Pilot debating A&P certs

ProspectingCFI

ProspectingCFI

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Messages
125
Display Name
Display name:
Matt
Just wondering how many of you pilots also got a mechanics license. Why did you do it and are you glad you did?

To mechs out there, I hear you guys really love your jobs. I'm sure I would too. I hold an MEI ticket but want something to fall back on just in case since I have to go back to school anyway, I was thinking this definitely couldn't hurt. If anything I'd gain a more thorough understanding of aircraft engines and systems.

Sac city college has an AS A&P degree that I'm eyballing. How did everybody else get your license and what's the best way to go about it?

Thanks:D
 
I have mine and I really enjoy it, but its a lot of work if you are really not going to be using it. I can't say that doing your own maintenance is a good reason to justify the cost and time. You can learn about systems without going to school. All of that said, I am not trying to talk you out of it, just trying to give you another opionion.
 
Despite being an engineer that worked at a major piston engine OEM and being in control of two piston twins (plus a former Jaguar mechanic and someone who does all my own work on my cars), I didn't bother to get my A&P. For a while I didn't have the time to do it anyway (nor the time to do my own work on the planes). The items that I want to do I can do just fine under supervision of an A&P, and the money would spend on getting and keeping the cert I don't think would be saved. Doubly so if I also had to get my IA (needed for signing off annuals). So in my case, it didn't make sense.

However as a professional pilot, an A&P can open doors since certain outfits prefer to hire pilots who can also turn wrenches.
 
And in most cases will be expected to do so as part of the job description and without additional comp.

Ted DuPuis said:
Despite being an engineer that worked at a major piston engine OEM and being in control of two piston twins (plus a former Jaguar mechanic and someone who does all my own work on my cars), I didn't bother to get my A&P. For a while I didn't have the time to do it anyway (nor the time to do my own work on the planes). The items that I want to do I can do just fine under supervision of an A&P, and the money would spend on getting and keeping the cert I don't think would be saved. Doubly so if I also had to get my IA (needed for signing off annuals). So in my case, it didn't make sense.

However as a professional pilot, an A&P can open doors since certain outfits prefer to hire pilots who can also turn wrenches.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
And in most cases will be expected to do so as part of the job description and without additional comp.
Click to expand...

Also true. Just depends on if that's a deal that works for you or not.
 
ProspectingCFI said:
Just wondering how many of you pilots also got a mechanics license. Why did you do it and are you glad you did?

To mechs out there, I hear you guys really love your jobs. I'm sure I would too. I hold an MEI ticket but want something to fall back on just in case since I have to go back to school anyway, I was thinking this definitely couldn't . If anything I'd gain a more thorough understanding of aircraft engines and systems.

Sac city college has an AS A&P degree that I'm eyballing. How did everybody else get your license and what's the best way to go about it?

Thanks:D
Click to expand...

Funny you should bring this up... I am a 46 year old pilot and just enrolled in night school for my A&P. It's definately nice to have a fall back skill but if nothing else, its fun and I get to work on my own airplane.
 
Last edited:
Being a mechanic has made be a better pilot and vice versa.

That said as something to "fall back" on it has limited value. Sure it is good "until surrendered, suspended or revoked" but if you aren't using it any potential employer will be looking at 6months before they can get any return to service authority out of you. Add in the very good odds of other applicants not having the same restriction...
 
Something else to think about in this is; although it is good forever-- consider this:
65.83 Recent experience requirements.

A certificated mechanic may not exercise the privileges of his certificate and rating unless, within the preceding 24 months—
(a) The Administrator has found that he is able to do that work; or
(b) He has, for at least 6 months—
(1) Served as a mechanic under his certificate and rating;
(2) Technically supervised other mechanics;
(3) Supervised, in an executive capacity, the maintenance or alteration of aircraft; or
(4) Been engaged in any combination of paragraph (b) (1), (2), or (3) of this sect


If you are not using it, then you cant "use" it. So being employable after a large stint away is going to get tough. Some airlines have indocs that will basically renew your license, but just food for thought.
 
flyingmoose said:
Something else to think about in this is; although it is good forever-- consider this:
65.83 Recent experience requirements.

A certificated mechanic may not exercise the privileges of his certificate and rating unless, within the preceding 24 months—
(a) The Administrator has found that he is able to do that work; or
(b) He has, for at least 6 months—
(1) Served as a mechanic under his certificate and rating;
(2) Technically supervised other mechanics;
(3) Supervised, in an executive capacity, the maintenance or alteration of aircraft; or
(4) Been engaged in any combination of paragraph (b) (1), (2), or (3) of this sect




If you are not using it, then you cant "use" it. So being employable after a large stint away is going to get tough. Some airlines have indocs that will basically renew your license, but just food for thought.
Click to expand...

I use mine every time I change the oil or swap out filters. Am I current? Where is the minimum amount of activity specified to maintain currency? I never could pin it down.
 
Witmo said:
I use mine every time I change the oil or swap out filters. Am I current? Where is the minimum amount of activity specified to maintain currency? I never could pin it down.
Click to expand...
I will look for a specific wording, but my gut feeling is "no", because bullet (1) Served as a mechanic under his certificate and rating.

Even though you may sign it off as ******a&P, you don't need an a&p to change the oil.

Good question
 
How much does A&P school cost?

I figure if I have 30+ years of flying ahead of me, would it pay off / break even or is there just so much hassle with staying current and aware of AD's and all that jazz that unless you're absolutely married to a specific make/model its perpetually expensive to stay ahead / on the learning curve?
 
supernovae said:
How much does A&P school cost?

I figure if I have 30+ years of flying ahead of me, would it pay off / break even or is there just so much hassle with staying current and aware of AD's and all that jazz that unless you're absolutely married to a specific make/model its perpetually expensive to stay ahead / on the learning curve?
Click to expand...

Depends, if all that is available is a college level course you would likely never break even.

Now if you have access to a school that does just the license then the odds may swing into your favor, but it still isn't cheap
 
Having been out of school for quite some time, im guessing the prices have changed. But I would guess anywhere from 15000-30000K. You will have about 18mon wrapped up in a traditional school. If the money and time is worth it, is up to you.
 
flyingmoose said:
Having been out of school for quite some time, im guessing the prices have changed. But I would guess anywhere from 15000-30000K. You will have about 18mon wrapped up in a traditional school. If the money and time is worth it, is up to you.
Click to expand...

Oaks says they charge $8950 for general airframe best I can tell from their site on an iPad

Powerplant was another $5500 or so when I took it in 08
 
momalley said:
This is for A&P and includes books and use of tools during the class
Click to expand...

Cool, so figure a grand or two in tools at graduation, plus any lost income while in school

Now take that number and add the cost of parts for 30 years and 30 IA fees for the annual inspection. (A&P working on only his own plane cannot qualify for an IA) I'd bet that for the vast majority of owners that number would be much greater than just paying a shop to do the work.
 
Owner-assisted can be a great learning experience. Learning to trouble-shoot and document the problems you see when flying the plane is even better. Neither requires any paper on the wall.

supernovae said:
So its just a better option to do owner assisted then? :)
Click to expand...
 
supernovae said:
So its just a better option to do owner assisted then? :)
Click to expand...

If all we look at is money then yes.

Basically going to A&P school is more than a little pricy and time consuming to call "personal enrichment" and I would only recommend it to those who have plans on using the cert to make money.
 
Wow, lots of opinions. Thanks guys great info :yes:

I knew there were recency requirements but at least 6 months every 24 is quite a lot to keep up on. is a part time A&P job common at all? Or is it mostly full time positions?

As far as difficulty and study time that needs to be invested, how does it compare to pilots? I know I had to hit the books pretty hard for cfi but still nothing compared to say somebody in med school I'd imagine :) I've often wondered this, who worked harder to get where they are?

It sounds like it can be had for around $15k huh? I'll have to look at unit costs and everything else since I want the college degree too.
 
Granted I am only a private but a PPL doesn't hold a candle to A&P.

CFI might be close, but from the effort I have seen CFI applicants put into their CFIs it is likely still a little less. Moose?

Tell you what, go read the thread on LED landing lights and picture a discussion like that going on for 18months of schooling...
 
Skylane81E said:
Granted I am only a private but a PPL doesn't hold a candle to A&P.

CFI might be close, but from the effort I have seen CFI applicants put into their CFIs it is likely still a little less.


Tell you what, go read the thread on LED landing lights and picture a discussion like that going on for 18months of schooling...
Click to expand...


Indeed we are lawyers more often than we want to be...
 
wabower said:
Owner-assisted can be a great learning experience. Learning to trouble-shoot and document the problems you see when flying the plane is even better. Neither requires any paper on the wall.
Click to expand...

Thanks man, I'll definitely look into this for the future. I like knowing how things work, just seems logical to stick to that for flying as well, and I if a little sweat equity is beneficially financially as well as educational, you can't beat that!
 
Skylane81E said:
Granted I am only a private but a PPL doesn't hold a candle to A&P.

CFI might be close, but from the effort I have seen CFI applicants put into their CFIs it is likely still a little less. Moose?

Tell you what, go read the thread on LED landing lights and picture a discussion like that going on for 18months of schooling...
Click to expand...

I would say that A&P school was harder than cfi rating.

I think u have gotten a lot of different opinions here. I think the owner assisted work is the best way to learn and save some money.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
I thought about it as well and have even taken the first of 5 courses to get my A&P. I took the General. Wayne is right when he says there are real opportunity costs in investing in a program like that.

In my area you can get through it in about 13 months 2000 some hours of class training 5 courses General, 2 airframe and 2 power plant. Or you can get just air frame for General plus 2 airframe in 9 months. Each course is about $4500 so it works out to $25k as it goes up every semester. So it would be nice to save $2k or even $3-4k per year maintenance (doing the discrepancies as you need an IA to sign off regardless) but are there really any jobs that qualify as backup career for most of us?

I dare say most of us make a heck of alot more than our mechanics do and if we fall on hard times is the best choice to become a mechanic if we cannot continue in our chosen career/job/occupation? So do it for love, do it because it might be the only way you can afford an airplane after retirement reduces your income but don't kid yourself beyond that. I did enjoy the class I took, learned alot and the guys in the class were great guys and I enjoyed the bonding experience made me feel a little bit like a high schooler again. So it was a good experience on its own.

There are a whole slue of trainings you can take for that amount of money and investment in time as a backup career like an RN-2 years, LPN -1 year, physical therpist-2 years, and these jobs guarantee about $80k salaries and full compliment of benefits nice to have when you get older than 50 years old. And at those salaries you can still afford your airplane. To me a backup career in aviation might be a CFII as even if you are living on SSN you get paid to fly someone else's plane on their dole.

I also like Webpage developer....if you took part time training for 2 years you would be one heck of a webpage design and coder. I'm not talking about the $300-400 websites either.... Not that anyone is going to hire a 55-65 year old developer but it is easy enough to be self employed in this field especially if you setup your own Webpage design storefront online. So I choose Website development because it is much closer to the IT field I am already doing nicely in and I do not need to switch careers to benefit from it. Since half the new world is built virtually these days it seems a safe bet.

My Son is an Electrical Engineer so I advised him to take about the same amount of money/time and work towards his Masters (MBA). This helps him exceed in his same career but also would help him change careers if he needed to. I do not think that with the shortage of engineers he has to worry about going out of demand but a masters could increase is promotability.

Another opportunity whether it is financial savings or improving your wealth, I choose to spend a bit more than a year heavy part time working on a complete remodel of my 2nd home (for retirement). We gutted it, spray foam insulated it, new roof and exterior, ran new electric, plumbing, sewers/lagoon, moved walls to bring that 40 year old house into a very new fashionable Executive 2 BR design and raised its value no doubt at least $100k, $70k more than we spent on it. The making the house Platinum LEED catigory so the utlities will run about $1 per day. So looking at it like this not only is it a more pleasurable and valuable house but it is an annuity in that I save $500 or more per month on utilities for a similar sized midwest home.

So what I am saying is that there are real opportunities and costs so consider them all when deciding. Not only the cost of the school but the cost of your time.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
In my area you can get through it in about 13 months 2000 some hours of class training 5 courses General, 2 airframe and 2 power plant. Or you can get just air frame for General plus 2 airframe in 9 months. Each course is about $4500 so it works out to $25k as it goes up every semester.
Click to expand...

For someone who wishes to make aviation his/her career, putting in a year of life and 30k is probably a worthwhile investment.

If I remember it right, this was through a community college. How many credits would this get you and are they transferable to some sort of general purpose bachelors later on ?
 
weilke said:
For someone who wishes to make aviation his/her career, putting in a year of life and 30k is probably a worthwhile investment.

If I remember it right, this was through a community college. How many credits would this get you and are they transferable to some sort of general purpose bachelors later on ?
Click to expand...

Yes, Good Lord. Two relatively easy ways to get your A&P. Do it the way I did it and spend your afternoons and weekends working on airplanes under the watchful eye of an A&P while you are going to college to get your engineering/physics/math degree. Four years in college working afternoons, nights, and weekends gets you the requisite 30 months of experience to sit for the exam (mine was with Pacific Southwest Airlines, God bless them, great college job and teaching "stew school" (flight attendant school) teaching them aircraft systems in return for what they could "teach me" about anatomy).

Take the community college courses cold. Thirty bucks a unit for thirty units is $900. They are SOME transferable to a 4 year degree.

COme on people, this isn't rocket science. You are making it FAR too hard for what it is. REad the FAR to your benefit and fit yourself into a niche and go for it.

Oh, and by the way, the requirement for recency of experience is WAY wide. For example, just explaining all this to you folks is a couple of hours towards that 6 months experience for me. Getting greasy is half of it; paperwork is the other half.

Jim
 
Last edited:
weirdjim said:
Yes, Good Lord. Two relatively easy ways to get your A&P. Do it the way I did it and spend your afternoons and weekends working on airplanes under the watchful eye of an A&P while you are going to college to get your engineering/physics/math degree. Four years in college working afternoons, nights, and weekends gets you the requisite 30 months of experience to sit for the exam (mine was with Pacific Southwest Airlines, God bless them, great college job and teaching "stew school" (flight attendant school) teaching them aircraft systems in return for what they could "teach me" about anatomy).
Click to expand...
Yes you can do it that way...I personally wouldn't consider 30 months experience "relatively easy" but you are right, you can do it that way.

weirdjim said:
COme on people, this isn't rocket science. You are making it FAR too hard for what it is. REad the FAR to your benefit and fit yourself into a niche and go for it.
Click to expand...
I am not sure anyone made it rocket science..just answering OP's questions best we can.

weirdjim said:
Oh, and by the way, the requirement for recency of experience is WAY wide. For example, just explaining all this to you folks is a couple of hours towards that 6 months experience for me. Getting greasy is half of it; paperwork is the other half.
Click to expand...
Well its not that wide, its actually quite specific.
6 months experience the the last 24 is not covered under your explanation. As usual, most play the game of if nothing happens then nobody asks questions.
 
If you aren't trying to make a career of it, do the full monty and build a kit plane. You get a repairman's certificate for the plane you built. That's what I did with an RV10.

Since I just "snapped on" a factory Lycoming, I decided to attend Lycoming engine school to gain some skills in maintaining my engine.

There may be a 'back door' A&P path for homebuilders. I've heard people talking about getting then getting their AP based on the building experience and some remedial self study to enable test passing. Working with the FAA and documenting one's experience I'm told is the key at succeeding. I'm not going to be trying that.
 
Dean V said:
Ok, an oil change and a compression/timing ck.
Click to expand...
again It says:Within the last 24months------
(b) He has, for at least 6 months—
(1) Served as a mechanic under his certificate and rating;
(2) Technically supervised other mechanics;
(3) Supervised, in an executive capacity, the maintenance or alteration of aircraft; or
(4) Been engaged in any combination of paragraph (b) (1), (2), or (3) of this sect

I don't claim to be a lawyer, but I am guessing no! Some argue that its broad..ok well call your FSDO and ask them what they think. If they say its ok..go with it.
 
flyingmoose said:
Some argue that its broad..ok well call your FSDO and ask them what they think.
Click to expand...

And at the same time call your lawyer and ask if you need advice; call your tax CPA and see if you need advice; call your preacher and see if you need counseling...

Personally, I call my PME at the FSDO when I have a serious question, not a hypothetical what-if.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
And at the same time call your lawyer and ask if you need advice; call your tax CPA and see if you need advice; call your preacher and see if you need counseling...

Personally, I call my PME at the FSDO when I have a serious question, not a hypothetical what-if.

Jim
Click to expand...
Good for you Jim.

If someone plans to get a certificate and wants to know if changing his/her oil will keep them current, it would be a prudent question to ask before spending many thousands and many months of time to achieve such goal--such as the OP.

The point in the statement was that if you need an interpretation on something they would be the ones to ask, because they are the ones that will be enforcing it. To me it means nothing if you want to play the game of -"Its better to beg for forgiveness, then to ask for permission!"
 
I dont believe anyone who works in general aviation has a hard time to remain current on his A&P certificate, it's easy enough to have a job title on your business card that establishes 'Supervised, in an executive capacity'.
 
weilke said:
I dont believe anyone who works in general aviation has a hard time to remain current on his A&P certificate, it's easy enough to have a job title on your business card that establishes 'Supervised, in an executive capacity'.
Click to expand...

Until something happens and the FSDO comes and asks for proof....
 
Local FSDO is taking a more "by the book" approach to experience and work-related issues required for approval to test.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top