew the Arrow very little. When I did (LSA Expo @ KSEF, Sun 'n Fun) my landings were much improved but I still landed the same way.

So I recently decided to use my improved skills and try to full-stall land the Arrow like a Cessna Besides discovering that the Arrow laughs at ground effect I discovered something that interested me more. The Arrow seems to be very unstable in roll in a slow round-out and full-stall flare. Surprisingly so and more unstable in roll than any other airplane I have landed - which is not a ton but some 20 different planes and maybe 8 models.

Anyone else have similar experience - or contrary experience (Arrow stable in roll under those circumstances)?

Thanks

 

[dmccormack]

I know all the TW guys talk about "full stall" landings, but a more precise description would be "as close to stall as possible while maintaining control."

You really don't want to stall because the nose would drop and that's no fun in a TW.

It's no different in a trike -- we want to arrive with as little energy possible consistent with A/C control -- so we begin the roundout, lose energy (speed), decrease stall speed (ground effect), and maintain the ever-increasing AoA until the mains touch.

 

[poadeleted20]

I have not found the Arrow to have any more roll control/stability problems during a power-off/minimum speed landing than any other PA28 -- and I never found any of those to be signficant or even noticable. In fact, if the plane really is unstable in roll at that point, it would not meet FAA certification requirements. I suspect that what you're experience is reduced control effectiveness due to the lower speed, not instability, and that just means you have to move your hands and feet more to obtain the same result. But the only way for me to be sure what's happening would be for me to hop in the right seat and observe in your plane.

 

[L.Adamson]

With my RV6A & constant speed prop............it's either landing... like an Arrow with some power, or a flare from a steeper angle of descent at the proper moment. Ground effect doesn't seem to exist. It won't float like a 172, and will just fall right through a flare if the airspeed is allowed to decay too high above the runway. As I remember, the Arrow was much the same. The C/S prop adds to the braking effect, and the plane is heavier than an Archer, although the airframe is about the same. The Arrows I flew, were the hershey bar wings.

L.Adamson

 

[zaitcev]

I fly a 1968 Arrow II often, but I didn't do a "full-stall" landing in a while. It's difficult to control the sink in a landing like that and usually it ends with a significant thump. So, I do the 100-90-80 thing now and keep a bit of power. But I do not remember any particular instability. The control travel is a problem for me, and I had to relocate my clipboard on the left knee for Arrow.

 

[alfadog]

With my RV6A & constant speed prop............it's either landing... like an Arrow with some power, or a flare from a steeper angle of descent at the proper moment. Ground effect doesn't seem to exist. It won't float like a 172, and will just fall right through a flare if the airspeed is allowed to decay too high above the runway. As I remember, the Arrow was much the same. The C/S prop adds to the braking effect, and the plane is heavier than an Archer, although the airframe is about the same. The Arrows I flew, were the hershey bar wings.

L.Adamson

Yes, that is how my Arrow flies. The power-off flare is a finesse maneuver and, prior to my tw work, I did not think my "finesse" was up to it. Now it is. I, too, have the chocolate bar wing and thought maybe the roll was a function of that wing at near-stall. Maybe not given what Ron's experience has been. Maybe there were just some thermals or wind eddies messing with me. I will try it again once I get the Arrow back from annual.

 

[dell30rb]

My pa-28 landings are - 65 kts over the fence with full flaps, kill the power completely in the roundout and flare till the stall horn begins to chirp. Always works well for me. One thing that helps so much with these airplanes is to put a little silicone lubricant on the yoke shaft frequently. There is a lot of contact area between the yoke shaft and the rubber bushing things. Any stickiness in the controls will result in a choppy flare and probably a crappy landing.

If i'm getting bounced around a lot in the flare by outside forces I pay less attention to actually getting the airspeed down to near stall and focus more on getting down in a decent attitude and 'somewhat slow' is okay.. mains first and no side drift or crab

Granted the warrior I fly has tapered wings. The idea though - don't actually stall the plane. Just come close enough to activate or almost activate the stall warning.

 

[alfadog]

I know all the TW guys talk about "full stall" landings, but a more precise description would be "as close to stall as possible while maintaining control."

You really don't want to stall because the nose would drop and that's no fun in a TW.

It's no different in a trike -- we want to arrive with as little energy possible consistent with A/C control -- so we begin the roundout, lose energy (speed), decrease stall speed (ground effect), and maintain the ever-increasing AoA until the mains touch.

Yes, that is more precise

In a Cessna, when I say full-stall, I just mean with the stall horn sounding just before the wheels touch. Obviously that is not a fully stalled condition.

In a TW (or any airplane for that matter), in landing flare, I think the airplane will drop to the tarmac well before you have to worry about the nose dropping and that has been my experience in my share of hard, dropped-in landings due to stalling high in any number of airplanes.

 

[wabower]

Comparing Piper hershey-bar and Cessna wings is probably not a valid exercise. One is designed to support the aircraft in flight, the other is designed to support the aircraft on the ground and provide the pilot a place to stand while he does the shimmy-dance necessary to get into the cockpit.:wink2:

Yes, that is how my Arrow flies. The power-off flare is a finesse maneuver and, prior to my tw work, I did not think my "finesse" was up to it. Now it is. I, too, have the chocolate bar wing and thought maybe the roll was a function of that wing at near-stall. Maybe not given what Ron's experience has been. Maybe there were just some thermals or wind eddies messing with me. I will try it again once I get the Arrow back from annual.

 

[dell30rb]

Comparing Piper hershey-bar and Cessna wings is probably not a valid exercise.

I like the warrior because its a versatile airplane, inexpensive to buy and operate, stable, decent performance and a good useful load... but i'll take the cessna's handling any day.

Piper flaps are a joke compared to the big Fowler's found on Cessna airplanes.

 

[Clark1961]

Hi

I did my complex last year in an Arrow II with the owner of a flight school, 10,000+ hours and all that. He taught me to land the Arrow with power, 80 mph (full flaps), and minimum flare. When I bought my own Arrow II last August, I continued that.
[snip]
Anyone else have similar experience - or contrary experience (Arrow stable in roll under those circumstances)?

Cherokees aren't known for any slow flight problems. They are nice trainers. They will develop a pretty good sink but you have to work at it to get the nose to drop in a stall and roll control isn't a problem at all when using the rudder. Aileron response is sluggish when slow and that may be a problem but you should be using the rudder anyway.

With that said, I consider 80 knots and minimum flare (assume you mean holding nose up while butt is sinking) is a horrible way to land. Yup, the struts let you do it but yer on the ground at flying speed and that is going to cause trouble in cross-winds and add to tire wear.

Use 1.3 Vso (actual Vso, not POH gross weight Vso) on final and slow to about 1.1 Vso over the fence. Use Doc Chein's butt sink to land it proper.
Oh, and use yer feet to fix any roll you may encounter on short final.

 

[alfadog]

Cherokees aren't known for any slow flight problems. They are nice trainers. They will develop a pretty good sink but you have to work at it to get the nose to drop in a stall and roll control isn't a problem at all when using the rudder. Aileron response is sluggish when slow and that may be a problem but you should be using the rudder anyway.

With that said, I consider 80 knots and minimum flare (assume you mean holding nose up while butt is sinking) is a horrible way to land. Yup, the struts let you do it but yer on the ground at flying speed and that is going to cause trouble in cross-winds and add to tire wear.

Use 1.3 Vso (actual Vso, not POH gross weight Vso) on final and slow to about 1.1 Vso over the fence. Use Doc Chein's butt sink to land it proper.
Oh, and use yer feet to fix any roll you may encounter on short final.

80 mph, not knots and touches down sweet as you please.

 

[Henning]

I like the warrior because its a versatile airplane, inexpensive to buy and operate, stable, decent performance and a good useful load... but i'll take the cessna's handling any day.

Piper flaps are a joke compared to the big Fowler's found on Cessna airplanes.

Every time I've put in a Piper flap it has done its job well. You pull the handle all the way and you can add a lot of throttle to maintain 1.3 Vso and a glide slope represented by the VASI which gives you a more stabilzed airflow around the plane helping smooth out gusty conditions. Remember, when you are doing this you're on the back side of the power curve and rudder is primary for wing level. Always keep the ailerons level because they will act opposite at stall break.

You are much better off flying a small plane (I include my 310 in this) flying a wind modified 45* pattern. Just learn the damned skill and let gravity provide your energy.

 

[zaitcev]

With that said, I consider 80 knots and minimum flare (assume you mean holding nose up while butt is sinking) is a horrible way to land.

It's mph, like in any old Pipers. Jeezus you Cessna drivers and your knots.

 

[Henning]

With that said, I consider 80 knots and minimum flare (assume you mean holding nose up while butt is sinking) is a horrible way to land. Yup, the struts let you do it but yer on the ground at flying speed and that is going to cause trouble in cross-winds and add to tire wear.

Use 1.3 Vso (actual Vso, not POH gross weight Vso) on final and slow to about 1.1 Vso over the fence. Use Doc Chein's butt sink to land it proper.
Oh, and use yer feet to fix any roll you may encounter on short final.

It's up to pilot skill as to how long the but sink sink lasts. If the pilot has bled the extra energy to be 3" up when it happens and you're still rolling in trim; that's when it's slick. That's what electric trim buys one.

 

[andybean]

Yep 80 MPH is perf. On my 4th PA-28. I have owned one Hershey Bar version. The Hershey Bar Version drops like a rock. The Warrior wing is much easier to flare.

 

[Neal Howard]

80 mph, not knots and touches down sweet as you please.

This.
80 mph seems to be the magic number coming over the fence and into the flare with power back to idle. Any slower and you'll fall thru the flare with a grand kerplunk, any faster and you'll float too far. You can also come in slower (70-75) but then you must carry enough power to almost "hang off the prop" and can make some wonderfully short landings that way, but this requires careful modulation of both the throttle and the yoke to get a smooth short landing out of it. And it your engine quits while dragging it in slow with power, you'll definitely have a bad day.

I owned and flew a PA28 for ten years and 900 hours. Mine also had Hoerner wingtips on it that made a huge difference in aileron effectiveness at slow airspeeds, over stock factory rounded wingtips. My friend's PA28 with stock rounded wingtips was a wallowing pig at 80 mph or slower.

 

[Clark1961]

80 mph, not knots and touches down sweet as you please.

The struts let you do that...

 

[Clark1961]

It's mph, like in any old Pipers. Jeezus you Cessna drivers and your knots.

Pete - I drive a Piper...

 

[dell30rb]

Every time I've put in a Piper flap it has done its job well. ...

Remember, when you are doing this you're on the back side of the power curve and rudder is primary for wing level. Always keep the ailerons level because they will act opposite at stall break.

I don't think you're on the backside of the power curve when doing a normal approach at 70kts or whatever. At 50 kts and flaring while feeling for the ground, yes if that's what you meant. I don't keep my ailerons level then either if there is a crosswind present. Also, the tapered wing planes stall at the wing root first and they don't generally give a good stall break. The ailerons stay effective because the plane is hard to fully stall along the length of the entire wing. The OP is talking about the hershey bar wings which I believe do not keep much aileron effectiveness into the stall.. but that does not keep you from cross controlling all the way down to touchdown in an xwind

What is a wind modified 45 degree pattern.

Piper flaps work, they just don't feel like they're working as hard as fowler flaps do.

 

[Henning]

Yep 80 MPH is perf. On my 4th PA-28. I have owned one Hershey Bar version. The Hershey Bar Version drops like a rock. The Warrior wing is much easier to flare.

RIGHT!!! 80 MPH, not Knots. Try 72kts for starters and go down from there.

 

[Henning]

I don't think you're on the backside of the power curve when doing a normal approach at 70kts or whatever. At 50 kts and flaring while feeling for the ground, yes. I don't keep my ailerons level then either if there is a crosswind present. Also, the tapered wing planes stall at the wing root first and they don't generally give a good stall break. Meaning the ailerons stay effective because the plane is hard to fully stall.

What is a wind modified 45 degree pattern.

Piper flaps work, they just don't feel like they're working as hard as fowler flaps do.

Tell me, what 1.? Vso are you at 70 kts in your PA 28? Do you fly a taper wing or Hershey Bar? Oh, the difference is when you quit feeling for the ground and know where that is, and that's typically 100hrs in type. That's why you get basement insurance rates for that regardless TT.

 

[dell30rb]

Tell me, what 1.? Vso are you at 70 kts in your PA 28? Do you fly a taper wing or Hershey Bar?

70kts is well above 1.3 but i slow to between 60 and 65 on short final which is much closer. Any more than that and it floats way too much. If I am flying an approach long enough to use VASI I want to get it over with, 70kts at least and only 2 notches flaps

taper wing, I edited my post to reflect that

 

[dell30rb]

Tell me, what 1.? Vso are you at 70 kts in your PA 28? Do you fly a taper wing or Hershey Bar? Oh, the difference is when you quit feeling for the ground and know where that is, and that's typically 100hrs in type. That's why you get basement insurance rates for that regardless TT.

IDK, I have well over 100hrs in the 152 and the insurance nearly doubled when I was added to the policy! I should have bought renters and flown under his open pilot clause but this is the way he wanted to do it. Owner had 900 something hrs and an instrument rating, my rate was calculated at 180TT and an instrument rating.

 

[alfadog]

The struts let you do that...

Huh? As opposed to ...?

 

[alfadog]

I don't think you're on the backside of the power curve when doing a normal approach at 70kts or whatever. At 50 kts and flaring while feeling for the ground, yes if that's what you meant. I don't keep my ailerons level then either if there is a crosswind present. Also, the tapered wing planes stall at the wing root first and they don't generally give a good stall break. The ailerons stay effective because the plane is hard to fully stall along the length of the entire wing. The OP is talking about the hershey bar wings which I believe do not keep much aileron effectiveness into the stall.. but that does not keep you from cross controlling all the way down to touchdown in an xwind

What is a wind modified 45 degree pattern.

Piper flaps work, they just don't feel like they're working as hard as fowler flaps do.

80 mph, full flaps, 16" MAP. Front side.

 

[dell30rb]

Huh? As opposed to ...?

A rough landing. The oleo struts provide about 8-9" (just a guess) of dampened travel. Other gear systems are spring only, no dampening. And while both systems are perfectly capable of absorbing hard impacts, the dampened struts make it less of an event.

 

[alfadog]

A rough landing. The oleo struts provide about 8-9" (just a guess) of dampened travel. Other gear systems are spring only, no dampening. And while both systems are perfectly capable of absorbing hard impacts, the dampened struts make it less of an event.

Oh. Well, I can attest that hard is hard in an Arrow, too

 

[Clark1961]

Huh? As opposed to ...?

As opposed to landing fast in a Skyhawk and just bouncing...

It seems much more difficult to bounce a Cherokee compared to bouncing a Skyhawk. I've bounced both so I do have just a little bit of experience to base that on.

 

[dell30rb]

I remember my checkout in the cherokee I flared a bit high and dropped it in. I was bracing for impact and didn't get near what I was expecting!

 

[alfadog]

As opposed to landing fast in a Skyhawk and just bouncing...

It seems much more difficult to bounce a Cherokee compared to bouncing a Skyhawk. I've bounced both so I do have just a little bit of experience to base that on.

I still like what this fellow said to my friend while discussing buying a share in the Luscombe. In reference to his 500 hours of tailwheel time as compared to my friend letting me learn in the Luscombe...

"I think I am about done bouncing little airplanes."

I like that. Not there yet myself but I see the light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[Clark1961]

I still like what this fellow said to my friend while discussing buying a share in the Luscombe. In reference to his 500 hours of tailwheel time as compared to my friend letting me learn in the Luscombe...

"I think I am about done bouncing little airplanes."

I like that. Not there yet myself but I see the light at the end of the tunnel.

One thing I've noticed is that if the wing is done flying, the aircraft generally won't bounce.

 

[denverpilot]

As opposed to landing fast in a Skyhawk and just bouncing...

It seems much more difficult to bounce a Cherokee compared to bouncing a Skyhawk. I've bounced both so I do have just a little bit of experience to base that on.

I promise. I can make a Skylane squish on, spring the gear, then squish the nose strut, and try to spring back up into the sky, and fail.

We'll need some stuff to load her up to gross and I can show you. I guarantee we won't bounce.

It'll feel just like your Cherokee except the G-forces smashing you down into your seat will be a little more extreme.

All I have to do is flare about two feet in the air. Helps if it's nighttime. Makes it feel sportier.

I don't even have to try hard to make that bad a landing! Sheesh. Picking' on us Cessna drivers.

Hahahahaha.

 

[Skylane81E]

I always have used 90mph, two clicks of flap and power as required for 500fpm down.

Take that to the threshold, then close the throttle and hit the numbers every time with with the stall light just coming on. I did one landing simulating a more confined approach and used full flaps, same rule works, just steeper and higher sink rate.

 

[Skylane81E]

I promise. I can make a Skylane squish on, spring the gear, then squish the nose strut, and try to spring back up into the sky, and fail.

We'll need some stuff to load her up to gross and I can show you. I guarantee we won't bounce.

It'll feel just like your Cherokee except the G-forces smashing you down into your seat will be a little more extreme.

All I have to do is flare about two feet in the air. Helps if it's nighttime. Makes it feel sportier.

I don't even have to try hard to make that bad a landing! Sheesh. Picking' on us Cessna drivers.

Hahahahaha.

Only Cessnas have "land-o-matic" gear!

 

[Clark1961]

I promise. I can make a Skylane squish on, spring the gear, then squish the nose strut, and try to spring back up into the sky, and fail.

We'll need some stuff to load her up to gross and I can show you. I guarantee we won't bounce.

It'll feel just like your Cherokee except the G-forces smashing you down into your seat will be a little more extreme.

All I have to do is flare about two feet in the air. Helps if it's nighttime. Makes it feel sportier.

I don't even have to try hard to make that bad a landing! Sheesh. Picking' on us Cessna drivers.

Hahahahaha.

Now, now. There is nothing like the "sprong" noise one can get from a 172's main gear when ya bounce it just right. A PA28 just won't do it no matter how hard ya try!

 

[Skylane81E]

Now, now. There is nothing like the "sprong" noise one can get from a 172's main gear when ya bounce it just right. A PA28 just won't do it no matter how hard ya try!

No but you can push them out of the top of the wing. That has to be a hard hit though, my hardest landing was in that arrow (don't retract the flaps in the flare unless you NEED to get down NOW! I did FWIW) no (further) damage to the plane.


And if you want smooth landings, trailing link all the way baby! Good golly I smashed that Dutchess into the runway, still only felt a satisfying plop.

 

[Clark1961]

No but you can push them out of the top of the wing. That has to be a hard hit though, my hardest landing was in that arrow (don't retract the flaps in the flare unless you NEED to get down NOW! I did FWIW) no (further) damage to the plane.

I managed to run out of fliying speed in the Dakota about 2 or 3 feet (or slightly higher) above the runway one dark and stormy night. Kept the nose up by using that big ole stab to maximum deflection...the aircraft has been re-used many times since then but I still don't think it was a great landing. Oh, and it didn't bounce.

 

[Skylane81E]

Yeah, I dont know how hard the landing had to be all I know is the plane had log book entry's for the repairs and dents on the upper wing skins where the struts contacted. I imagine that being an Arrow the retracts are not as stout as the standard fixed gear 28s though.

 

[Ghery]

Oh. Well, I can attest that hard is hard in an Arrow, too

I've had a few in the Arrow that I'm sure registered on nearby seismometers.

One thing I've noticed is that if the wing is done flying, the aircraft generally won't bounce.

And when the mains touch down on the Arrow the wing is done flying. Knock on wood, I've never bounced a landing in the Arrow.