Picking up bad habits... who’s really responsible?

azblackbird

azblackbird

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azblackbird
I’ve read many threads here of student private pilots being shuffled around from one instructor to another. I’ve also read the gamut of threads here from various CFI’s on steep approaches vs. dragged-in approaches, short field takeoffs vs. soft field takeoffs, flying with an experienced pilot vs. only flying with with your instructor, crabbing vs. straight in slideslipping, carrying power to the threshold vs. a no-power glideslope, etc. etc. Obviously, with all the different threads on how to do this or that, I’ve come to realize that many CFI’s have their own unique teaching concepts and are not all on the same page.

Question is... what’s a student to do when he trains with one CFI on “supposedly” proper procedures, then get’s shuffled to another CFI who’s teaching and aeronautical concepts are entirely different from the previous CFI(s) and who deems those previous CFI(s) were teaching bad habits?

Who’s the final authority on what a “bad habit” really is? The DPE?
 
azblackbird said:
Who’s the final authority on what a “bad habit” really is?
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The Student.

Trust but verify.

It is a license to learn and that does not mean limiting to beyond what your CFI taught you, that includes WHAT your CFI taught you.

I havd had CFI's tell me things that I knew and/or discovered to be blatantly wrong...but I knew when to nod, smile, and comply and when to pick my battles.
 
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You will also find that some of these things can differ with the plane you are flying. I trained mainly in a Warrior 2. Like a 172, if I was not at idol when, as my CFII liked to call it, my committed point for landing, that plane would float like crazy, expecially on cold days. So it was usually at about 50 feet above the ground and a few hundred feet short of threshold you pulled the power. Now the airport I trained out had a steeper than normal glideslope due to trees, and you could not safely drag it in, you needed a somewhat steep approach.

Now I fly in a Saratoga, and the weight make a massive difference. That plane requires some power all the way to landing. If you cut power to idol you will sink way too fast. On that plane I generally cut to idol about the time the mains hit. So what you are being taught may vary somewhat by plane type.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
Shawn said:
I havd had CFI's tell me things that I knew and/or discovered to be blatantly wrong...but I knew when to nod, smile, and comply and when to pick my battles.
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What if the student doesn't know any better on if what he's being taught is right or wrong that could develop into a "bad habit"?
 
azblackbird said:
What if the student doesn't know any better on if what he's being taught is right or wrong that could develop into a "bad habit"?
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As @jordane93 notes, it depends if you are talking about a procedure or a technique. With techniques, there is no real right or wrong. It's whatever works for you. Yes, instructors have their own pet techniques, and may try to impose them on you. But, hopefully you can decide on your own what works better after having seen various examples.
 
I actually use two main CFI'S during training. The first was very by the book, numbers guy. You are on downwind your speed is this, on base this, your RPM should be set at this. You get the point, and that worked for him, not as well for me. My second CFI, was much more get a feel for the plane and what works for you. Not to say that when I set RPM's based on feel that they were much different, but he was much loser overall. That turned out to be better for me.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
Maybe this is a tangent, but in general I see a depressingly large disregard for reason-based and evidence-based practices in aviation. I've met so many people in aviation that simply do not care what research and modern knowledge tells us the best practices are. They want to do something a particular way because that's how they've always done it and they're still alive to talk about it (as if their own experience is a sufficient sample size) or because it's what a grey-haired guy showed them (as if every aviator thats been flying for xx number years always know best).

It's those reasons, I believe, that make it hard on students who have to fly with multiple instructors in a non-standardized program.
 
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The student and their common sense.

The DPE is just there to make sure you meet PTS/ACS standards, even if you have bad habits, if you can still meet the standard he has no option but to pass you.
 
azblackbird said:
What if the student doesn't know any better on if what he's being taught is right or wrong that could develop into a "bad habit"?
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The pilot in command is responsible for operation of the aircraft. The point of flight training is to become pilot in command. You will find very little tolerance for blame shifting in this field. People who shift blame are hazards to the rest of us.

Your instructor is not your only source of information. Nor should you expect to be spoon fed everything. It will take a lot of effort on your part to figure all this out. And your instructor WILL be wrong about something at some point.
 
Everskyward said:
Yes, instructors have their own pet techniques, and may try to impose them on you. But, hopefully you can decide on your own what works better after having seen various examples.
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That's the dilemma. Here's an example... let's say during crosswind landings the student was taught by one instructor to crab it in and then kick the rudder on touchdown. He gets shuffled to another instructor who doesn't believe in crabbing, or is uncomfortable in teaching it and prefers to slip it in. The student is comfortable with crabbing, but is not comfortable with slipping. So which one of those techniques should the student practice even though his current instructor doesn't believe in or teach the crabbing technique?
 
The only bad habit I know of is high wing.
 
azblackbird said:
I’ve read many threads here of student private pilots being shuffled around from one instructor to another. I’ve also read the gamut of threads here from various CFI’s on steep approaches vs. dragged-in approaches, short field takeoffs vs. soft field takeoffs, flying with an experienced pilot vs. only flying with with your instructor, crabbing vs. straight in slideslipping, carrying power to the threshold vs. a no-power glideslope, etc. etc. Obviously, with all the different threads on how to do this or that, I’ve come to realize that many CFI’s have their own unique teaching concepts and are not all on the same page.

Question is... what’s a student to do when he trains with one CFI on “supposedly” proper procedures, then get’s shuffled to another CFI who’s teaching and aeronautical concepts are entirely different from the previous CFI(s) and who deems those previous CFI(s) were teaching bad habits?

Who’s the final authority on what a “bad habit” really is? The DPE?
Click to expand...

Jordane93 has once again nailed it. Procedures are found in the POH and are dictated by the manufacturer; techniques vary between instructors. Listen to all of them, do your own research, and don't believe everything you are told. You will find that DEs have seen it all and are flexible when it comes to technique.

Bob
 
bobmrg said:
Jordane93 has once again nailed it. Procedures are found in the POH and are dictated by the manufacturer; techniques vary between instructors. Listen to all of them, do your own research, and don't believe everything you are told. You will find that DEs have seen it all and are flexible when it comes to technique.

Bob
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Hi Bob,

I have to keep reminding myself that this is a tough crowd and I need to be more selective with my wording, lest I catch the wrath of the POA Peanut Gallery. ;)

BTW... you write some good stuff. Have learned a lot from you already.:cool:
 
azblackbird said:
That's the dilemma. Here's an example... let's say during crosswind landings the student was taught by one instructor to crab it in and then kick the rudder on touchdown. He gets shuffled to another instructor who doesn't believe in crabbing, or is uncomfortable in teaching it and prefers to slip it in. The student is comfortable with crabbing, but is not comfortable with slipping. So which one of those techniques should the student practice even though his current instructor doesn't believe in or teach the crabbing technique?
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Which is the bad habit?

I would suggest that both instructors are teaching bad habits by teaching that only one way is "proper".

But, when I'm with an instructor, I do whatever I have to do to shut the guy up and move on when he/she/it gets out.
 
azblackbird said:
That's the dilemma. Here's an example... let's say during crosswind landings the student was taught by one instructor to crab it in and then kick the rudder on touchdown. He gets shuffled to another instructor who doesn't believe in crabbing, or is uncomfortable in teaching it and prefers to slip it in. The student is comfortable with crabbing, but is not comfortable with slipping. So which one of those techniques should the student practice even though his current instructor doesn't believe in or teach the crabbing technique?
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As a student, I have no problem trying something a different way. As an instructor, as long as the student accomplishes the task (in this case landing without sideload on the gear) I am fine with it, and a DPE will be too. In the case you present, you should be able to do it both ways. But in the end, do it the way that is most comfortable for you.
 
azblackbird said:
That's the dilemma. Here's an example... let's say during crosswind landings the student was taught by one instructor to crab it in and then kick the rudder on touchdown. He gets shuffled to another instructor who doesn't believe in crabbing, or is uncomfortable in teaching it and prefers to slip it in. The student is comfortable with crabbing, but is not comfortable with slipping. So which one of those techniques should the student practice even though his current instructor doesn't believe in or teach the crabbing technique?
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Both. Why limit yourself? Some aircraft have limitations that require one of the two. You should be able to utilize both techniques.
 
azblackbird said:
As the old adage goes... "Yea, but I was taught that way by my instructor". How many times have you heard that? :rolleyes:
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When I ask a pilot why he does something a certain way, this is one of the very few answers that i consider absolutely wrong.
 
TBH, my instructor taught me both slipping and crabbing. The only thing he added was that passengers not familiar with flying tend to get freaked out by slipping, and are more comfortable with crabbing. I have not tested that theory. I know how to do both, but usually crab myself. That reminds me that I have not done an aggressive slip in a little bit of time, should practice that some more.
 
azblackbird said:
That's the dilemma. Here's an example... let's say during crosswind landings the student was taught by one instructor to crab it in and then kick the rudder on touchdown. He gets shuffled to another instructor who doesn't believe in crabbing, or is uncomfortable in teaching it and prefers to slip it in. The student is comfortable with crabbing, but is not comfortable with slipping. So which one of those techniques should the student practice even though his current instructor doesn't believe in or teach the crabbing technique?
Click to expand...

In this example, BOTH instructors are wrong to PUSH only one technique. How's that for harsh?

The student, should realize that both techniques are valid and work on the one they are *least* comfortable with. :)

As far as instructors who claim something to be true that isn't technique... there's a surefire way to stop that. "Can you show me a reference that I can read for that?" That is, if you feel it important enough or confusing enough to start the battle. Sometimes it is not worth it. And it's almost NEVER worth it IN the cockpit. Everything is written down in aviation that is really important, somewhere. Reference it, or I'm skeptical. I'd happily accept that challenge from a student.

The most distracted and annoyed I've ever been in a cockpit was an instructor yelling about something that was TECHNIQUE as if it were God's own gospel. I thanked him after the flight, paid him and went on my way, and we didn't get a chance to sit and discuss it for over a year because, I simply didn't hire him anymore. That simple.

Later when we discussed it away from any airplanes, we figured out both how and why the issue came to a head in the airplane, over cocktails in lawn chairs at OSH.

Sometimes stupid stuff just happens. I'd fly with him again. I wouldn't for a while.
 
James331 said:
The student and their common sense.

The DPE is just there to make sure you meet PTS/ACS standards, even if you have bad habits, if you can still meet the standard he has no option but to pass you.
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This. I've had a DPE and a Checkairman call me out on a bad habit or two but have never failed a ride. I took their advice to heart though and fixed what I was doing wrong.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Which is the bad habit?

I would suggest that both instructors are teaching bad habits by teaching that only one way is "proper".

But, when I'm with an instructor, I do whatever I have to do to shut the guy up and move on when he/she/it gets out.
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This.

It ain't easy at the beginning when we think CFIs are privy to some special gospel. But part of our learning process is being exposed to various techniques. The good instructors will identify technique as such; the bad will force one on you or, worse, violate the First Commandment by trying to change yours.

But, as I said, it ain't easy for the student to determine what's what. I don't consider myself particularly easy to influence, but during my first IPC after getting my instrument ticket I let myself get so flummoxed by a CFII who was convinced my rating instructor had one of the holding pattern tricks backward, that I could not properly enter an ad hoc hold, and barely enter a published one, until I worked on my CFII and found a different technique altogether.
 
azblackbird said:
What if the student doesn't know any better on if what he's being taught is right or wrong that could develop into a "bad habit"?
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Then the student is lazy. There is a plethora of books and other resources out there. Start with the POH and Airplane Flying Handbook.
 
azblackbird said:
That's the dilemma. Here's an example... let's say during crosswind landings the student was taught by one instructor to crab it in and then kick the rudder on touchdown. He gets shuffled to another instructor who doesn't believe in crabbing, or is uncomfortable in teaching it and prefers to slip it in. The student is comfortable with crabbing, but is not comfortable with slipping. So which one of those techniques should the student practice even though his current instructor doesn't believe in or teach the crabbing technique?
Click to expand...
Very few instructors would be that strict, although if the student sucks at the technique that they've been taught, then they might be inclined to try another one.
 
azblackbird said:
Hi Bob,

I have to keep reminding myself that this is a tough crowd and I need to be more selective with my wording, lest I catch the wrath of the POA Peanut Gallery. ;)

BTW... you write some good stuff. Have learned a lot from you already.:cool:
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Some people get cut a lot more slack then others, you'll figure it out...it's kinda like high school in here sometimes, complete with drama queens, jokers, class clowns and everything in between.

I had 8 different instructors for my instrument rating, 5 or so for my PPL and at least that much for my Commercial. If you can find a single instructor to take you through your entire training, good on you :).

If you can't, as @jordane93 and @bobmrg mentioned a make sure you learn the proper technique. The DPE ain't going to care about personal preference and believe me, they will have their own as well. For example, I was taught a couple different ways to fly a pattern, and on my check-ride I was a bit too wide. The DPE asked "If your engine died right now, could you make the runway?" I stupidly said "I don't know" to which he replied "Then why are you out this far?". I had been taught to fly a wider pattern, but after that experience I always keep it nice and tight.
 
azblackbird said:
What if the student doesn't know any better on if what he's being taught is right or wrong that could develop into a "bad habit"?
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Then the student is not ready for the checkride.

Using the power off/power on short final approach issue as one example, you the freshly minted PP need to have the knowledge to do both and the judgement to choose wisely. There is no single answer to the question of how to land.

Maybe if your CFI insists one way is the only way you might need a new instructor... Food for thought. -Skip
 
I'd guess the crab and kick guy flies big iron and teaches on the side. Either technique is valid depending on several variables. In a light plane slipping gives you a good feel for how bad the x-wind is. If you have full aileron into the wind and you're still not tracking the center line you arr going around or to a different runway.
 
Oh - if anybody cares - my preferred method (and, thus, the PROPER method), particularly if I want to get in short over an obstacle (with or without a crosswind), is the slip and kick.

Don't recall seeing that mentioned so far in this thread.
 
I didn't see it mentioned, but a possible reason for the differences in procedures between instructors may be as simple as one instructor is teaching you how to pass the checkride and how the local examiner wants to see the maneuvers while the other instructor is teaching you the maneuvers but also teaching you useful techniques for a lifetime of aviation.

There are textbook answers for how to perform the maneuvers that all the instructors should be aware of and teaching by. Consult the appropriate ACS/PTS and the airplane flying handbook for details. Note that these are generic descriptions though, and are aimed at covering the most airplanes with a single description. Because of this, there may be some airplane dependent variances that should be accounted for. The airplane's flight manual should have some information regarding things like entry speeds and any special configuration you should use.
 
I land full throttle in my Cherokee - is that not the correct technique?
 
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