Pilot Time

[jmpoplin]

Does Night time count as Actual Instrument or Simulated Instrument time - or do you have to be in clouds/under the hood?

 

[AdamZ]

Night counts as either night VFR or Night IFR. You can see plenty at night. Night Does not in and of itself mean IFR. You could wear foggles at night and then it would be simulated night conditions.

 

[EdFred]

Night in and of itself does not count as either of those. There are situations where night VFR can actually be logged as actual instrument time, but you better damn well already be instrument rated and proficient if you are going to be out in that. Think NO stars, NO moonlight, NO ground reference, nothing.

 

[taters]

I know some folks that log night as actual over the desert...but they are desperate

 

[EdFred]

I know some folks that log night as actual over the desert...but they are desperate

I had about 5 miles (if that) vis over Lake Michigan last fall with an overcast above me. It was instrument conditions, worse than some actual IMC I've been in. Yeah, I logged it. Not because I was desperate, but because that's what it was.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Logging instrument time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

Pretty simple. If you cannot control the aircraft based on what's outside, and you're not wearing a view-limiting device, you can log actual instrument time. The Lake Michigan example is a good one - I gave a tour of downtown Chicago to a couple friends a few nights ago, and made the turn away from the city and towards the lake - Black meets black! But except for the wide-open spaces of the west, there are generally enough lights on the ground to figure out which way is up.

 

[EdFred]

Pretty simple. If you cannot control the aircraft based on what's outside, and you're not wearing a view-limiting device, you can log actual instrument time. The Lake Michigan example is a good one - I gave a tour of downtown Chicago to a couple friends a few nights ago, and made the turn away from the city and towards the lake - Black meets black! But except for the wide-open spaces of the west, there are generally enough lights on the ground to figure out which way is up.

Going out over Lake Michigan is also GREAT for hoodwork for primary students. I had mine put on the hood, and fly west. It was a bit hazy, and while we were over land he held S&L and heading well. Once we hit the shore line we started listing...he knew he was in trouble when I started laughing. He did ok though.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Night in and of itself does not count as either of those. There are situations where night VFR can actually be logged as actual instrument time, but you better damn well already be instrument rated and proficient if you are going to be out in that. Think NO stars, NO moonlight, NO ground reference, nothing.

What about instrument currency? If you are in a situation where you must fly by reference of the instruments only, doesn't that beg a requirement for an IFR clearance?

 

[dell30rb]

Correct me if i'm wrong but I believe the answer is no, because you could still be in excellent visibility and well clear of clouds.

The purpose of IFR clearance is to keep you away from other aircraft that you cannot see because you are either in the clouds, or in a situation where you have very reduced visibility.

If you're night VFR below an overcast with no lights on the ground, you'll be flying with no horizon. But you could still easily see other aircraft around you.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

What about instrument currency? If you are in a situation where you must fly by reference of the instruments only, doesn't that beg a requirement for an IFR clearance?

If you don't got the skills, you be screwed. But I see no need for an IFR clearance (Assuming appropriate visibilty, cloud clearance for VMC).

 

[Danos]

I know some folks that log night as actual over the desert...but they are desperate

I had about 5 miles (if that) vis over Lake Michigan last fall with an overcast above me. It was instrument conditions, worse than some actual IMC I've been in. Yeah, I logged it. Not because I was desperate, but because that's what it was.

Exactly! If JFK Jr. could speak from the grave he'd tell you otherwise.

 

[Sac Arrow]

If you don't got the skills, you be screwed. But I see no need for an IFR clearance (Assuming appropriate visibilty, cloud clearance for VMC).

I guess where I am struggling with this, is that if you have no outside reference (horizon, ground or airborne lights, moon, stars) isn't visibility zero? (How would you even judge visibility?) That would seem to be the only instance where you could credibly claim "actual instrument" conditions.

 

[ajstoner21]

I guess where I am struggling with this, is that if you have no outside reference (horizon, ground or airborne lights, moon, stars) isn't visibility zero? (How would you even judge visibility?) That would seem to be the only instance where you could credibly claim "actual instrument" conditions.

The requirement to fly on an IFR clearance is really dependent on weather only.

You can still have 10 miles visibility, and be perfectly clear of clouds, and be in "actual" as conditions described by Ed above.

You still have visibility, there's just nothing to see.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I guess where I am struggling with this, is that if you have no outside reference (horizon, ground or airborne lights, moon, stars) isn't visibility zero? (How would you even judge visibility?) That would seem to be the only instance where you could credibly claim "actual instrument" conditions.

Haze over water = absolutly no horizon at all - even if the visibility is several miles. I ended up crossing Lake Michigan once at just a few hundred feet to keep a good ground reference - there was plenty of visibility, but the water and haze just merged togeather to eliminate any sort of horizon. Down low was OK, because I could see the surface, but up any higher I would have been in trouble. (I didn't have the skills then, and I don't have them now.)

 

[Sac Arrow]

Haze over water = absolutly no horizon at all - even if the visibility is several miles. I ended up crossing Lake Michigan once at just a few hundred feet to keep a good ground reference - there was plenty of visibility, but the water and haze just merged togeather to eliminate any sort of horizon. Down low was OK, because I could see the surface, but up any higher I would have been in trouble. (I didn't have the skills then, and I don't have them now.)

Don't get me wrong - I'm not arguing you can't fly legally in conditions where you shouldn't be flying without instrument experience, I just found it odd you can log it as actual. If that's the case then so be it.

I've had the same thing happen to me, I was way up there in haze, still legal VFR, but my horizon disappeared and I had to revert to my scan to fly the airplane. If I wasn't fairly proficient I would have been in trouble.

 

[Maj Geezer]

Years ago just after I converted my helicopter IFR to fixed wing IFR ,I was headed west to Bowman field one late afternoon. It was a beautiful day. As I said goodbye and headed to the plane, our FBO Algan, quietly asked,"Did you file?" I said no it was reported good VFR. I took about 10 steps and turned around and filed. Algan is a great pilot and CFI with lots of experience. He doesn't say a lot and he never gets in others business. In other words, if he says something it is for a good reason. I filed and off I went. What I found was a late pm setting sun and haze and I was going right at it. You couldn't see didly, yet very "VFR" Thanks again Algan