Piper Archer Checkout

azpilot

azpilot

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azpilot
Hi everyone,

The FBO where I was renting 172's from is going through some restructuring, and I will no longer be able to rent from them. This Friday I am getting checked out in a Piper Archer at a different FBO at the same airport. Can I get any pointers before hand? They told me to expect an hour of ground followed by an hour of flying.

One point, as I have mentioned in other posts, I was taught to go power to idle abeam the numbers on downwind, and then glide in for landing. I am expecting that they'll want me to do it differently at the new FBO. I plan on bringing that up with the instructor that does my checkout ahead of time.

Special thanks to wallboy who did provide some good pointers in a PM.

Right now I have:
53 hours in the 172
23.2 hours in a 150
3.5 hours in a Grumman AA-5
Very early on I did one flight each in a PA-28-161 and PA-28-140. I barely remember anything from those lessons. They were in 2013 and 2014 respectively.

-- edit --

I completed the checkout on 2/5 in the morning. Checkout my write-up on that experience here:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90117
 
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Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

Archers are not at all hard to fly. The main thing for you is that the sight picture won't be the same.

Also, the stall break can be real subtle compared to a 172.

And, REMEMBER TO SWITCH TANKS. the rule I use is that the fuel selector matches the clock minute hand. That is, :30-:00 on left tank, and :00-:30 on right tank. Never switch below 2000 AGL unless the tank you're on is empty, except on the ground prior to run-up. Do NOT switch right before takeoff, ever (the POH can be misread to instruct that, but it doesn't actually say it). Use the boost pump whenever switching tanks and during takeoff and landing. Unlike some Cessnas, it is not used for priming.

Overall, it's a somewhat easier plane to fly, though I prefer the Cessna for passenger egress and view of the ground.

In terms of taxiing and flying around the pattern. It will **** you off that you spent so much time in a Cessna. It is MUCH easier to taxi and to see in the pattern, except right below you.
 
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Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

The Archer has the tapered wing. It will give you a little loft on the first notch of flaps. The P28s like a little power over the fence, but not as much with the tapered wing vs the Hershey bar. You will get a bit more ground effect with the low wing vs the 172 you are used to. Other than that it flies about the same as a 172. They are real easy to fly and lots of fun.
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

There are a few threads in the archives about transitioning from C172's to the Piper Cherokee airframe. Archer's are included in that bunch.

As before, get to know the correct speeds for the different parts of the approach/pattern and fly by those.

You will notice getting into ground effect a little sooner. Might help a bit with your landings.

Johnson bar... learn it, know it, love it. Especially when using partial flaps on takeoff. It's possible to dump the flaps too quickly. And that will surprise you when you're used to the slow steady retract of the flaps on C172's.

And enjoy learning how to get out of the aircraft with grace and panache. Two doors made entry/exit simple. Now you need to perfect something akin to a PLF.
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

I land Archers and Warriors power off. They don't float more than 172s if on speed, but a little fast, and it will suck disproportionately.
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

And on the tank switching....

Start on fullest, taxi out on other one. Switch back and take off on fullest tank.

Look at the clock on the panel. If the minute hand is on the right side of the clock, fly on the right tank. If the minute hand is on the left side of the clock, fly on the left tank.

Keep track of usage. Land on the fullest tank.
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

AggieMike88 said:
Johnson bar... learn it, know it, love it. Especially when using partial flaps on takeoff. It's possible to dump the flaps too quickly. And that will surprise you when you're used to the slow steady retract of the flaps on C172's.
Click to expand...

This is actually a huge plus to me. I had a full electrical failure and landed with no flaps once (I'm not trying to claim that is difficult by the way). I already have a problem with being high and long, plus I was at a towered field... with no radio... on my first flight after my private checkride... I knew there was a reason my instructor drilled those emergency scenarios so much.

Luckily you don't need electrical power to slip, so I got down on the ground just fine. I like the idea of having fewer things that can break.
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

Don't forget to switch tanks. Other than that they all fly pretty much the same.
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

azpilot said:
Hi everyone,

The FBO where I was renting 172's from is going through some restructuring, and I will no longer be able to rent from them. This Friday I am getting checked out in a Piper Archer at a different FBO at the same airport. Can I get any pointers before hand? They told me to expect an hour of ground followed by an hour of flying.

One point, as I have mentioned in other posts, I was taught to go power to idle abeam the numbers on downwind, and then glide in for landing. I am expecting that they'll want me to do it differently at the new FBO. I plan on bringing that up with the instructor that does my checkout ahead of time.

Special thanks to wallboy who did provide some good pointers in a PM.

Right now I have:
53 hours in the 172
23.2 hours in a 150
3.5 hours in a Grumman AA-5
Very early on I did one flight each in a PA-28-161 and PA-28-140. I barely remember anything from those lessons. They were in 2013 and 2014 respectively.
Click to expand...

This illustrates the difference between procedure and technique. Procedures are found in the POH...my Warrior book says nothing about reducing the power to idle abeam the numbers and, having ferried PA-28s of all kinds back in the day, I have found that they all pretty much agree. You have learned ONE technique; the instructors who check you out will have their own techniques. These techniques are individual to the instructor...none of them is perfect and none of them is wrong. None are engraved in gold or sanctified by the FAA or the manufacturer. Try different techniques and stick with the one that feels best to you.

Please read my sig below.

Bob Gardner
 
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Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

Its an easy airplane to fly. Youll be fine.

Use some common sense.
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

bobmrg said:
This illustrates the difference between procedure and technique. Procedures are found in the POH...my Warrior book says nothing about reducing the power to idle abeam the numbers and, having ferried PA-28s of all kinds back in the day, I have found that they all pretty much agree. You have learned ONE technique; the instructors who check you out will have their own techniques. These techniques are individual to the instructor...none of them is perfect and none of them is wrong. None are engraved in gold or sanctified by the FAA or the manufacturer. Try different techniques and stick with the one that feels best to you.

Please read my sig below.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...
This x10000. Learn for yourself which way works best. I HATE when students say "I was taught" or "my instructor said." Look the information up for yourself. I always tell my students to double check me on everything and when I explain something I'll show them applicable FAA publications and pull out the FAR/AIM.
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

archer....great plane. a full hour of ground sounds way high, but what can u do. at your field do you pump your own gas? if so, I start the plane and taxi to the pumps on one tank, then after filling switch tanks and take off on that one. that way you've kind of proven both tanks are doin their thang.

you won't have to do the carb heat thing. that is, unless you need carb heat.

come in fast and u's gonna float, but I guess that's not really archer specific.

johnson bar.

sight picture.

don't try to get into the plane on the left side. oh wait, you won't need a ladder at the fuel pumps. I think that's about it.

enjoy joining the dark side.
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

jordane93 said:
This x10000. Learn for yourself which way works best. I HATE when students say "I was taught" or "my instructor said." Look the information up for yourself. I always tell my students to double check me on everything and when I explain something I'll show them applicable FAA publications and pull out the FAR/AIM.
Click to expand...

one reason why I actually enjoy checkouts is getting input from different instructors. I have learned to listen to what they say, leave out the "but I was taught...." and make my decision on what procedure to use once the checkout is complete. an example is when I got my complex endorsement, that instructor had me turn off the fuel pump as quick as possible. basically his procedure was gear up, flaps up, fuel pump off, landing lite off....and about that quickly too. I did it the way he wanted during training. my preference is to turn off the fuel pump once I reach TPA. just my way of doing it. so once we were done, I went back to doing it that way.
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

Don't forget to have the instructor sign the session off as a flight review. The flying portion should cover everything a flight review should cover, and you'll just need to add some review of Part 91 to fulfill all of the requirements of 61.56.
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

Watch your speed ,and it will land without the long float. Switching tanks ,is something you should instill in your mind from the start,the archer is not a glider.
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

azpilot said:
Hi everyone,

The FBO where I was renting 172's from is going through some restructuring, and I will no longer be able to rent from them. This Friday I am getting checked out in a Piper Archer at a different FBO at the same airport. Can I get any pointers before hand? They told me to expect an hour of ground followed by an hour of flying.

One point, as I have mentioned in other posts, I was taught to go power to idle abeam the numbers on downwind, and then glide in for landing. I am expecting that they'll want me to do it differently at the new FBO. I plan on bringing that up with the instructor that does my checkout ahead of time.

Special thanks to wallboy who did provide some good pointers in a PM.

Right now I have:
53 hours in the 172
23.2 hours in a 150
3.5 hours in a Grumman AA-5
Very early on I did one flight each in a PA-28-161 and PA-28-140. I barely remember anything from those lessons. They were in 2013 and 2014 respectively.
Click to expand...

If you can fly the AA-5 then you should have no trouble with the Archer.

They are close with the archer being a little heavier on the controls and a little less float when landing. But a bonus is you wont have to count or look down at the indicator when setting the flaps, its just a pull to the click on the lever keeping your eyes on landing.
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

AggieMike88 said:
Start on fullest, taxi out on other one. Switch back and take off on fullest tank.
Click to expand...

The first part is great -- you test both tanks.

But the last one can cause the engine to quit at a really bad time if something isn't right. No switching tanks after run up, until at 2000 AGL. It's OK to switch before run-up.
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

People keep mentioning switching tanks...

It's important, yes, but don't get too worried about it. To that end, if the opportunity presents itself, you should go up with a CFI and run a tank dry. Once you realize that the engine will come back almost immediately after switching to a good tank, you won't "worry" about it. You'll of course remember to switch tanks per procedure, but it's important to know what happens and how the plane reacts in the event you (a) forget or (b) want to run the tank dry to maximize range.
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

Cool thing about archers is that they have aileron trim. The bad part is that it takes 30 minutes to 1 hour to adjust. If there isn't an autopilot, remembering to switch the tanks will be easy because you will constantly have to correct the plane if you forget.

For me, I give a good amount of trim on short final right when I cut the power. Plane sets down smoothly. Not a whole lot different than a 172. It will be flatter but don't go in there thinking that. Just fly the plane of the prescribed numbers then put the nose slightly above the mains before you touch down.
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

MyassisDragon said:
If you can fly the AA-5 then you should have no trouble with the Archer.

They are close with the archer being a little heavier on the controls and a little less float when landing. But a bonus is you wont have to count or look down at the indicator when setting the flaps, its just a pull to the click on the lever keeping your eyes on landing.
Click to expand...

That.

A hour of ground sounds excessive.

Just know the systems, maybe get a copy/scan of the POH before your checkout.

On the flight all you need to do is show you're the master of the aircraft and that you'll be returning it in usable condition :yesnod:
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

bradg33 said:
People keep mentioning switching tanks...

It's important, yes, but don't get too worried about it. To that end, if the opportunity presents itself, you should go up with a CFI and run a tank dry. Once you realize that the engine will come back almost immediately after switching to a good tank, you won't "worry" about it. You'll of course remember to switch tanks per procedure, but it's important to know what happens and how the plane reacts in the event you (a) forget or (b) want to run the tank dry to maximize range.
Click to expand...

There is at least one guy around here who screwed that up:

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Pilot-20-who-landed-on-Highway-101-focused-on-6313964.php

One bit of inaccuracy in that article is that there was no way Reid Tower was open at 11PM.

I have access to that Archer, and I had a nice talk with the mechanic who inspected it. It landed with one tank empty and the other completely full. I had guessed that based on where the failure took place -- one full tank is almost enough for a round trip from Reid to Harris Ranch, but not quite. The pilot narrowly missed a forest of transmission lines near a large substation, that he couldn't possibly have seen at night. He claimed to have switched tanks without the engine restarting. And he probably could have glided to South County (E16) if he tried.

It can take a while (perhaps indefinitely) to restart if the tank is totally dry and you don't use the boost pump.
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

Brad Z said:
Don't forget to have the instructor sign the session off as a flight review. The flying portion should cover everything a flight review should cover, and you'll just need to add some review of Part 91 to fulfill all of the requirements of 61.56.
Click to expand...

+1 to this. Even if it isn't due, why not go ahead and reset the clock?
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

TheGolfPilot said:
Cool thing about archers is that they have aileron trim. The bad part is that it takes 30 minutes to 1 hour to adjust. If there isn't an autopilot, remembering to switch the tanks will be easy because you will constantly have to correct the plane if you forget.

For me, I give a good amount of trim on short final right when I cut the power. Plane sets down smoothly. Not a whole lot different than a 172. It will be flatter but don't go in there thinking that. Just fly the plane of the prescribed numbers then put the nose slightly above the mains before you touch down.
Click to expand...
I don't think all archers have aileron trim.
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

MAKG1 said:
There is at least one guy around here who screwed that up:

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Pilot-20-who-landed-on-Highway-101-focused-on-6313964.php

One bit of inaccuracy in that article is that there was no way Reid Tower was open at 11PM.

I have access to that Archer, and I had a nice talk with the mechanic who inspected it. It landed with one tank empty and the other completely full. I had guessed that based on where the failure took place -- one full tank is almost enough for a round trip from Reid to Harris Ranch, but not quite. The pilot narrowly missed a forest of transmission lines near a large substation, that he couldn't possibly have seen at night. He claimed to have switched tanks without the engine restarting. And he probably could have glided to South County (E16) if he tried.

It can take a while (perhaps indefinitely) to restart if the tank is totally dry and you don't use the boost pump.
Click to expand...

The certification rules actually require it to restart on its own, no boost pump, within something like 30 seconds (I'd have to look up the reg).
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

I trained in a Warrior II and have flown an Archer. They have some tendency to float a little once you get into ground affect. I usually cut power to idle, once I know the runway is made, on very short final.

For emergency reference if the engine stops the produce is basically the same as a 172 and looks like this.

1. Mixture rich
2. Fuel pump on
3. Carb heat
4. Switch tanks
5. Check magnetos

As for the carb heat thing. I trained in NJ in both summer and winter, and never needed it. Everyone I know that uses a 172 says you use it frequently.
 
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Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

jordane93 said:
I don't think all archers have aileron trim.
Click to expand...
I was referring to switching tanks as aileron trim. Want it to fall to the left a little more, run the right tank.

Read the whole paragraph I wrote and you'll get it. Context is everything
 
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Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

MyassisDragon said:
If you can fly the AA-5 then you should have no trouble with the Archer.
Click to expand...

It was only two lessons very early on prior to solo.

There have been a lot of great comments though. Thanks to everyone for chiming in.
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

James331 said:
A hour of ground sounds excessive.
Click to expand...

I think that is just what they schedule. I hope you are right and that it doesn't take that long.
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

bradg33 said:
The certification rules actually require it to restart on its own, no boost pump, within something like 30 seconds (I'd have to look up the reg).
Click to expand...

It seems that would be a long 30 seconds!!!!:hairraise::hairraise:
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

drotto said:
I trained in a Warrior II and have flown an Archer. They have some tendency to float a little once you get into ground affect. I usually cut power to idle, once I know the runway is made, on very short final.

For emergency reference if the engine stops the produce is basically the same as a 172 and looks like this.

1. Mixture rich
2. Fuel pump on
3. Carb heat
4. Switch tanks
5. Check magnetos

As for the carb heat thing. I trained in NJ in both summer and winter, and never needed it. Everyone I know that uses a 172 says you use it frequently.
Click to expand...

There aren't any 172s that have both a fuel pump and carb heat.

Except RGs but those aren't really 172s.

Injected 172s don't require any carb heat.

The Archer POH also instructs you to check the primer, cause if it's unlocked, it will flood the engine.
 
Re: Piper Arhcer Checkout

bradg33 said:
The certification rules actually require it to restart on its own, no boost pump, within something like 30 seconds (I'd have to look up the reg).
Click to expand...

azpilot said:
It seems that would be a long 30 seconds!!!!:hairraise::hairraise:
Click to expand...
Actually it's ten seconds:

FAR 23.955(e) Multiple fuel tanks. For reciprocating engines that are supplied with fuel from more than one tank, if engine power loss becomes apparent due to fuel depletion from the tank selected, it must be possible after switching to any full tank, in level flight, to obtain 75 percent maximum continuous power on that engine in not more than -
(1) 10 seconds for naturally aspirated single engine airplanes;
(2) 20 seconds for turbocharged single engine airplanes, provided that 75 percent maximum continuous naturally aspirated power is regained within 10 seconds; or
(3) 20 seconds for multiengine airplanes.​
 
If you're checking out at CAS you will not reduce the power to idle abeam the numbers. At least that's how I was taught there 4 years ago.

My "Archer" is in MPH, and I do 100 downwind, 90 base, 80 final. I try to fly fairly tight patterns and I teach them too (you'd feel like a real moron if you flew a giant pattern and had an engine failure and didn't make the runway cause you fly a 3 mile base/final)

I have found most pilots don't have many issues with the transition. Even lower time students and private pilots who did all the training in high wings. It's a different sight picture. Switching tanks seems to be the hardest thing to make them get. You can program a 430 to remind you. I also see no issue with setting a timer on ones phone or iPad for the switch. I need reminders too because I've been a Cessna driver for years until Archie came along.
 
I went from 172 to Warrior a few lessons before my solo. Then bought an Archer a few lessons later. The biggest things in the transition for me were:

1) The sight picture really is different. I was flaring way to high for the first few landings. I had to just fly it down the runway with a little power until it settled, to allow myself to 'learn' what it looked like just before touchdown.

2) RPM settings for descent from a 172 don't work in the Archer. The 172 was 1700rpm, and my Archer likes 1500rpm. Just find what works for your plane.

3) It does like a little power right up to the flare. Unless I'm going into a short runway, I have a touch of power all the way to touchdown, which makes for very smooth landings. (Just make sure you practice coming in with no power every so often, lest ye forget how.)
 
Rykymus said:
The sight picture really is different.
Click to expand...

I have seen several people say this now. Can anyone elaborate on what you all mean by that?

Is the site picture for straight and level flight different?

Are we talking about the sight pictures for landing? Short final?
 
azpilot said:
I have seen several people say this now. Can anyone elaborate on what you all mean by that?

Is the site picture for straight and level flight different?

Are we talking about the sight pictures for landing? Short final?
Click to expand...

since you're in a low wing now, everything is significantly cooler, including the sight picture.


it's as different as sitting in your 172 but with a seat cushion, or with the seat lowered all the way down.....it's just a little different. nothing you won't get used to after one or two landings.
 
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