Pickling Lycoming IO-360 for 1 year

jbrinker

jbrinker

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Aug 28, 2015
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Auburn, NY
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Jbrinker
My acrosport II biplane will be in storage/restoration for at least 9 months. With luck I hope to have it flying by next fall.

It was flying frequently (at least monthly) up until 8/2017. It has not run since. Gas is drained, current oil (Shell 20/50) has ~25hrs on it.

I plan to follow the latest Lycoming service letter. I have drained the oil, and will refill with 5Qts of Philips Anti-rust aircraft oil 20/50, 0.5qt of Cortec VPCI-326 rust inhibitor, and camguard.

I got 4 gallons of 100LL at the local drome, and brought it to my hangar. Removed the gascolator and replaced the fuel filter.

Local temps are 30's in the AM, will be ~45-50 this afternoon. Engine has remote oil coolers, I plan to fully block them off (using cardboard/duck tape) and use my boat battery (since the plane battery did not come with it - it was shot) to start the engine. Run it up to ~1200 RPM and wait for oil temps to rise off the peg, then run up to 2000 or so and wait for oil to rise to at least 180F.

Local A&P said "I dont know if you will get the temps up, you might be better off pulling the plugs and spinning it as fast as you can with the starter, until you get oil pressure, and repeat that a few times and call it good". He also noted the engine has chrome cylinders "and thats good, you shouldn't have to worry about cylinder corrosion"

Either way - the next steps are spray cylinders with the oil/Cortec mixture, replace plugs, insert dessicant bags and plug exhaust and intake (tape off with plastic). Drain fuel. Hang tag on prop "do not move"

Looking for comments, considerations, and anything else I may have overlooked. Planning to do this today (late afternoon) since the weather will only get worse from here on out.
 
Yep, thats the exact letter I am using for guidance. I guess my biggest question is about the comment my A&P made - can I get the temps up on the ground? And if not am I better off just "spinning it up" as much as I can and calling it good. (I.e. running it and not getting up to temp may be worse than just spinning it up)
 
jbrinker said:
Yep, thats the exact letter I am using for guidance. I guess my biggest question is about the comment my A&P made - can I get the temps up on the ground? And if not am I better off just "spinning it up" as much as I can and calling it good. (I.e. running it and not getting up to temp may be worse than just spinning it up)
Click to expand...

I would not be so concerned with getting up to operating temperature as I would with complete circulation of the fresh oil. You would want to get all of the old, and potentially contaminated. oil out of the engine. Draining the oil cooler before installing the rust preventive oil would be a bonus. Of course you will never completely purge the engine of all contaminants in the oil. That may entail running your chosen rust preventative oil through the system, draining it, and then refilling with fresh clean oil. Twice the cost for oil but in the long run may be worth the extra expense given the costs you could incur should rust attack things like the crank and cam.

From your location I see you are near both Lake Ontario and the Finger Lakes. You likely see the same high humidity we see in Michigan so overkill may be the best option.

I could not readily find online whether The oil you are planning on using meets MIL-C-6529C Type I as Lycoming recommends.

My two cents worth as a retired A&P/IA. It's easy for me to spend your money.
 
Phillips anti rust instructions say to run the oil in with a minimum 20 minute flight. My engine has 11-1/2 quarts of anti-rust and a pint of Camguard in it right now. Winter is here and early winter's short days suck for flying.
 
Don't run it unless you fly it for awhile. All you'll do on the ground is pump more condensate into the crankcase, moisture that won't get driven out by elevated temperatures, making the corrosion risks much worse. Motor it with the starter as the A&P said.
 
This Lycoming 180 horse was removed with 250 hours TT, mounted nose down on a build stand, completely capped off, and filled with pref-oil. 12 months later these pictures were taken.DSCN0400.jpgDSCN0399.jpg
 

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Tom-D said:
This Lycoming 180 horse was removed with 250 hours TT, mounted nose down on a build stand, completely capped off, and filled with pref-oil. 12 months later these pictures were taken.View attachment 57607View attachment 57608
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so, no matter what you do. :) OBTW, this engine was stored in heated garage for the year it was not being used.
 
jbrinker said:
My acrosport II biplane will be in storage/restoration for at least 9 months. With luck I hope to have it flying by next fall.

It was flying frequently (at least monthly) up until 8/2017. It has not run since. Gas is drained, current oil (Shell 20/50) has ~25hrs on it.

I plan to follow the latest Lycoming service letter. I have drained the oil, and will refill with 5Qts of Philips Anti-rust aircraft oil 20/50, 0.5qt of Cortec VPCI-326 rust inhibitor, and camguard.

I got 4 gallons of 100LL at the local drome, and brought it to my hangar. Removed the gascolator and replaced the fuel filter.

Local temps are 30's in the AM, will be ~45-50 this afternoon. Engine has remote oil coolers, I plan to fully block them off (using cardboard/duck tape) and use my boat battery (since the plane battery did not come with it - it was shot) to start the engine. Run it up to ~1200 RPM and wait for oil temps to rise off the peg, then run up to 2000 or so and wait for oil to rise to at least 180F.

Local A&P said "I dont know if you will get the temps up, you might be better off pulling the plugs and spinning it as fast as you can with the starter, until you get oil pressure, and repeat that a few times and call it good". He also noted the engine has chrome cylinders "and thats good, you shouldn't have to worry about cylinder corrosion"

Either way - the next steps are spray cylinders with the oil/Cortec mixture, replace plugs, insert dessicant bags and plug exhaust and intake (tape off with plastic). Drain fuel. Hang tag on prop "do not move"

Looking for comments, considerations, and anything else I may have overlooked. Planning to do this today (late afternoon) since the weather will only get worse from here on out.
Click to expand...

jb:
Short of dropping the whole engine in a tank of oil, you'll need to re-preserve on a "regular" basis over that year of storage. Even components stored in pressure containers and purged with nitrogen have to be redone at regular intervals. While it's not practical to re-run the engine in this state, you can improvise and maintain a good level of preservation. However, simply following the above bulletin one time and parking it in the corner for a year will probably not give you the results you hoped for.
 
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There's nobody in Auburn, NY that wants to fly an airplane for you over the winter?
 
I guess I wasn't clear, the plane will be disassembled. Wings are off, and there is work to do, it will not fly for a year likely.

I changed the oil today, and put some gas in. Was just about to wheel it out and try to fire it up when I threw my back out. Going to have to wait a few days. Also discovered that my biggest 7/8 socket will not fit the plugs. So ordering one now.

Planning on Saturday weather permitting.
 
GRG55 said:
Proving once again, Whidbey Island is no place for an airplane engine...;)
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actually it was stored in Fairbanks Ak.
I didn't see it until they got over their OMG surprise.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Keeping things warm to accelerate the rate of corrosion seems to be a popular thing.
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Keeping the hangar warm during winter should keep the humidity low, everything else being equal.
I wonder if they ran the engine with fresh oil first to flush out the corrosive oil before pickling.
 
Warmer air increases total humidity potential. Relative humidity has nothing to do with it. Increase in temperature accelerates corrosion. If I needed to store an engine for a year the perfect place would be in a walk-in commercial freezer after doing the standard preservative oil run-in.
 
Stewartb said:
Warmer air increases total humidity potential. Relative humidity has nothing to do with it. Increase in temperature accelerates corrosion. If I needed to store an engine for a year the perfect place would be in a walk-in commercial freezer after doing the standard preservative oil run-in.
Click to expand...

Well, that should be perfect then - this area will likely be below freezing almost continuously from Dec 1 to March anyway.

Since I blew my back out yesterday, I hope to get back there Saturday. If I can get it to start, I'll run it up to temp and shut it down. I think I can get the oil to operating temp, I blocked off both oil coolers completely. The air will be cold (~40F) so hoping I get sufficient cylinder cooling. I will keep an eye on the CHT gauge. Planning to just tie it to my truck and chock the wheels, hold on the brakes, and run it up to 2200 or maybe more and wait.

If I cant start it without a lot of screwing around I'll pull the plugs and spin it as much as I can with the starter. (Plug socket arriving Friday)
 
jbrinker said:
Local A&P said "I dont know if you will get the temps up, you might be better off pulling the plugs and spinning it as fast as you can with the starter, until you get oil pressure, and repeat that a few times and call it good".
Click to expand...
I would go with that rather than putting combustion products in your fresh oil. But, then, I ain't no A&P.
 
To ground run to get your oil temps up to normal? Unlikely. Tried it. Be careful of blocking anything other than the oil cooler. If you have an engine monitor watch your CHTs. If not? Limit your ground run to 5 or 10 minutes. For extended storage you should spray preservative oil into each cylinder after it cools. Tape off the exhaust and intake. Use dessicant plugs if you have some. Don't rotate the crank after you're all oiled up. You shouldn't have any problem.

When using anti rust oil fill the engine to max capacity. There's no reason not to. Higher oil level is better for the intended purpose.
 
Stewartb said:
When using anti rust oil fill the engine to max capacity. There's no reason not to. Higher oil level is better for the intended purpose.
Click to expand...
This causes any water in the engine to run down to the lowest point it can and set there.
 
Water sinks to the bottom on the sump regardless of the oil level. The point is to provide oil coverage to keep more parts from being exposed to air.
 
GRG55 said:
Proving once again, Whidbey Island is no place for an airplane engine...;)
Click to expand...

So what's wrong in those pictures? I can't see the bearing in those pictures...
 
My Theory on this engine's corrosion.

It was there prior to the preservation. and the oil didn't stop it.
 
Another note, they typically tape off the inlet and exhaust and pile desiccant bags inside the nacelle on jets. In fact, the manufacturer's engine programs require it, and if it’s not done they can kick you off the program effectively surrendering the money you paid.

Program = the "power by the hour" type programs where a separate company manages all the maintenance costs associated with turbine engine.

These are extremely popular and can be reactivated by baking them in an oven.

https://www.uline.com/Product/Detai...wn-Bag-Desiccants-Unit-Size-80-34-Gallon-Drum
https://www.uline.com/PDF/IS-1055-SPFR.PDF

There are humidity indicators that are taped to the clear plastic used to enclose the engine, allowing monitoring.
 
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bnt83 said:
Another note, they typically tape off the inlet and exhaust and pile desiccant bags inside the nacelle on jets. In fact, the manufacturer's engine programs require it, and if it’s not done they can kick you off the program effectively surrendering the money you paid.

There are humidity indicators that are taped to the clear plastic used to enclose the engine, allowing monitoring.
Click to expand...
We had cans to put a module in, and a specific number of bags of desiccant bags to place in the can and a new indicator.
then a schedule inspection posted.
 
OK you guys are scaring me with these nasty rusty pics... I guess I'll do the best I can. Short of pulling the engine and dunking it in a tub of oil, not much I can do but the above procedure.

I have thought about pulling the motor off for the winter (as there will be other work to do that may require this anyway), but again, where would I store it that's any better? Warmer (above freezing) is probably worse.

Shooting for either Sunday afternoon or Tuesday afternoon now. Look to be the warmest, driest days coming up (mid 40's). Have to go buy some 2' battery cable extensions so I can use the boat battery. Jumper cables are not going to carry enough current to start it I think.
 
Automotive jumper cables should easily handle a starting battery.
 
jbrinker said:
OK you guys are scaring me with these nasty rusty pics...
Click to expand...
Your typical used used Piper/Cessna/whatever has more than likely sat for months to years with no pickling at all at some point in it's existance. Will you make it to TBO on an engine that flies 5 hours a year - not likely. But it's hardly unusual to get many years of service.

If you can't fly it, don't run it.
 
Stewartb said:
Warmer air increases total humidity potential. Relative humidity has nothing to do with it. Increase in temperature accelerates corrosion. If I needed to store an engine for a year the perfect place would be in a walk-in commercial freezer after doing the standard preservative oil run-in.
Click to expand...

A high relative humidity implies that the dew point is closer to the current air temperature. A relative humidity of 100% indicates the dew point is equal to the current temperature and that the air is maximally saturated with water. When the moisture content remains constant and temperature increases, relative humidity decreases. There is a forumula to convert dew point spread to relative humidity.

If you heat cold air, the relative humidity of the air DECREASES. Its the same amount of water in the air at both temperatures. Just the way things work. Things tend to dry out in lower relative humidity. So relative humidity matters. I know my wood guitars crack in the winter if I dont humidify them. Thats why they use that term relative humidity. Similar idea is dew point spread.

You’ve probably heard the weather forecaster talking about the “relative humidity” (also called RH) of the air. It’s relative because it depends on the temperature outside. For example, if it is 20F outside and the relatively humidity is 80%, when you take that air, bring it inside and warm it to 70F, that same air will only have a relatively humidity of about 15% – very dry indeed! This is why clothes dryers use heat and air to dry clothes.
 
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bnt83 said:
Another note, they typically tape off the inlet and exhaust and pile desiccant bags inside the nacelle on jets. In fact, the manufacturer's engine programs require it, and if it’s not done they can kick you off the program effectively surrendering the money you paid.

Program = the "power by the hour" type programs where a separate company manages all the maintenance costs associated with turbine engine.

These are extremely popular and can be reactivated by baking them in an oven.

https://www.uline.com/Product/Detai...wn-Bag-Desiccants-Unit-Size-80-34-Gallon-Drum
https://www.uline.com/PDF/IS-1055-SPFR.PDF

There are humidity indicators that are taped to the clear plastic used to enclose the engine, allowing monitoring.
Click to expand...
Yeah, we pile about twenty of them in an engine and change them out, often.

Having a program and the manpower to monitor it, is nice.
 
Once upon a time I bought a Warner 165 in a can, prez date was 1943, the indicator was still blue.
I took it out of the can for inspection, after I got it on the build stand, and saw the condition I was sorry I removed it from preservation. the can was sealed with 10 bags in it and then purged with N2. so engine was like new.
 
Frigging plane...

Well, today was the day. 50F and sunny, took the afternoon off. Gathered what I needed and headed out.
I got battery cables, bolts, wired up the boat battery to the plane. Tried it briefly, strong crank. Good.
Buttoned it up and pulled it out of the hangar, tied the tail down to two of my mounted spare tires, and roped it to my car.
Chocked the wheels. Climbed in and followed the start procedure.
- Pump manual fuel pump until fuel flow moves
- Mixture rich
- Throttle open 1/2 inch
- Crank it

Pop.. VROOOOM. Damn, started on the first crank! Throttle back, and Vrr. Vr.... rrr Cough pop. Engine stalled...

Ran for about 30 seconds. Try to restart. Cranking but will not even pop. Cannot get fuel pressure to show on the gauge.

Looks like the manual boost pump (which is way back by the pilot, and is the low spot on the plane) is shot. I pulled the fuel line up at the engine, and cannot get fuel to come out of that line no matter how hard I pump it. It has gas in it though, as I checked. I suspect if I filled the tank ALL the way, it would flow by gravity to the engine pump. But clearly the boost pump is not able to do anything.

So, looks like thats it for the winter. Put it back, cleaned up the hangar, and sealed it up for now. Dammit. At least the preservation oil got slung around a little I hope. I cranked it about a total of 5 mintues with 30psi of oil pressure trying to start it after the initial run.

Seriously thinking about re-doing the fuel system to have an electric boost pump up front and no wobble and extra plumbing.

Jeff
 
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