Piper Arrow as First Plane

Warlock

Warlock

Pattern Altitude
PoA Supporter
Joined
Feb 28, 2013
Messages
1,737
Display Name
Display name:
Warlock
Arrow Owners and Pilots please comment on the PA-28r 180hp as a first small fixed wing. Any comments on the true performance as well. I feel the need to bypass basic aircraft. I would also be getting add on, in the aircraft and have limited fixed wing time.

It seems to be a good compromise for a low skilled pilot, economy, useful load(1000 pounds) and faster than the 172's and Cherokees I have looked at. Any AD's or maintenance issues that are a real stopper.

I'm sure this brain trust has an opinion.
 
Last edited:
Warlock said:
Arrow Owners and Pilots please comment on the PA-28r 180hp as a first small fixed wing. Any comments on the true performance as well. I feel the need to bypass basic aircraft. I would also be getting add on, in the aircraft and have limited fixed wing time.

It seems to be a good compromise for a low skilled pilot, economy, useful load(1000 pounds) and faster than the 172's and Cherokees I have looked at. Any AD's or maintenance issues that are a real stopper.

I sure this brain trust has several conflicting opinions.
Click to expand...

FTFY. :D
 
Warlock said:
Arrow Owners and Pilots please comment on the PA-28r 180hp as a first small fixed wing. Any comments on the true performance as well. I feel the need to bypass basic aircraft. I would also be getting add on, in the aircraft and have limited fixed wing time.

It seems to be a good compromise for a low skilled pilot, economy, useful load(1000 pounds) and faster than the 172's and Cherokees I have looked at. Any AD's or maintenance issues that are a real stopper.

I sure this brain trust has an opinion.
Click to expand...

I bought my Arrow as a fairly low-time pilot with maybe 15 hours of complex time. I think it a good choice as regards price, utility, and economy. Mine has a bunch of speed mods so cruises about 165 mph on 8.5 gph at +/-9000'. If you only have $40-50k or so to spend and can afford the slightly higher mx costs, I think it is a good choice, especially if you want to fly a complex airplane. I would recommend the 200 hp engine and, if you plan on carrying back seat pax, the Arrow II as it has 5" more legroom in the back.
 
Takeoff and climb performance is very underwhelming in the Arrow 180, the back seat is cramped, but it is a nice flying plane and good cruise. I was able to get book cruise speeds in a beat up rental, but was several hundred pounds below max gross. Can't comment on maintenance because I have not owned one myself, but I gather that it probably has the least expensive mx compared to other complex airplanes (e.g. Mooneys or Cessna RGs).
 
Since payload is no factor for me, I think I would rather want an M20C for a few extra knots. It's a more interesting airplane, too. Some can be found very cheap ($27k for reasonably unmolested example).

{Update in 2019: ow ow ow, this post didn't age well. Since 2013, I went through a whole pile of those $30k Mooneys, and every single one of them had a serious problem, sometimes not advertised. The most amusing case was one that was flooded in a hurricane and I only found out because I stumbled upon its photo on social media. In the end I dropped the idea of $27k Mooneys and bought a $48k Mooney.}
 
Last edited:
IT will not empty your bank, which is it's prime virtue. But I'd try to find a PA28R200. the 180 is somewhat....."genteely powered".

You can always throttle back.....
 
My first plane was a Turbo Arrow. Airplanes are expensive to buy, keep and sell. Get the plane you want. I agree you should try to find a PA28R 200 though.
 
Warlock said:
Arrow Owners and Pilots please comment on the PA-28r 180hp as a first small fixed wing. Any comments on the true performance as well.
Click to expand...
135 knots TAS on 10-11 gph, typically 600 lb cabin load with full fuel.

I feel the need to bypass basic aircraft.
Click to expand...
Why? Unless you need to build retractable time for some other reason (want to get a bigger/faster plane later, planning on going pro, etc), there are fixed gear aircraft that go as fast, carry as much or more, and cost the same or less to buy/own/operate.
 
arrows don't do anything well but they don't stink at anything either. You'll always find a buyer for it when you decide what you want in a few years. Trading airplanes is expensive but you don't learn how to be an owner except by owning, so best to get your feet wet somehow. However I'll echo Ron's comment that an arrow isn't that much better or faster than a simple cherokee 180, which is probably the ideal plane for a 1st time owner.
 
bbchien said:
Ron has refrained from suggestion a Grumman Tiger.......
Click to expand...
...or a Piper Dakota, or a Cessna 182, or a ___________ [fill in your choice of many things].

My point is that there are lots of choices out there which give you more bang for the buck than an Arrow unless the bang you need is a complex airplane for Commercial Pilot or CFI-Airplane, or retractable time for future requirements.
 
Ron Levy said:
...or a Piper Dakota, or a Cessna 182, or a ___________ [fill in your choice of many things].

My point is that there are lots of choices out there which give you more bang for the buck than an Arrow unless the bang you need is a complex airplane for Commercial Pilot or CFI-Airplane, or retractable time for future requirements.
Click to expand...

Mooney, if you don't have knees.
 
Ron Levy said:
...or a Piper Dakota, or a Cessna 182, or a ___________ [fill in your choice of many things].

My point is that there are lots of choices out there which give you more bang for the buck than an Arrow unless the bang you need is a complex airplane for Commercial Pilot or CFI-Airplane, or retractable time for future requirements.
Click to expand...

Yep, for example, in the real world my 182 is less than 5kts slower and at those speeds about 1 GPH thirstier, for that fairly minor trade off you don't have retractable gear, carry an extra 300 odd pounds, in a bigger fuselage with two doors...

As noted already, good plane that does nothing very well but nothing badly either.
 
No future requirement for complex , just found a good deal on a nice airplane. Has a little more room than a Grumman. Complex is still simple to me on the flying part and sort of like the wheels in the well.

It does not do anything super but seems to be docile and competent flyer. Easy transition to other complex singles if I want to upgrade and hits my 130knt cruise or higher that I want.

Is there something out there that's better? 50K price range to start...
 
Warlock said:
No future requirement for complex , just found a good deal on a nice airplane. Has a little more room than a Grumman. Complex is still simple to me on the flying part and sort of like the wheels in the well.

It does not do anything super but seems to be docile and competent flyer. Easy transition to other complex singles if I want to upgrade and hits my 130knt cruise or higher that I want.

Is there something out there that's better? 50K price range to start...
Click to expand...

Offer Jay 50k in cash for Atlas and negotiate from there
 
Warlock said:
No future requirement for complex , just found a good deal on a nice airplane. Has a little more room than a Grumman. Complex is still simple to me on the flying part and sort of like the wheels in the well.

It does not do anything super but seems to be docile and competent flyer. Easy transition to other complex singles if I want to upgrade and hits my 130knt cruise or higher that I want.

Is there something out there that's better? 50K price range to start...
Click to expand...

50k will buy a nice Cessna 177 RG

Pretty similar to the 200hp arrow in terms of speed and payload. Better in interior space and comfort. Given the choice I prefer the high wing due to the two big doors and the shade/protection provided from rain and sun.

50k is on the lower end but you could find a 182RG for that price. Way better payload and about 150 knots cruise.

50k for a 180hp Arrow is not a good deal IMO
 
This plane is not on the market yet, at around 35K...my budget is 50K. I also very aware of the true cost of ownership and have additional in reserve.
 
Skylane81E said:
Offer Jay 50k in cash for Atlas and negotiate from there
Click to expand...

Good point.. I think he has all the speed mods and it should cruise the same speed as an arrow with much improved climb and useful load.

Its a cherokee 235.
 
Sorry but I don't know Jay, but his airplane sure has a fan club?
 
If you're honestly a good pilot (land on the centerline, are a few steps ahead of the plane type) have over 100hrs or so and did you research and like the arrow, sure!

Ive flown arrows quite a bit and I think they are great planes.
 
One of my students bought one and did all his training in it. We are now working on his instrument rating. Like any aircraft, get a good prebuy. He didn't and has had about $10K in "surprises"....and some involving little green lights not lighting, which can make for exciting flights.
 
2000+ hrs. turbine/twin turbine time AH-1's and AH-64's, the flying's easy...Flying and Shooting was the part I always something I needed to practice.

Detailed pre-buy will happen. Just cant see a downside to haul for the most part two people 300knt miles or less and occasional 3rd and 4th small people.

Still is there another aircraft that does the same thing and is forgiving like a Hershey bar winged Piper.
 
Warlock said:
2000+ hrs. turbine/twin turbine time AH-1's and AH-64's, the flying's easy...Flying and Shooting was the part I always something I needed to practice.

Detailed pre-buy will happen. Just cant see a downside to haul for the most part two people 300knt miles or less and occasional 3rd and 4th small people.

Still is there another aircraft that does the same thing and is forgiving like a Hershey bar winged Piper.
Click to expand...


Over how many years? How much fixed wing time?

How about a commanchie? I find them simpler and they fly a little nicer too.
 
20 years...20 hours fixed.
 
Warlock said:
20 years...20 hours fixed.
Click to expand...

If you feel confident in these types of planes, that's all that really matters.

I'd really look at commanchies and also navions too, GREAT planes, good systems and they handle really well, better bang for the buck IMO
 
Nothing really wrong with a PA28R-180, but it's not really any more airplane than the plain old PA28-181.

Most 180hp Archers and Arrows have done hard time at flight schools, so take that into account.

The PA-28-235 that is for sale on this forum would have some potential advantages over the baby Arrow.
 
What's the typical trip distance for your use? Never mind, just saw your 300 mile number. Total block time for many of the little planes will be roughly equal, so there's no reason to spend money if you're going to arrive at the same place at the same time.

Not that you would want one, but my Cessna 180 will outperform the Arrow in every category and there's nothing better at MX time than to see a simple fixed-gear airplane sitting in the hangar with the engine cowling removed and some inspection panels open while knowing that nothing else requires inspection or potentially expensive repairs. It's not as fast as the many big retracs I've owned almost continuously for ~50 years, but simple is hard to beat.

Warlock said:
This plane is not on the market yet, at around 35K...my budget is 50K. I also very aware of the true cost of ownership and have additional in reserve.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Thev180 arrow is underpowered and can get you in trouble real fast on approach and landing.prefer the 200 ,had one and loved it.
 
Warlock said:
No future requirement for complex , just found a good deal on a nice airplane. Has a little more room than a Grumman.
Click to expand...
You need to do some more in-person, in-plane research if you believe that.

Complex is still simple to me on the flying part and sort of like the wheels in the well.
Click to expand...
Well, if you're willing to part with some performance and pay more money in the long run in order to get "wheels in the well," then go ahead.

It does not do anything super but seems to be docile and competent flyer. Easy transition to other complex singles if I want to upgrade and hits my 130knt cruise or higher that I want.
Click to expand...
So do several simple singles, and for less money or with more payload.

Is there something out there that's better? 50K price range to start...
Click to expand...
The Arrow you get for $50K may not be anything about which to write home, and several alternatives have been mentioned. But since you seem to have this uncontrollable desire for retractable gear, I wish you good luck.
 
Ron, any suggestions? My family had an AA-5 Traveler when I was young so I understand the G/A airframe. I am wrong on this? ( I cant log that time from the early 70's)

Can you point out the singles that have more payload, for less money, that do 130+ knots. Thats sort of why I am asking the question.

I have no loyalty to anything...

Not a flight school aircraft 3000 total hours and never been bounced....
 
Last edited:
Warlock said:
Ron, any suggestions? My family had an AA-5 Traveler when I was young so I understand the G/A airframe. I am wrong on this? ( I cant log that time from the early 70's)

Can you point out the singles that have more payload, for less money, that do 130+ knots. Thats sort of why I am asking the question.
Click to expand...
Grumman Tiger matches the payload and performance. Piper Dakota/235 Cherokee, too -- more payload than either Arrow or Tiger, about the same op cost as Arrow (bigger engine but no gear or c/s prop), but more operating cost than the Tiger to feed the bigger engine. 182 will probably cost about the same as a comparable Arrow and gives the same performance and op cost as the Dakota/235.
 
Get what you want first.
I bought a Cherokee 180, and it's a great plane. The transaction costs to move up later are significant, and the upgrade needs to be significant as well.

What I really want is a Tiger, but the transaction costs to gain 10-12 kts are prohibitive. Same with an Arrow.
In order for an upgrade to justify transaction costs, it'll have to 150kts or more, and that starts getting very expensive in purchase.
 
I've got just over 77 hours in a PA-28R-200. 1969 model. I have never taken anyone flying I like little enough to put in the back seat. No legroom. To me it is a two person airplane with plenty of cargo space. A reasonable load hauler. But, I can carry more in the cabin with full tanks in a 180 hp C-172.

If you haven't flown one, try it for a 3 hour flight before making an offer. For some reason 3 hours in the club's Arrow and my knees are shot. It's all I can do to crawl out of that airplane. Angle of the seat to the rudders? I don't know, but it is not my favorite XC machine. The 172 I took across the state of Washington today is much more comfortable for me. And the 182 is even better.

I haven't flown the 180 hp version of the Arrow, but I doubt I'd like 10% less power. Oh, and with the Hershey bar wing, that thing glides like a rock.

Just my observations. YMMV.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top