PIC stumper

[alaskaflyer]

OK, we all now know that there are many situations for which you can log PIC time when you may not be the legal PIC of the flight.

What are the situations in which you may be the legal PIC on the flight but may not log flight time as PIC?

Leaving aside professional ATP and CFI situations.

 

[Teller1900]

I think (without referencing any relevant FAR) that if you're only SIC qualified (not PIC typed) in an aircraft requiring two crew members/type rating, and the PIC becomes incapacitated somehow, you assume the duties of PIC, though not the ability to log it. I think. Other than that, I got nothin' off the top of my head.

 

[EdFred]

If I were to fly your taildragger from engine start to engine shutdown. I am not endorsed to act as PIC in a taildragger, nor have I logged any time prior to the grandfather date. You must act as PIC, but may not log it.

 

[TMetzinger]

Happened to me the other day... While up with a safety pilot, and NOT under the hood, I let him fly for a while. He's rated in category and class, so he can log the time as PIC. I'm still ACTING as PIC cause he doesn't have the complex endorsement, but I shouldn't (and didn't) log PIC.

 

[tonycondon]

yep, anytime you are acting as PIC but not sole manipulator of the controls, or acting as PIC in a multicrew operation.

 

[TMetzinger]

Why can't you log PIC when you're acting as PIC in a multicrew situation if the airplane requires multicrew?

And, for you airline pilots, when you're typed in an airplane but in an SIC role, do you log the time you actually fly in your logbook as PIC? If not, why not? Seems to me you could log the time flying as PIC and the time not flying as SIC, and the Captain gets to log all the time as PIC.

 

[EdFred]

my buddy is typed in RJs, but typed SIC only.

 

[tonycondon]

Why can't you log PIC when you're acting as PIC in a multicrew situation if the airplane requires multicrew?

der da der, i mispoke. you've got it right. Im not even sure what I was trying to get at when I typed it, total brain fart.

 

[poadeleted20]

Somebody once told me that there's a 1970's legal opinion that says if you're the only pilot aboard, you can log PIC time even if you aren't the sole manipulator and don't qualify as instructor/ATP-121/2-pilots required/etc (e.g., Joe Pilot does a Young Eagle flight and the YE is flying the plane). I've seen it quoted, but I've never seen it from an FAA source, and if flies in the face of all plain reading of 61.51(e). If it's valid, TM's case of the PIC sitting there while the non-PIC-qual'd safety pilot flies or other "only one pilot required, two pilots aboard, PIC not flying" case is about the only type of situation I think would qualify.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

And, for you airline pilots, when you're typed in an airplane but in an SIC role, do you log the time you actually fly in your logbook as PIC?

I could, but I choose not to.

If not, why not? Seems to me you could log the time flying as PIC and the time not flying as SIC, and the Captain gets to log all the time as PIC.

While what you said is true, in my case it does not make any difference to me. Besides, in an augmented crew, where we take breaks, it becomes problematic splitting the time out. It is just easier to log it as SIC and be done with it.

 

[TMetzinger]

my buddy is typed in RJs, but typed SIC only.

That SIC restriction can go away really quickly - it's generally only for folks on their first turbojet type rating and who took the ride in the sim.

25 hours of performing PIC duties and the restriction is lifted, assuming it's the SIC wording I'm thinking of.

 

[Everskyward]

The FAA came up with a new SIC type rating a year or two ago because some foreign countries require a "type rating" for both pilots and this was a way to harmonize the US regs with international standard. This is not the same as a regular PIC type rating and doesn't revert to a regular type rating after a period of hours.

 

[midlifeflyer]

and if flies in the face of all plain reading of 61.51(e). I.

I'm the one who tosses that one around; I got it from someone who used to work for the FAA and even when I post it, I point out that I can't verify it either (I've tried).

But I wouldn't worry about that "flying in the face" part. A few of the rules we take for granted are based on interpretations of 61.51 rather than being the necessary result of a "plain reading" of the reg. (Safety pilot as PIC an operation requiring more than one pilot? Oh really?)

der da der, i mispoke. you've got it right. Im not even sure what I was trying to get at when I typed it, total brain fart.

Tony, I think I understood what you were trying to say and it's correct. I'll break it down

You can be acting as PIC but not be authorized to log it as PIC when you are not the sole manipulator of the controls unless you are PIC in a required multipilot crew.

That's ultimately just about a broad as, you can be acting as PIC but not be authorized to log it any time you don't fit into one of the 61.51 cubbyholes for logging PIC time.

(The Beane opinion - the "only rated pilot" opinion - aside)