Pilot/Owner Mods

Exocetid

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Exocetid
Am am the new owner of an old airplane. I am also a low-time pilot, so I don't have the years of experience about these things that others may have--hence my questions.

I think the previous owner did some things that I would like to undo. What I have noticed is that pilot/owners will say "I put a new radio in", which translates to "I had an avionics shop install a radio in my plane". I saw two pilot/owners replace an exhaust system on an engine in a guy's hangar, neither was an A&P. Was I supposed to report that? How did they "get away" with doing it? It is difficult to tell who does what unless you witness it.

So, let's say I pull my panel off, make some wiring changes and put it back. Who is to know I did this?

This is what I do not understand. I think the previous owner made electrical changes that were not logged in any way. What is to keep me from undoing those things. Is it "forbidden" for the pilot/owner to remove the instrument panel? Where is the line drawn when it comes to maintenance? Please don't quote the FAA reg as I have read it.

I am not trying to save money or tamper with my safety, but as an engineer, very little about my airplane is rocket science to me. The parts I do not understand or have the tools or patience to deal with I am happy to leave to others and pay them fairly for what they do.

Please PM if anonymity is desired.
 
The best thing you can do is work with a good A&P-IA who will supervise the work. The AIM list the specific maintenance items and general things you can do and sign off as a PP. Anything outside that should have some "supervision." I'm happy to pay for a couple or three hours of the IA's time to double check my work and help me stay legal on paperwork. I'm fairly sure the IA is happy not to be bothered with simple things like pulling an instrument, shipping it out for overhaul, and then sticking it back in the panel. I know for a fact he was happy to have me R&R the alternator and voltage regulator. Replacing the alternator on the TSIO-360-FB is not fun by any stretch of the imagination.

As for other folks working on their aircraft, well, I don't know the full details so I have nothing substantial to report to anybody. Maybe they had an A&P look it over and sign it off after the work was done and I didn't see that part.
 
Dakota Driver has given it good information. By the way welcome to Pilots of America!!!
 
Howdy, missile-dude!

First off, I cannot emphasize how important it is that you develop your own resources for airplane maintenance mentoring and assistance. There is almost certainly an A&P (probably more than one) in your immediate area who will, after getting to know you, be willing to supervise your work as may be reasonably required. I personally know of some who really don't like to get their mitts dirty (because they've had enough), and would just as soon supervise you (a reasonably motivated and skilled person) as some marginally-interested shop helper.

Let us know where you are - Texas is a big place! You might start your resource development right here, right now.

And welcome to PoA!
 
If you did not get caught doing it, and it never got logged it never happened.





until annual time when the A&P-IA catches it, if done properly they will never see it. If it is a modification, or different they they know should be, then we have a problem. there better be paper work (337) log entry or some thing.

Tom-D is a A&P-IA and does annuals
 
What Tom said - if it's never logged and never caught, it didn't happen. I know a pretty good number of people who just do work on their planes and don't care if it gets logged or not.

What I do (and would recommend you do) is find some local A&Ps who you can make friends with. After a bit of working alongside them and them seeing what you can do, they'll give you more free reign with your work and then inspect it before signing it off. More than likely they'll appreciate you being able to do your own work. After all, you're not competition, but you reduce that mechanic's workload and he'll still get paid something. What's not to like? I probably split work about 50/50 on my plane with the mechanics. For simple stuff, I'll generally do it all myself (unless I don't feel comfortable with it). For more major work like 100-hours and annuals, we generally get 4 of us together and knock it out quickly. On the 100-hours - you probably won't need to do them. I do them primarily because I put a several hundred hours per year on my plane (270 last year), and that helps me keep up on the little items that break along the way. Plus there are a lot of items that should be lubricated, etc. every 100 hours.

Welcome to aircraft ownership and PoA!

Disclaimer: Ted is an engineer and former automotive mechanic, not an A&P.
 
Thanks to all who responded to my post--this is a great resource!

It is now starting to come clear to me. Where I had confusion was from seeing the extremes. One side saying that you better not touch your AC or if you do you better have an A&P standing over you while you do it to the other extreme where guys are just doing whatever they please with no recording or review. Everyone, no matter how good they are, needs review if just to make sure that the forest for the trees phenomenon hasn't occurred.

My overall mission is to fly safe--period. That said, as an engineer I want to do it as cost efficient as possible, which is not the same as cheap, and also as an engineer I am not mystified by electricity, mechanics, fluidics, thermo, etc.. I am now at a stage in my life where time is money, but I get some free time here and there and I enjoy working with technology and "getting my hands dirty". I also am at that stage in my life where I understand the quid pro quo of capitalism.

I just had the ECI done on my Hartzell hub. It was $185 and all the mechanic did was run the probe of a signal generator/XY-o'scope over my hub after he pulled the spinner. Could I have done it? Heck yeah. Couple of issues. One, he had the instrument and those are expensive. Two, he was trained and certified to run the test. Three, he did it shortly after I taxied up to his business. Hey, he has family to support. Do I begrudge the fee? No, I completely understand. In fact, I got a bonus since we talked for 30 minutes about the whole process as well as propeller hubs (I had never seen one with the spinner off, let alone on my own plane) and the evil Hartzell empire.

Thanks again and great to be here.
 
Thanks to all who responded to my post--this is a great resource!

It is now starting to come clear to me. Where I had confusion was from seeing the extremes. One side saying that you better not touch your AC or if you do you better have an A&P standing over you while you do it to the other extreme where guys are just doing whatever they please with no recording or review. Everyone, no matter how good they are, needs review if just to make sure that the forest for the trees phenomenon hasn't occurred.

Well, a lot depends on if you care about the regulations.
If you do care, (and one could make the argument that you should) you can do anything that your A&P buddy will sign off on. My dad, myself and my brother did a major overhaul on the C-85 in his Cessna 120 that way. (Dad was a former army air corps crew chief, former auto dealership mechanic, and taught auto mechanics at high schools and a community college - none of us were strangers to wrenches)

If you don't care, you can do anything you think you can get away with. Not that I recommend that option.

My overall mission is to fly safe--period. That said, as an engineer I want to do it as cost efficient as possible, which is not the same as cheap, and also as an engineer I am not mystified by electricity, mechanics, fluidics, thermo, etc..

Nothing personal - but I know PHD electrical engineers that I wouldn't trust to fix a flashlight. I assume you don't fall into that catagory if you are planning on "owner assisted" maintainance.
 
And that happens a lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What, what happened? I didn't see anything. How'd that shiny new alternator get on there? :nono:

You will surely see extremes on either side. The middle ground of owner-assisted maintenance is probably where you're best off, especially if you have background as a mechanic. If you don't, then that may take longer and more instruction.
 
Why should you log what you do. ??

1. What happens when the AD comes out on the appliance?

2. What happens if the OEM equipment gets an AD, and you have upgraded, are you still going to comply with an AD that no longer applies?

3. What will happen when the annual comes around and the -IA sees something that has been replaced with no entry?

I tell my customers "no surprises at annual time" keep me in the loop, it is better to keep the paper work right from the start than try to unf--- it later.

I have my annuals scheduled pretty close together and don't want you to tie my hangar up 3-4 months trying to get FSDO to buy off on retro fitted 337s.

Want to surprise me at annual time? next year you will be surprising some body else. because If I can't trust you to keep me in the loop, I can't trust you to do any thing.
 
Nothing personal - but I know PHD electrical engineers that I wouldn't trust to fix a flashlight. I assume you don't fall into that catagory if you are planning on "owner assisted" maintainance.

None taken. Most of my contemporaries went from K through 12 directly to their PhD and then to their professorships. They couldn't wire up a radio if their lives depended on it. My dad taught vocational electronics and I built my first radio (a five TUBE superhet) at 10 years old.

Nothing personal, but I know some Captains that can't tell the difference between their a** and a hole in the ground :p
 
None taken. Most of my contemporaries went from K through 12 directly to their PhD and then to their professorships. They couldn't wire up a radio if their lives depended on it. My dad taught vocational electronics and I built my first radio (a five TUBE superhet) at 10 years old.

Nothing personal, but I know some Captains that can't tell the difference between their a** and a hole in the ground :p

Hey! I know that guy too!!!
 
'66 Mooney M20E Super 21

That's a good plane to do some owner-assisted work on. If it's like the M20F I used to fly, it's got about 5,000 phillips-head screws that hold the belly pans on, and you need to remove all of those at annual and to get at various components (like the landing gear motor if you have electric landing gear).
 
The best thing you can do is work with a good A&P-IA who will supervise the work. The AIM list the specific maintenance items and general things you can do and sign off as a PP. Anything outside that should have some "supervision." I'm happy to pay for a couple or three hours of the IA's time to double check my work and help me stay legal on paperwork. I'm fairly sure the IA is happy not to be bothered with simple things like pulling an instrument, shipping it out for overhaul, and then sticking it back in the panel. I know for a fact he was happy to have me R&R the alternator and voltage regulator. Replacing the alternator on the TSIO-360-FB is not fun by any stretch of the imagination.

As for other folks working on their aircraft, well, I don't know the full details so I have nothing substantial to report to anybody. Maybe they had an A&P look it over and sign it off after the work was done and I didn't see that part.

That is some good advise Clark,

The year before last I had my plane cowling off and was replacing the starter. There was no A&P around me nor am I an A&P. Should I have been reported?

Well......the rest of the story.

I was working under the direction of an A&P who was three hangars away and he was stopping by and checking my work and giving me directions. He would later inspect and sign off on the work. But if someone was just casually passing by they may have thought I was doing a rouge repair job.
 
Sorry, there ain't nothing super about a mooney. :p
 
And that happens a lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!

After I bought my plane I started going through the logs.
I had a loran in the panel that was never logged, how did that get by all those annuals for all those years? Who checks for these things?
I had it yanked out, but since it was "never there" the AP logged it coming out but no weight change on the W/B.???????
I guess because it was never there it didn't weigh anything,not added so not subtracted.
Makes you wonder what other things were not recorded, like the bubblegum like patch(bondo?)in the under side of the wing. I had the proper metal patch repair done.
Buyer Beware ,I guess:nono:
 
Why should you log what you do. ??

1. What happens when the AD comes out on the appliance?

2. What happens if the OEM equipment gets an AD, and you have upgraded, are you still going to comply with an AD that no longer applies?

3. What will happen when the annual comes around and the -IA sees something that has been replaced with no entry?

I tell my customers "no surprises at annual time" keep me in the loop, it is better to keep the paper work right from the start than try to unf--- it later.

I have my annuals scheduled pretty close together and don't want you to tie my hangar up 3-4 months trying to get FSDO to buy off on retro fitted 337s.

Want to surprise me at annual time? next year you will be surprising some body else. because If I can't trust you to keep me in the loop, I can't trust you to do any thing.

That there is some outstanding, common-sense, advice, information and counsel.
 
Oh my goodness -- that's not an old airplane..:rofl:

Barely broken in!!

I was going to give you this link: http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cer...craft/media/aging_aircraft_best_practices.pdf

But it doesn't apply...


Wow, and seriously, that makes me feel good. Truth be told, she is very tight (don't we all want that in a lady?), has a super (sorry EdFred) paint job and a strong motor--four jugs, what's not to love? The PO was fanatic about airframe and engine maintenance, but could have cared less about the panel and interior. She is IFR certified, but with two aging VORs, a GS, ADF and DME it is strictly "hard IFR" even in light conditions. So, I am going glass as soon as I get more acquainted with her. I also plan to deck her out in leather at some point. While I was doing my familiarization training, I landed behind a Piper at Brenham and the three guys that were in it had gotten out and were headed towards the diner as I taxied in. They all turned and stared and I asked my instructor why they were staring (thought it must have been my landing!). He said, "They're not looking at you, they are looking at your plane!"

Anyway, I saw all that stuff about the "aging GA fleet" and figured I had joined it. Made my day.
 
This is precisely why I fly own, build, and fly experimental. No need to "cook the books". I do all of what I feel comfortable with and log it, and hire an A&P to do the rest.
 
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After I bought my plane I started going through the logs.
I had a loran in the panel that was never logged, how did that get by all those annuals for all those years? Who checks for these things?
I had it yanked out, but since it was "never there" the AP logged it coming out but no weight change on the W/B.???????
I guess because it was never there it didn't weigh anything,not added so not subtracted.
Makes you wonder what other things were not recorded, like the bubblegum like patch(bondo?)in the under side of the wing. I had the proper metal patch repair done.
Buyer Beware ,I guess:nono:

This sort of thing is EXACTLY why I started this thread. Funny things not logged. In my case, they are minor things having to do with the panel, the electrical and the avionics. I have no plan to remove or replace any major device, just clean up the mess. If I start to stray into A&P territory, I'll hire one.

Tom-D delineated the issues perfectly, a far better boundary to observe than what the...well, I better not say...has put out.
 
While I was doing my familiarization training, I landed behind a Piper at Brenham and the three guys that were in it had gotten out and were headed towards the diner as I taxied in. They all turned and stared and I asked my instructor why they were staring (thought it must have been my landing!). He said, "They're not looking at you, they are looking at your plane!"

Made my day.
You can't go around making statements like that and not post a picture! What's wrong with you???

:needpics:
 
I saw two pilot/owners replace an exhaust system on an engine in a guy's hangar, neither was an A&P. Was I supposed to report that?

There is no compulsory reporting or requirement to snitch.

While neither is an A&P, there is no requirement for A&P "supervision" to be in person and continuous.

If you opened your own panel, nobody would know unless you told them or they saw you. You are right, its not rocket science. An A&P certificate does not convey specific tribal secrets - its more about repeating tasks, developing a base of experience from which to make good judgments, and developing good workmanship skills. I've looked behind panels on some engineer-built homebuits whose workmanship and wiring rivals that of factory built articles (planes, RV's, Boats, Ambulances)

BUT.. the regs are clear. For a garden variety spam can, with the few exceptions we've all read and heard about, all work to be LEGAL must be blessed by an A&P and the annual must be done by an IA. Legal and safe are two different things.
 
While neither is an A&P, there is no requirement for A&P "supervision" to be in person and continuous.

The FAR's say otherwise.

FAR 43.3 (d) A person working under the supervision of a holder of a mechanic or repairman certificate may perform the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations that his supervisor is authorized to perform, if the supervisor personally observes the work being done to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly and if the supervisor is readily available, in person, for consultation. However, this paragraph does not authorize the performance of any inspection required by Part 91 or Part 125 of this chapter or any inspection performed after a major repair or alteration.
 
Where the chickens really come home to roost on stuff like this is when the plane goes in for annual, or a prepurchase inspection, with a sharp-eyed inspector. At that point, the inspector sees a bunch of stuff that either isn't documented or isn't even right, and if you've already bought the plane, you get stuck with the staggering bill to fix it.
 
You can't go around making statements like that and not post a picture! What's wrong with you???

:needpics:



Okay, have a look, she isn't shy:

6375-myMooney.jpg
 
That's pretty!
 
There is no compulsory reporting or requirement to snitch.

I wonder why they placed this in the FARs
43.7
(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:

(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of work performed.

(2) The date of completion of the work performed.

(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.


While neither is an A&P, there is no requirement for A&P "supervision" to be in person and continuous.

If you opened your own panel, nobody would know unless you told them or they saw you. You are right, its not rocket science. An A&P certificate does not convey specific tribal secrets - its more about repeating tasks, developing a base of experience from which to make good judgments, and developing good workmanship skills. I've looked behind panels on some engineer-built homebuits whose workmanship and wiring rivals that of factory built articles (planes, RV's, Boats, Ambulances)

BUT.. the regs are clear. For a garden variety spam can, with the few exceptions we've all read and heard about, all work to be LEGAL must be blessed by an A&P and the annual must be done by an IA. Legal and safe are two different things.

Not quite true either. Many CRS are maned by workers that have no certificates, and all work is signed off by the DOM, who has no FAR requirements to have any certificates. Read the repair station and manufacturers rules.
 
Okay, have a look, she isn't shy:

6375-myMooney.jpg

Dude!

She has nothing to be shy about!

So, where in Texas should we expect to see you? There are a lot of Texas folks here; I am ADS-based, frequently found on the ramp at T82 (Fredericksburg) and, when I can manage it, KMRF / Marfa.
 
Am am the new owner of an old airplane. I am also a low-time pilot, so I don't have the years of experience about these things that others may have--hence my questions.

I think the previous owner did some things that I would like to undo. What I have noticed is that pilot/owners will say "I put a new radio in", which translates to "I had an avionics shop install a radio in my plane". I saw two pilot/owners replace an exhaust system on an engine in a guy's hangar, neither was an A&P. Was I supposed to report that? How did they "get away" with doing it? It is difficult to tell who does what unless you witness it.

So, let's say I pull my panel off, make some wiring changes and put it back. Who is to know I did this?

This is what I do not understand. I think the previous owner made electrical changes that were not logged in any way. What is to keep me from undoing those things. Is it "forbidden" for the pilot/owner to remove the instrument panel? Where is the line drawn when it comes to maintenance? Please don't quote the FAA reg as I have read it.

I am not trying to save money or tamper with my safety, but as an engineer, very little about my airplane is rocket science to me. The parts I do not understand or have the tools or patience to deal with I am happy to leave to others and pay them fairly for what they do.

Please PM if anonymity is desired.

Unfortunately, "undoing" an improperly made modification by yourself is just as illegal as the mod was in the first place. Like others have said, you need to find an A&P (in some cases you'll need one with an IA as well) that will work with you and sign things off.

I'm wondering what it is about the "mods" made by the previous owner that you're uncomfortable with. Is it the quality of the work (unapproved wire, connectors, crimps, inadequate labels, etc), the design and/or function of the changes (insufficient overcurrent protection, non-standard mod, etc), or just the "illegality" of it that you are concerned with?

I'm an engineer too and frequently participate in the modification and repair of my airplanes but I do this with the assistance of a few qualified techs to keep it legal (and safe). On mechanical issues that I haven't dealt with before I'll seek the knowledge required to do it correctly from a trusted A&P, usually by having him work with me directly the first time. For electrical issues I almost always do a fair amount of the diagnosis by myself since I've found that I'm usually more capable of that than most certified mechanics, but when it comes to the "fix" I'll do the work under the supervison of an A&P (who then signs off the repair in the logs) even though I probably understand the problem better than the mechanic. And I've found that once they get to know me, the good mechanics have no problem with that (a rare few will have ego issues).

As to the "turning in" of other owners doing their own work, I'd stay well away from that unless you're certain there's a significant safety risk to you or others besides the owner. For one thing, you probably have no way of knowing that the work isn't being supervised (loosely) by a certified mechanic. And for the most part I'd say what they are doing is their own business whether perfectly kosher or not. You certainly aren't obligated to police the airport for such "evildoers" and I think that most other pilot/owners would not take kindly to you're attempts to fulfill that role.

Are you well versed in what pilot/owners are legally allowed to do in the way of "preventative maintenance"? You can find a copy of FAR 23 appendix A which spells this out fairly clearly. You should also know that when a pilot does this kind of work he is also required to sign off on the work in the logs.

I'd also like to point out that many shops and/or mechanics will often perform some repair without making a log entry, especially when the result is an airplane that's restored to the exact same condition as it was before the problem repaired occurred, e.g. tightening a loose clamp or replacing a missing fastener or a failed circuit breaker. Since most parts aren't serialized and most part 91 piston powered airplanes never undergo much scrutiny this kind of thing rarely has any negative consequences whether done by a certified mechanic or a savvy owner. I've also seen some horriblly implemented electrical work by certified mechanics that should know better. I once owned a Bonanza I purchased from an owner who had an A&P certificate. He had installed several items that were wired with rubber insulated "lampcord" and had made connections by twisting wires together and covering the splice with electrical tape (at least he didn't use masking tape!). The mechanical work he'd done was considerably better but even there I found a (very) few items that had me shaking my head in wonder.

For reasons I've never fully understood, it's quite legal for a private pilot with no mechanical experience or ability to change the oil, replace spark plugs, fuel lines, or remove and install any non-structural components of the airplanes to name a few items. IMO it would make a lot more sense if the regs required a signoff by a certified mechanic in the pilot's logbook stating that the pilot has the knowledge required to perform each specific task or type of work, in some cases restricted to a particular make/model of aircraft. And I believe that the kinds tasks that a pilot could be allowed to do and sign off independently could be expanded well beyond the current set in part 23. Unfortunately (or fortunately perhaps) I'm not running things at the FAA.
 
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For reasons I've never fully understood, it's quite legal for a private pilot with no mechanical experience or ability to change the oil, replace spark plugs, fuel lines, or remove and install any non-structural components of the airplanes to name a few items. IMO it would make a lot more sense if the regs required a signoff by a certified mechanic in the pilot's logbook stating that the pilot has the knowledge required to perform each specific task or type of work, in some cases restricted to a particular make/model of aircraft. And I believe that the kinds tasks that a pilot could be allowed to do and sign off independently could be expanded well beyond the current set in part 23. Unfortunately (or fortunately perhaps) I'm not running things at the FAA.

I've always wondered that as well. Were I in charge of the FAA, I'd say that (perhaps with a brief course or test), owners should be allowed to do their own work for Part 91 operations. You'd still be on the hook to follow all the regs, though, so it wouldn't be an excuse for any improper repair.
 
I've always wondered that as well. Were I in charge of the FAA, I'd say that (perhaps with a brief course or test), owners should be allowed to do their own work for Part 91 operations. You'd still be on the hook to follow all the regs, though, so it wouldn't be an excuse for any improper repair.

For the sake of conversation I believe one of the reasons the FAA never got around to allowing owner maintenance without an A&P certificate boils down to enforcement action.

When someone has a certificate issued by the Agency and a violation comes up it's easier to do a certificate action (suspension or revocation). If you are allowing non certificated individuals (A&P) to work under the FAR's (certificated aircraft) then when something does go wrong it makes enforcement difficult.

Just an observation and opinion.:rolleyes:
 
I've always wondered that as well. Were I in charge of the FAA, I'd say that (perhaps with a brief course or test), owners should be allowed to do their own work for Part 91 operations. You'd still be on the hook to follow all the regs, though, so it wouldn't be an excuse for any improper repair.

I wouldn't go quite so far as to allow a PP to do any and all work (i.e. apply the same treatment as for homebuilts) and would add the requirement for training and associated signoff on the training for almost any work other than topping off fluids or other maintenance items covered in the aircraft's POH. I know several pilots who wouldn't have a clue how to properly perform an oil change on an airplane (or a car for that matter). Plus there are lots of details involved in aircraft maintenance that a pilot might easily be totally unaware of which a certified A&P would have been trained on. There's more to this than knowing which end of the wrench to pound the screw with.
 
I think the FAA is also concerned about the passengers who get in the plane and the next owner in due course of the aircraft. Even at the Part 91 owner/operator level, there is a certain level of safety the FAA wants to maintain, and having only certificated maintenance on airplanes that don't say "EXPERIMENTAL" on the side is one of the ways they do that. The exception they do allow for Part 91 owner/operators is the list of 32 items you are allowed to do yourself, but even then, you leave a paper trail of what you did so the FAA or other inspector down the line can determine what you did and double-check your work if they feel the need. Beyond that, it appears they don't trust those without some certification (either individual or repair station) to perform and sign off aircraft maintenance.
 
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