Pilot wanted build time Ca to Fl adventure in my Cirrus

[Tom R]

I've got an awesome G2 full glass Cirrus SR 20.

I’m planning to fly from KSNA (my base) to KFXE some time in the next couple of weeks just for fun. I’ll be flying down thru the Caribbean with a friend for a few days before returning to FXE for the return trip home to SNA

If you want or know someone who wants to get some Glass PIC XC time for $90/hr

Should be approx 13-14 hrs over 2-3 days for the outbound sna to fxe leg

And 15-16 hrs for the return leg

Looking for someone who wants to build time on the way there and back or 2 different pilots.

I’m 35year old 1000+ hour pilot multi instrument rated and also an A&P I/A

My plane is in immaculate shape it’s a 2006 SR-20 fully loaded Avidyne glass cockpit, xm weather, traffic, taws, etc.

You’re responsible for you own lodging and food

You will be PIC and log all of the time flown as such, I’ll also be your safety pilot if you need to build instrument time.

Shoot me a text.

949-2O4-0411

Tom

 

[AggieMike88]

Interesting opportunity! Unfortunately not good timing for me.

 

[benyflyguy]

Slick looking plane!

 

[apr911]

Depending on when, I might be interested in one of the one-way journey’s either to FXE or to KSNA...

Willing to make a stop through KAVX to see their new runway?

Any experience or other requirements your looking for a pilot to meet?

 

[Jeff Oslick]

only 8 more years and the kids are out of the house...

 

[Shawn]

As soon as I can someone to ride shotgun in my truck down from NorCal and pay for my gas, food, and next oil change for the road trip I am in.

So you are claiming your direct flight expenses for this XC trip will be $180/hour?...otherwise you proposition is illegal my friend.

 

[Tom R]

I own a part 61 flight school and rent my cirrus for $180/hour making $90 pro rata and perfectly legal.

2 tentatives on the outbound legs.

Thanks for all the texts keep me em coming.

 

[unsafervguy]

I own a part 61 flight school and rent my cirrus for $180/hour making $90 pro rata and perfectly legal.

2 tentatives on the outbound legs.

Thanks for all the texts keep me em coming.

only if you can show receipts that you paid the flight school for the rental and only logged half the flight time. otherwise, you are not sharing cost in the eyes of the faa. if you are not paying rental to the flight school you can only share direct costs.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

only if you can show receipts that you paid the flight school for the rental and only logged half the flight time. otherwise, you are not sharing cost in the eyes of the faa. if you are not paying rental to the flight school you can only share direct costs.

How about just letting the individuals involved work out the details needed to keep things on the up-and-up. There is nothing in the OPs post indicating anything illegal is being proposed. But it's the internet, so we have to play the jump-to-conclusions game.

 

[jaymark6655]

only if you can show receipts that you paid the flight school for the rental and only logged half the flight time.

@unsafervguy
Why only log half the time? If I rent a Cessna at and a buddy and I go on a $100 burger run two hours away and he wants to share the cost, I am not going to only log 1 hour; especially since he isn't a pilot.

 

[unsafervguy]

@unsafervguy
Why only log half the time? If I rent a Cessna at and a buddy and I go on a $100 burger run two hours away and he wants to share the cost, I am not going to only log 1 hour; especially since he isn't a pilot.

i was assuming that they were splitting the time logged. (i dont want to get into the safety pilot thing) they cant both log PIC without getting in to that, but if he is logging more than 1/2 the PIC time, then the other pilot can only log the remaining time, and if the owner is charging more than 1/2 the costs the FAA considers that compensation. the reason that you can charge 1/2 to a non pilot and log all the time is that the way the regs are is that you cannot have a friend say, can you take me to xxx for lunch in your plane i will pay you for it. that would be illegal, however, you can split costs if you say, im going to fly up to xxx for lunch want to split the cost of the plane to come a long? fine line but that is the way it is written.

also, if there is no records that the 180 hr was paid to the flight school, then the FAA would have no problem showing that there was not 180hr direct operating cost to fly the airplane.

 

[BrianNC]

How about just letting the individuals involved work out the details needed to keep things on the up-and-up. There is nothing in the OPs post indicating anything illegal is being proposed. But it's the internet, so we have to play the jump-to-conclusions game.

Seriously. I knew it would devolve into this. Some people just can't resist.

 

[Bobanna]

Just take the money and log whatever you need (or think you can get away with).

Seriously, though there are rules and regulations, does anyone have information on an enforcement action pursuant to improper cost-sharing and such?

 

[benyflyguy]

 

[Crashnburn]

I don’t think anyone is trying to be difficult, this is just an ad targeted at low-time pilots that, with the details provided, is somewhat questionable with respect to compliance with the FARs.

Maybe it’s a great experience and maybe it’s in violation of the FARs. I will be the first to admit I don’t know which category this belongs in. I’m not going to report it to the FSDO or anything, but it seems that whoever takes this gentleman up on the offer should exercise some due diligence in assuring that they are getting what they pay for.

I have never and would never do something like this on either end. I’m happy to give someone a ride if we’re going to the same place and I don’t even mind letting people fly my plane, but I would not charge anyone for the experience or advertise it on a public forum. I respect that other people have the right to behave differently.

What is POA coming to? A reasonable voice calling for tolerance and moderation?

 

[Jeff Oslick]

I don’t think anyone is trying to be difficult, this is just an ad targeted at low-time pilots that, with the details provided, is somewhat questionable with respect to compliance with the FARs.

I don't see where he "targets" low time pilots. The OP is looking for a flying buddy to share expenses with on a fun flight. He isn't "holding out". As I hinted at in my first post, if I had more free time I'd seriously consider something like this. Cross country sharing expenses in a nice plane going to places I haven't been before. I'd probably want to fly locally first for an hour and have a beer with him so I knew we wouldn't drive each other nuts being in close quarters for a few days, other than that, sounds like a fun adventure.

Some of ya'll are reminding me of Frank Burns from MASH.

 

[BrianNC]

I don't see where he "targets" low time pilots. The OP is looking for a flying buddy to share expenses with on a fun flight. He isn't "holding out". As I hinted at in my first post, if I had more free time I'd seriously consider something like this. Cross country sharing expenses in a nice plane going to places I haven't been before. I'd probably want to fly locally first for an hour and have a beer with him so I knew we wouldn't drive each other nuts being in close quarters for a few days, other than that, sounds like a fun adventure.

Some of ya'll are reminding me of Frank Burns from MASH.

Bingo.

 

[Tantalum]

I will be the first to admit I don’t know which category this belongs in.

Then why say anything and muck up a well intentioned post...?

tolerance

?

All I see is someone offering pic time in their airplane for $90 an hour.. if that seems sketchy or dubious to you then don't participate. If someone else wants to take someone up on the offer for what could be a really cool trip then let that person carry that burden...

 

[apr911]

There's a lot of argument here that what he's doing doesn't comply with the FARs or comes dangerously close to violating them... I just dont see it.

According to the follow-up post, the OP is the plane's owner and is therefore free to set the rental rate at pretty much whatever he wants. There is no government regulation either by the FAA or otherwise that says a business operator has to make a profit when renting the plane. As far as being break even, the FAA still doesnt stipulate this is a requirement but since he's a pilot and will also be in the aircraft we'll assume that at least the cost of fuel needs to be covered, $90 covers 15gph at $6.00 and that's at 100% share so billing a pro-rata $90/$90 is enough to provide nearly 30 gallons per hour at $6.00 (which is somewhat on the higher side per gallon cost-wise and more fuel per hour than the plane would burn at full power/mixture).

A Cirrus should have a fairly low oil burn and oil isn't that expensive; even if the plane burned a full gallon of oil on the 12 hour journey, a gallon of 20W50 oil from aircraft spruce is just $21.50, that works out to less than $2/hour which means the average fuel bill would have to be just $0.15 cheaper than the $6.00 estimated above and that's still covering both fuel and oil at 100% without a pro-rata $90 paid by the OP.

Maintenance/Engine time is a nebulous expense that usually isn't well documented and besides that he's an A&P probably doing most maintenance work himself at a reduced parts and labor cost compared to what he'd charge for service if it weren't his plane. This transaction is between him as the A&P and him as the owner/operator whereas the rental is a transaction between him as the owner/operator and a prospective renter, as such one has no real/true bearing on the other. After all, when the local flight school/rental operation gets a plane back fresh from an overhaul, they dont charge the next person to rent it the cost of the overhaul or even an accurate per hour division since the per hour division would be an estimate of how many hours the plane will have before its next overhaul which may or may not be before or after TBO.

Other costs such as landing fees, tie-downs and other incidentals are exactly that, incidental and not necessarily considered "flight costs" either.

He also is also providing the plane himself and could therefore hire any pilot with a commercial rating to fly it for him. He can compensate the pilot in anyway he so chooses and is agreeable to the pilot.

There is also an argument that the $90/hour being billed could be seen as compensating him. He's not holding out as it sounds like he plans to make the trip whether he has a renter or not, which also of course raises the question of just who's costs are being offset and by what... Are his costs being reduced by the other pilot and therefore he is being compensated (in which case he also is a commercial pilot and CFI so he is free to be compensated as well within certain rules) or is the other pilot being compensated because he's receiving a reduced rate.

For all the FAA is concerned, he could pay for the full cost of the flight and other incidentals and pay the other pilot $1/hour (or nothing in the case of a PPL) and then charge $91/hour for his time as an instructor, netting out $90/hour all 100% legal.

Bottom line there are multiple ways in which the FAR's can be complied with fairly easily.

 

[ByrdmanFL]

Looks like a great opportunity and fun trip for the right person!

 

[apr911]

Where does it say he’s a commercial pilot and CFI? If that’s true and the plane complies with 100 hr inspection then he’s free to charge for his time. Your post is the only place I’ve seen that mentioned.

May have been an assumption on my part based on his statement that he "owns a part 61 flight school" and the fact that he has "1000+ hour pilot multi instrument rated and also an A&P I/A." The owner of the school doesnt necessarily have to be a Commercial rated or a CFI though so I guess its possible he's not... Still nearly everything else stated is valid whether he has his CPL/CFI or not.

As to the 100 hour inspection, I assume since he did state he rents this plane out as part of the part 61 flight school it does comply.

 

[Gerhardt]

Wait a minute, I recognize that ink. That's the bride of a Cirrus owner popular around here.


$90/hr for flight time, a bucket of soapy water and a sponge sounds like a bargain.

 

[dreyna14]

Man, if I didn't have a bunch of stuff already lined up with work, vacation at the end of June and my instrument checkride coming up in a week and a half, I would be on this like flies on s***. I would be game if you do any future trips.

 

[alfadog]

I had no idea how popular something like this could be. I’ve got a bunch of trips coming up this summer and I’m a mutiengine instrument rated pilot with a glass cockpit. If anyone wants to pay me $1000 and fly me to these places in my plane, you can log it as PIC XC/complex/high performance. Since I’m such a nice guy, I’ll even throw in a free night at the Motel 6. Hurry up, first come first served!

P.S. - I’m not a CFI so I can’t tech you how to fly my plane, but I can direct you to some excellent YouTube videos.

P.P.S. - My open pilot policy requires 500 hours, instrument rating, 250 complex and 20 in make&model so make sure you’re well insured since you’re PIC and my policy won’t cover you.

Can’t wait to hear from you!

Actually, I believe that you can remain legal PIC for insurance and regulatory purposes and the pilot flying will log the PIC. You, obviously will not log time unless doing the safety pilot thingy.

 

[unsafervguy]

My point for starting the whole thing is, the faa has spent a lot of time in court shutting down urber type start ups. I'm sure there are faa people that kill time in their office surfing the internet. Since he is advertising on the net this is low hanging fruit for an asi that wants to make it into something. I'm bat saying there is anything shady about it, but if your going to put it on the web, make sure you comply with all the faa rules when you do it.

 

[Ventucky Red]

Some of ya'll are reminding me of Frank Burns from MASH.

Can I get an amen on that?

 

[apr911]

I had no idea how popular something like this could be. I’ve got a bunch of trips coming up this summer and I’m a mutiengine instrument rated pilot with a glass cockpit. If anyone wants to pay me $1000 and fly me to these places in my plane, you can log it as PIC XC/complex/high performance. Since I’m such a nice guy, I’ll even throw in a free night at the Motel 6. Hurry up, first come first served!

P.S. - I’m not a CFI so I can’t tech you how to fly my plane, but I can direct you to some excellent YouTube videos.

P.P.S. - My open pilot policy requires 500 hours, instrument rating, 250 complex and 20 in make&model so make sure you’re well insured since you’re PIC and my policy won’t cover you.

Can’t wait to hear from you!

Your open pilot policy is probably past that point where many pilots are looking to do significant time building at their expense but rather are expecting to get paid.

As to bringing your own insurance, its your airplane, you should decide what sufficient insurance minimums look like. Also keep in mind many renter’s insurance policies expect the renter to be checked out by a CFI in the make/model before their coverage kicks in so you might need to offer to rent your plane outright for a checkout with a CFI. You also get into weird situations where you are in the plane and as the named insured the policy is going to default to assuming you are flying (the FAA probably would too) which goes back to you could probably remain PIC for regulatory/insurance purposes but cant log the time as PIC/SIC/Other since its a single pilot operation (except when acting as a safety pilot).

Beyond that, I would say it all depends on what type of plane you are offering to rent, what it is equipped with, how discounted the per hour rate is and what your destinations are.

Plenty of people probably looking to build multi time so if you had a multi and insurance requirements could be met, you’d probably have lots of interested parties.

If you are offering a popular build or equipment (glass panel for example) that someone is looking to build hours in perhaps for their own insurance purposes prior to purchasing one of their own, you’d probably have some fair interest.

If you have some interesting destinations in mind and offer unique experiences (full cross-countries, international flight, bravo airports, Grand Canyon, etc, just to name a few) then you’ll probably have some fair interest.

If you are offering a significantly discounted rate, you’ll have interest.

I’m sure there are people who might be interested in flying with you but the details (plane, equipment, time/distance and origin/destination) are generally an important consideration...

This CA-to-FL/FL-to-CA trip for example checks boxes in most of the categories I listed for example:
1) Cirrus time. Glass Time.
2) True cross country and though intermediate airports and stops havent been discussed here, I know from chatting with Tom that he said he'd be willing to add a stop out to KAVX with me to see their new runway which indicates to me he's probably ok with some deviations... Sedona adds only 20 NM to the "direct" flight from KSNA-KFXE and Grand Canyon adds 50 so the possibilities of getting in some cool airports and sites/sights are rather endless.
3) Its about a 35-45% discount on the rates I am currently paying to rent Cessna's and Piper's (both steam and glass panel and complex arrow's) and though there currently are no Cirrus's available to rent in my area, its more savings compared to what I have seen Cirrus's rent for.

Add to that its a fast plane so a long XC like this could be accomplished in 1 long day of flying (tradeoff of maximizing hours in a slower plane vs minimizing total expense and schedule concerns) and I can make it a one-way journey (again giving me the opportunity to fly across the country and do some bucket list flying without having to incur the time or expense of flying back); well sign me up...

So what are the details of your trips?